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View Poll Results: What world city is most like Atlanta
Tokyo (or another Japanese city) 3 8.11%
Seoul (or another S Korean city) 0 0%
Sydney (or another Australian city) 3 8.11%
Toronto (or another Canadian city) 9 24.32%
Mexico City (or another city in Mexico) 0 0%
Sao Paulo, Brazil 3 8.11%
London (or another UK city) 1 2.70%
Paris (or another city in France) 0 0%
Frankfurt, Germany 6 16.22%
Amsterdam 1 2.70%
Johannesburg, South Africa 5 13.51%
Beijing (or another city in China) 0 0%
Rome (or another city in Italy) 1 2.70%
Other (please mention) 8 21.62%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-11-2018, 04:41 AM
 
Location: Brisbane
3,255 posts, read 4,948,541 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielsa1775 View Post
Possibly the poster is talking about this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bus...ca-2016-10/amp

Sydney has very strict building height codes due to the proximity of its airport to the city. In Brisbane we have a strict limit of 274m, i believe sydney is even lower.

Melbourne and the gold coast, which are not so constrained by the proximity of the airports ti the city are the tallest cities in Australia as far as building heights go.
The actual count per the RLB Crane index.

Toronto - 72
Seattle - 58
LA - 36

https://archpaper.com/2017/08/boomin...e-crane-count/

Compared to

Sydney - 363
Melbourne - 146
Brisbane - 72

https://infrastructuremagazine.com.a...rane-spotting/

The word oversupply comes to mind, though Australia's east coast cities are only heading in one direction at the moment, and that is up.
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Old 03-11-2018, 05:44 AM
 
161 posts, read 163,912 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Well sure - scale is always important but not every city on the list is Tokyo or Barcelona either... BCN isn't really a behemoth either - it is dense i'll give it that but it isn't a particularly large urban area. For what it is it is simply a compact and dense city. As for Sydney building more than Toronto i'd like to see something more substantive from you on that claim. I'll offer the following as something preliminary. Scroll down to the bottom of each.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ings_in_Sydney
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ngs_in_Toronto

Granted these sources only count greater than 150m and may not be 'definitive' but i'm seeing a lot more scrapers U/C and approved in Toronto over Sydney. Please don't even bother mentioning less than 150m - Toronto builds those things left, right and centre all over.
I was referring to these official figures.

There were 38,759 dwelling units completed in metro Sydney, of which 26,980 of those were 'multi-unit' (see map in link for areas included):
Metropolitan Housing Monitor Sydney Region - Department of Planning and Environment

Over the same period, the Toronto CMA had 37,132 dwelling units completed, of which 18,232 were apartments.
https://www03.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/hmip-p...art/1/1/Canada

Over the 2016-17 financial year, there were an 'estimated' 47,200 housing starts in Sydney:
https://www2.bis.com.au/verve/_resou...rket_Brief.pdf

Compared with 38,738 starts in Toronto during 2017. (2nd link above)

So if that's anything to go by, you can see the rate of construction in Sydney over the last few years is pulling even further away. It might be difficult to fathom from skyscraper interest sites how much Sydney has exploded with mid-higher rise apartments over the last few years, that despite so many other cities like Toronto or even Melbourne which are building much more tall towers than Sydney, that Sydney can still end with a higher rate of construction overall. Hopefully this gives a better clue.

I suppose tall towers aren't exactly everything that makes up a city. Barcelona has much less towers than both Sydney or Toronto, yet is more urban and much more dense overall. However Toronto did have a multiple year headstart over Sydney when it comes to their current booms.

The report in Danielsa's post claims that there's hundreds of cranes operating around Sydney right now. Here's the full report:
http://assets.rlb.com/production/201...ia-Q4-2017.pdf

Just out of interest, are there any comparable figures for the US? The best I can find (for free) are these figures for building permits.
https://www.census.gov/construction/...t3yu201712.txt
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Old 03-11-2018, 10:32 AM
 
3,235 posts, read 8,189,188 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
Thankfully no where in Italy or Europe for that matter is remotely as boring and bland as Atlanta. Atlanta is a conservative city with hard right wing suburbs in a crazy gun loving state where you are allowed to carry guns in airports and bars. Think about that Europe, and then think about how awful life is for us here in the more rational liberal northern cities of the US to be stuck in a nation with a place like Atlanta and Georgia. I hope and pray for the day the US breaks apart into smaller nations and I can be free of the people from Georgia and Atlanta.
Actually, Atlanta and Georgia is about the only good thing America has to offer. Otherwise, I'd rather live in Japan. I'd be happy if each state became it's own country so I don't have to live in the same country as California. California is a negative influence on the rest of country with it's politics, political correctness, wannabe Hollywood mentality, high cost of living, and the "everyone for themselves" culture. It's like all of America as turned in to California because "it's the gnarly way to be, dude!" (in my surfer voice). I believe Georgia is what Donald Trump wants to make all of America become, because Georgia is great!
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Old 03-11-2018, 01:22 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,141 posts, read 9,673,169 times
Reputation: 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielsa1775 View Post
Possibly the poster is talking about this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bus...ca-2016-10/amp

Sydney has very strict building height codes due to the proximity of its airport to the city. In Brisbane we have a strict limit of 274m, i believe sydney is even lower.

Melbourne and the gold coast, which are not so constrained by the proximity of the airports ti the city are the tallest cities in Australia as far as building heights go.
Interesting.. I looked at the number of cranes in Sydney and that is insane!! Looks like T.O is still building quite a bit more taller though ie building more greater than 150m and has a lot more greater than 150m proposed. Sydney has a way to go in terms of overall highrise count. Toronto has almost 1500 more highrises than Sydney and is still building like crazy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...rise_buildings

If you look down the list at a city called Mississauga - that is actually within the Greater Toronto area and is part of the Toronto CMA. That city alone has more highrises than Atlanta and half as many as Sydney

This is why i'm very cautious with certain sources because i'm not sure if they are looking at just the city or the greater metro area. City borders are very 'arbitrary' and vary country to country so are they comparing metro Sydney to metro Toronto or is it just the city of Toronto to metro Sydney etc etc. The larger the city and the more borders it has - the more difficult it can become to compare. This is true of Toronto more so than Sydney because it is a fair size larger urbanized area.

Last edited by fusion2; 03-11-2018 at 02:38 PM..
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Old 03-11-2018, 01:30 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,141 posts, read 9,673,169 times
Reputation: 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciTydude123 View Post

Over the same period, the Toronto CMA had 37,132 dwelling units completed, of which 18,232 were apartments.
https://www03.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/hmip-p...art/1/1/Canada

Over the 2016-17 financial year, there were an 'estimated' 47,200 housing starts in Sydney:
https://www2.bis.com.au/verve/_resou...rket_Brief.pdf

Compared with 38,738 starts in Toronto during 2017. (2nd link above)

So if that's anything to go by, you can see the rate of construction in Sydney over the last few years is pulling even further away. It might be difficult to fathom from skyscraper interest sites how much Sydney has exploded with mid-higher rise apartments over the last few years, that despite so many other cities like Toronto or even Melbourne which are building much more tall towers than Sydney, that Sydney can still end with a higher rate of construction overall. Hopefully this gives a better clue.
I see construction is hot in Sydney and other AUD cities for sure but Toronto is still building like crazy and we need to be careful where we are pulling information. According to this - New construction starts in Toronto is at 63K units.
Condo construction starts hit new record in Toronto | Financial Post Also, notice in the article they said - Toronto area. They are looking more at the metro rather than just the city.

Be careful using just Toronto CMA. Toronto anchors a region known as the golden horseshoe. It is largely a contiguous urbanized area that is home to over 9 million people and is a collection of CMA's. So you have to be careful where you are drawing your info from and what you are comparing. Toronto as an urbanized area/conurbation - is much larger than Sydney but also makes it more difficult to compare. So when you go about retrieving info about Toronto - you also have to look at not just the city and CMA - but also contiguous CMA in the urbanized area as they are part of Toronto's sphere of influence and are contiguous to it. They have economic and transit connectivity with the anchor city- Toronto.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Horseshoe

Additionally, Toronto CMA alone is seeing a major uptick in population growth now that the oil boom in the west is simmering down so I wouldn't get too comfortable with any notion Sydney is 'pulling' away from Toronto. As I said, Toronto as a metro and urbanized area is still much larger than Sydney and is still growing very fast and a lot of the growth in the Greater Toronto and horseshoe area is in its borders and not just the city of Toronto.

We are now seeing over 120K growth in the CMA alone now. You'll see housing starts reflecting that.. If you add other starts in other CMA's linked with Toronto - it would be many more so before you start pulling data and comparing - it is important you know what the entity of Toronto's metro area looks like because it is larger than what you may be assuming.
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...emo05a-eng.htm

Last edited by fusion2; 03-11-2018 at 02:02 PM..
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Old 03-11-2018, 03:00 PM
 
Location: Brisbane
3,255 posts, read 4,948,541 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Interesting.. I looked at the number of cranes in Sydney and that is insane!! Looks like T.O is still building quite a bit more taller though ie building more greater than 150m and has a lot more greater than 150m proposed. Sydney has a way to go in terms of overall highrise count. Toronto has almost 1500 more highrises than Sydney and is still building like crazy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...rise_buildings

If you look down the list at a city called Mississauga - that is actually within the Greater Toronto area and is part of the Toronto CMA. That city alone has more highrises than Atlanta and half as many as Sydney

This is why i'm very cautious with certain sources because i'm not sure if they are looking at just the city or the greater metro area. City borders are very 'arbitrary' and vary country to country so are they comparing metro Sydney to metro Toronto or is it just the city of Toronto to metro Sydney etc etc. The larger the city and the more borders it has - the more difficult it can become to compare. This is true of Toronto more so than Sydney because it is a fair size larger urbanized area.
Canadian cities on the whole are more dense than Australian ones for sure. I agree its almost impossible to tell what we are looking at with the stats, with all these interconnecting cities, together with different definitions of what composes a city.

I just worked out the difference a condo (A term we don't use in Australia) and an appartment.

Melbourne is actually Australia's population growth spot at the moment, its now 90% the size of Sydney. As far as urban density is concerned its a closer match to at Atlanta.

Last edited by danielsa1775; 03-11-2018 at 03:19 PM..
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Old 03-11-2018, 03:22 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,141 posts, read 9,673,169 times
Reputation: 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielsa1775 View Post
Canadian cities on the whole are more dense than Australian ones for sure. I agree its almost impossible to tell what we are looking at with the stats, with all these interconnecting cities, together with different definitions of what composes a city.

I just worked out the difference a condo (A term we don't use in Australia) and an appartment.

Melbourne is actually Australia's population growth spot at the moment, its now 90% the size of Sydney. As far as urban density is concerned its a closer match to at Atlanta.
I think as Sydney and Melbourne grow in population, you will also see satellite cities becoming larger and connecting more with the anchor (Sydney). Once that happens you will start to see those cities actually competing for growth with Sydney/Melbourne. This is what we are seeing in the Greater Toronto area. This is why when I look at these comparisons I always look with a critical eye - simply because I know my city and urbanized area. That all said, All these cities have impressive growth indicators including Atlanta. It is just that in Atlanta, the growth is spread out in possibly the most sprawling fashion than any other large western city in the world.
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Old 03-12-2018, 03:25 AM
 
161 posts, read 163,912 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
I see construction is hot in Sydney and other AUD cities for sure but Toronto is still building like crazy and we need to be careful where we are pulling information. According to this - New construction starts in Toronto is at 63K units.
Condo construction starts hit new record in Toronto | Financial Post Also, notice in the article they said - Toronto area. They are looking more at the metro rather than just the city.
There seems to be a catch with the figures you gave there - they're "seasonally adjusted annual rates". They're pulled from the same agency (CMHC) where I quoted my figures and linked to their website. These numbers that it's referring to would be found in the link I provided in my last post, listed under "Starts (SAAR)".

What your article was referring to is this:
https://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/corp/...03-08-0816.cfm

And from a brief skim this is how it explains its figures: "This trend measure is a six-month moving average of the monthly seasonally adjusted annual rates (SAAR) of housing starts." So as it says, it's a trend measure, and my limited guess is that it's not a figure for actual starts.

Toronto had 18,232 apartment completions last year, so if we assume it takes on average 2 years for construction to move from start to completion, was there really a more than three-fold increase in construction in Toronto in the last 2 years?

The actual amount of housing starts in Toronto during 2017 as I get it, would seem to be the figures I quoted - 20,174 apartment starts, 38,738 starts in total.

On the other hand, the figures I gave for Sydney's completions seems to be the actual number of completions. The monthly breakdown is available to download here:
https://data.nsw.gov.au/data/dataset...gion-dwellings

What's more is that this is what it says: "Net dwelling completions refer to the difference between the number of completed dwellings compared to the existing stock, adjusted for demolitions. For example, a two-unit development that demolishes one house is counted as one net dwelling completion." So depending on whether or not Toronto's figures includes subtracting demolished dwellings, the margin between the two cities might even be wider than it seems. I'm not too sure about that though.

And finally, given the rising trend in approvals in Sydney, I would expect the actual starts to be a healthy margin above those ~39,000 completions. So the 47,200 starts mentioned in my other link doesn't sound far off. That's where my "pulling away" statement comes from.

So from what I can see here for now, the figures I quoted for Toronto does seem to be the more comparable to Sydney's, than those "seasonally adjusted annual rates". See if you agree.



Quote:
Be careful using just Toronto CMA. Toronto anchors a region known as the golden horseshoe. It is largely a contiguous urbanized area that is home to over 9 million people and is a collection of CMA's. So you have to be careful where you are drawing your info from and what you are comparing. Toronto as an urbanized area/conurbation - is much larger than Sydney but also makes it more difficult to compare. So when you go about retrieving info about Toronto - you also have to look at not just the city and CMA - but also contiguous CMA in the urbanized area as they are part of Toronto's sphere of influence and are contiguous to it. They have economic and transit connectivity with the anchor city- Toronto.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Horseshoe

Additionally, Toronto CMA alone is seeing a major uptick in population growth now that the oil boom in the west is simmering down so I wouldn't get too comfortable with any notion Sydney is 'pulling' away from Toronto. As I said, Toronto as a metro and urbanized area is still much larger than Sydney and is still growing very fast and a lot of the growth in the Greater Toronto and horseshoe area is in its borders and not just the city of Toronto.

We are now seeing over 120K growth in the CMA alone now. You'll see housing starts reflecting that.. If you add other starts in other CMA's linked with Toronto - it would be many more so before you start pulling data and comparing - it is important you know what the entity of Toronto's metro area looks like because it is larger than what you may be assuming.
Population of census metropolitan areas
The Golden Horseshoe is a region comprising of multiple population centres with economic and social ties to an extent, but I think it's not necessarily a singular city. The Golden Horseshoe is more comparable to the US CSAs, or London's commuter belt... or the Pearl River Delta region in China which comprises of Hong Kong, Shenzhen, Guangzhou and some other cities - and they're all considered as individual cities. In Sydney's terms it would include Wollongong and Newcastle, which are a close distance to the south and north of Sydney, but are not considered as part of Sydney itself.

From what I can assume, Toronto's CMA or the GTA would represent Toronto fairly accurately as a single city (iirc difference between GTA and CMA is mainly Burlington or something though it's only a few hundred K difference). So it depends on whether you want to look at this from a regional perspective or as a singular city.

Of course you might want to point out that Hamilton should be considered a part of Toronto because it's "contiguous", but my guess why it's not under Toronto's CMA is because it's large and sufficient enough to be classed as its own population centre (within the region). It would seem to be similar enough to Wollongong to Sydney, Geelong to Melbourne or the Gold Coast to Brisbane (former two aren't contiguous but distances and their relationship to their larger neighbours is likely similar. Brisbane - Gold Coast is contiguous, but is considered as separate cities).

I suppose is Toronto is the more statistically dense, though you have to be mindful methods of measuring density, and borders like you mentioned, can vary. Again though if you're looking at this from a global scale, that statistical difference wouldn't be significant.

Interestingly the oil boom simmering down you mentioned is similar to what's happening in Australia over the last few years with the mining boom in Western Australia fading away. The growth is shifting back to the east coast cities, particularly Melbourne and Sydney.

For population, see below.

Quote:
Looks like T.O is still building quite a bit more taller though ie building more greater than 150m and has a lot more greater than 150m proposed. Sydney has a way to go in terms of overall highrise count. Toronto has almost 1500 more highrises than Sydney and is still building like crazy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...rise_buildings

If you look down the list at a city called Mississauga - that is actually within the Greater Toronto area and is part of the Toronto CMA. That city alone has more highrises than Atlanta and half as many as Sydney
Toronto definitely has more tall towers, no doubting that! But again, tall towers might not exactly be everything that makes up a city. Look at the rate of construction between Sydney and Toronto above, for example, and that's despite Toronto supposedly building so many more towers. Sydney's cityscape is being changed by the year right now.

Barcelona has much less towers than both Sydney or Toronto despite a similar population, yet is more urban and much more dense overall. There's much more to what makes a city than the number of towers-in-a-park, and since we're talking about similarities and differences here perhaps what matters at least as much is the built form - and there are obvious differences between suburban Sydney and Toronto (see my post on the last page for eg).

So, it would seem to me that both cities have their pros - Toronto is overall larger, a bit more statistically dense and has a larger downtown area (Sydney's is more compact), and yes, has more fancy tall towers. Whereas Sydney has an overall more urban built form spreading over a wider area. Which is why, especially on a global scale when you consider places like Tokyo or Paris, that the differences we mention here aren't significant in comparison, and that on this scale Sydney and Toronto... and perhaps Atlanta... are comparable... just like you said ... only that Sydney hogs all the shiny beaches, harbours, pretty public realms and that building with white sails... but no CN tower

I'd like to visit Toronto some day!



Quote:
Originally Posted by danielsa1775 View Post
Melbourne is actually Australia's population growth spot at the moment, its now 90% the size of Sydney.
Sydney grew by 92K and Melbourne by 126K in 2016. The 2017 figures haven't been released yet, but iirc the trends are showing that the figures should increase by several K for Sydney, while Melbourne would still be within that 120K+ range. So the actual difference isn't as much as some media publications make it seem, but still if the current rate continues, Melbourne could potentially overtake Sydney in 10 years or so due to the fact that there's already so little difference between the two.

A lot of the fact why Melbourne's gaining a little on Sydney every year goes down to the fact that Melbourne is still more affordable than Sydney. There's still a net undersupply of housing in Sydney due to under building for years that's only starting to be corrected now, but still has some way to go. In short, Sydney would need to continually build more than its close to 100K/yr population growth suggests.

Interestingly though Sydney still holds a relatively large margin over Melbourne economically, and is expanding faster too. Though the difference shouldn't be anywhere close to something like Toronto and Montreal.

Last edited by ciTydude123; 03-12-2018 at 04:51 AM..
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Old 03-12-2018, 09:26 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,141 posts, read 9,673,169 times
Reputation: 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciTydude123 View Post
There seems to be a catch with the figures you gave there - they're "seasonally adjusted annual rates". They're pulled from the same agency (CMHC) where I quoted my figures and linked to their website. These numbers that it's referring to would be found in the link I provided in my last post, listed under "Starts (SAAR)".

What your article was referring to is this:
https://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/corp/...03-08-0816.cfm

And from a brief skim this is how it explains its figures: "This trend measure is a six-month moving average of the monthly seasonally adjusted annual rates (SAAR) of housing starts." So as it says, it's a trend measure, and my limited guess is that it's not a figure for actual starts.

Toronto had 18,232 apartment completions last year, so if we assume it takes on average 2 years for construction to move from start to completion, was there really a more than three-fold increase in construction in Toronto in the last 2 years?

The actual amount of housing starts in Toronto during 2017 as I get it, would seem to be the figures I quoted - 20,174 apartment starts, 38,738 starts in total.

On the other hand, the figures I gave for Sydney's completions seems to be the actual number of completions. The monthly breakdown is available to download here:
https://data.nsw.gov.au/data/dataset...gion-dwellings

What's more is that this is what it says: "Net dwelling completions refer to the difference between the number of completed dwellings compared to the existing stock, adjusted for demolitions. For example, a two-unit development that demolishes one house is counted as one net dwelling completion." So depending on whether or not Toronto's figures includes subtracting demolished dwellings, the margin between the two cities might even be wider than it seems. I'm not too sure about that though.

And finally, given the rising trend in approvals in Sydney, I would expect the actual starts to be a healthy margin above those ~39,000 completions. So the 47,200 starts mentioned in my other link doesn't sound far off. That's where my "pulling away" statement comes from.

So from what I can see here for now, the figures I quoted for Toronto does seem to be the more comparable to Sydney's, than those "seasonally adjusted annual rates". See if you agree.
We can speculate a lot of things here. When you looked at the CMHC link and selected Toronto was it capturing just the city or the metro? I really don't know as I didn't go into such granularity. What I do know is that essentially these metro's are growing around the same rate. Looks like Toronto CMA is growing faster than Sydney atm so cranes and completed units aside or housing starts, the fundamentals are there for lots of construction in both cities/metro areas. Perhaps this is just a solid year for Sydney and Toronto is regrouping. Who knows but fundamentally, both metro' have insane growth so I don't see how Sydney could sustain significantly more construction than Toronto on an ongoing basis when by the looks of it - Toronto is growing faster.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ciTydude123 View Post
The Golden Horseshoe is a region comprising of multiple population centres with economic and social ties to an extent, but I think it's not necessarily a singular city. The Golden Horseshoe is more comparable to the US CSAs, or London's commuter belt... or the Pearl River Delta region in China which comprises of Hong Kong, Shenzhen, Guangzhou and some other cities - and they're all considered as individual cities. In Sydney's terms it would include Wollongong and Newcastle, which are a close distance to the south and north of Sydney, but are not considered as part of Sydney itself.

From what I can assume, Toronto's CMA or the GTA would represent Toronto fairly accurately as a single city (iirc difference between GTA and CMA is mainly Burlington or something though it's only a few hundred K difference). So it depends on whether you want to look at this from a regional perspective or as a singular city.

Of course you might want to point out that Hamilton should be considered a part of Toronto because it's "contiguous", but my guess why it's not under Toronto's CMA is because it's large and sufficient enough to be classed as its own population centre (within the region). It would seem to be similar enough to Wollongong to Sydney, Geelong to Melbourne or the Gold Coast to Brisbane (former two aren't contiguous but distances and their relationship to their larger neighbours is likely similar. Brisbane - Gold Coast is contiguous, but is considered as separate cities).

I suppose is Toronto is the more statistically dense, though you have to be mindful methods of measuring density, and borders like you mentioned, can vary. Again though if you're looking at this from a global scale, that statistical difference wouldn't be significant.

Interestingly the oil boom simmering down you mentioned is similar to what's happening in Australia over the last few years with the mining boom in Western Australia fading away. The growth is shifting back to the east coast cities, particularly Melbourne and Sydney.
You are right - the golden horseshoe is a region or conurbation and not really one city. The horseshoe in U.S terms would be like a CSA while the Greater Toronto and Hamilton area is more like a U.S MSA. The MSA here is entirely contiguous. As a matter of fact - the only reason it isn't one CMA is because Canada's criteria for measuring the linkage between CMA's is more conservative than the U.S. If we used U.S Census Bureau stats - Toronto's CMA would include Hamilton/Burlington and some other smaller CMA's. That population would be roughly 7.8 million. That all said, technically you are correct when using Canada's system - Hamilton and Burlington are not part of Toronto's CMA even though they are contiguous. I say that now but as Toronto's sphere of influence increases - there will come a time in the not too distant future even using Stats Can's more conservative methods that these CMA's will be linked. They are increasingly functioning as one unit in terms of economic and transit linkages. Hamilton is increasingly becoming a bedroom community for Toronto given the price of housing in Toronto and the GTA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ciTydude123 View Post
Toronto definitely has more tall towers, no doubting that! But again, tall towers might not exactly be everything that makes up a city. Look at the rate of construction between Sydney and Toronto above, for example, and that's despite Toronto supposedly building so many more towers. Sydney's cityscape is being changed by the year right now.
Toronto has more towers period. Scrapers and highrises. It will take more than a year or two of spurts for Syndey to overcome the deficit and as I said, all indications are in U/C, approved and proposed Toronto is building more taller buildings. Since Sydney's population growth is not greater than Toronto (assume metro areas for both), I don't see the fundamentals being there for Sydney to 'pull away' from Toronto in housing development. That makes no sense. Take into account as well- taller buildings have more units than smaller ones. I do know though, Toronto isn't just buildings scrapers/highrises. The entire GTA is booming with construction including a lot of townhomes. What It isn't building is SFH's anymore. The region can't expand any further due to protected greenspace and so development must be more dense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ciTydude123 View Post
Barcelona has much less towers than both Sydney or Toronto despite a similar population, yet is more urban and much more dense overall. There's much more to what makes a city than the number of towers-in-a-park, and since we're talking about similarities and differences here perhaps what matters at least as much is the built form - and there are obvious differences between suburban Sydney and Toronto (see my post on the last page for eg).
Oh I would agree. Don't think as I said that Toronto is just building high. There is quite a healthy spread of all kinds of development minus SFH. I don't know about obvious difference between suburban Sydney and Toronto. Toronto is a big metro area - there are lots of different urban forms depending on where you're at.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ciTydude123 View Post
So, it would seem to me that both cities have their pros - Toronto is overall larger, a bit more statistically dense and has a larger downtown area (Sydney's is more compact), and yes, has more fancy tall towers. Whereas Sydney has an overall more urban built form spreading over a wider area. Which is why, especially on a global scale when you consider places like Tokyo or Paris, that the differences we mention here aren't significant in comparison, and that on this scale Sydney and Toronto... and perhaps Atlanta... are comparable... just like you said ... only that Sydney hogs all the shiny beaches, harbours, pretty public realms and that building with white sails... but no CN tower

I'd like to visit Toronto some day!
I dunno.. I think if you visited Toronto and Atlanta and taking what you know about Sydney - you may not say that so much about Atlanta. Sure though, compared to Tokyo or Jakarta there would be more similarities than differences. My feeling about Australia and Sydney along with Melbourne the same though - would love to visit

Quote:
Originally Posted by ciTydude123 View Post
Sydney grew by 92K and Melbourne by 126K in 2016. The 2017 figures haven't been released yet, but iirc the trends are showing that the figures should increase by several K for Sydney, while Melbourne would still be within that 120K+ range. So the actual difference isn't as much as some media publications make it seem, but still if the current rate continues, Melbourne could potentially overtake Sydney in 10 years or so due to the fact that there's already so little difference between the two.

A lot of the fact why Melbourne's gaining a little on Sydney every year goes down to the fact that Melbourne is still more affordable than Sydney. There's still a net undersupply of housing in Sydney due to under building for years that's only starting to be corrected now, but still has some way to go. In short, Sydney would need to continually build more than its close to 100K/yr population growth suggests.

Interestingly though Sydney still holds a relatively large margin over Melbourne economically, and is expanding faster too. Though the difference shouldn't be anywhere close to something like Toronto and Montreal.
Melbourne growth is impressive. It is practically what I'm seeing for the Toronto CMA from 2016-2017. If Melbourne keeps growing like this it will become the largest city in Australia. There is quite a dogfight between the two! Montreal is still behind Toronto in terms of size and its growth is about 40-50 percent that of Toronto so there is no threat to Toronto's stature as largest in Canada for well into the future.
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Old 03-13-2018, 02:37 AM
 
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Agreed. I'm not sure how accurate wiki is but regarding those skyscraper lists on the internet, I get the impression that the Canadian cities are generally kept more up to date and comprehensive than the Aussie ones. There are of course more tall 100m or 150m+ towers in Toronto than Sydney but disregarding some differences in built form for a sec, proportionately most of Sydney's density comes from walk-ups and mid-high(er) rise blocks. Both cities seem to have a large amount of rowhouses, particularly in their inner cores.

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I don't know about obvious difference between suburban Sydney and Toronto. Toronto is a big metro area - there are lots of different urban forms depending on where you're at.
Less of an auto-centric layout than an average North American city and more of a transit and walking-friendly focus in the commercial and retail areas, in short. At least from what I can see. See my post on the last page.

The demand for new housing in Sydney is massive due to underbuilding for years. It has to build to more than just to enough cater for its population growth, there's also the issue of the existing undersupply which has shot prices up drastically. Sydney continues to attract the most international migrants, likely due to its jobs and reputation, but it loses its existing residents to other states and cities every year, some of which go to Melbourne instead. The main reason is because of the housing prices - the underlying demand for housing in Sydney is too strong and the city's becoming too expensive for its own good... so it's in the interests of the city to build as much as soon as it can. It's a bit like a 'build it and they will come' situation right now.

Time will tell what happens, but Melbourne and Sydney are probably going to be neck and neck in population for a while.

Last edited by ciTydude123; 03-13-2018 at 04:04 AM..
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