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View Poll Results: What world city is most like Atlanta
Tokyo (or another Japanese city) 3 8.11%
Seoul (or another S Korean city) 0 0%
Sydney (or another Australian city) 3 8.11%
Toronto (or another Canadian city) 9 24.32%
Mexico City (or another city in Mexico) 0 0%
Sao Paulo, Brazil 3 8.11%
London (or another UK city) 1 2.70%
Paris (or another city in France) 0 0%
Frankfurt, Germany 6 16.22%
Amsterdam 1 2.70%
Johannesburg, South Africa 5 13.51%
Beijing (or another city in China) 0 0%
Rome (or another city in Italy) 1 2.70%
Other (please mention) 8 21.62%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-13-2018, 03:03 PM
 
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I think, given enough time, every thread on this board would ultimately converge into one of four flavors of Toronto threads. They would be an a.) "Toronto-oriented" thread, with subtle reference to Toronto throughout, or b.) a "Toronto versus" thread, c.) a "Toronto is the most multicultural city in the universe and DON'T MESS WITH ME" thread, or, d.) a "Toronto, I have some incredibly mundane and precious data points to share to prove why we Toronto residents *live to believe* that Toronto is really New York City's peer city" thread. I don't think any city -- in fact, it's not even close -- has as many vociferous flag waivers as Toronto.

Keep on, keepin' on you crazy Canadians!

Last edited by BigLake; 03-13-2018 at 03:14 PM..
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Old 03-14-2018, 05:18 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,139 posts, read 9,662,527 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigLake View Post
I think, given enough time, every thread on this board would ultimately converge into one of four flavors of Toronto threads. They would be an a.) "Toronto-oriented" thread, with subtle reference to Toronto throughout, or b.) a "Toronto versus" thread, c.) a "Toronto is the most multicultural city in the universe and DON'T MESS WITH ME" thread, or, d.) a "Toronto, I have some incredibly mundane and precious data points to share to prove why we Toronto residents *live to believe* that Toronto is really New York City's peer city" thread. I don't think any city -- in fact, it's not even close -- has as many vociferous flag waivers as Toronto.

Keep on, keepin' on you crazy Canadians!
You know, if you read the posts in here there are other posters from from a country with cities that starts with gimme a S and gimme a M going on about their cities. Would I expect you to point them out - no of course you wouldn't. Besides, you've got someone who does that for Chicago that flag waving thing way more than anyone does it for Toronto - I don't see you going off on him everytime he sticks Chicago into the picture even when it really isn't part of the discussion. At least Toronto is on the list of cities here and was identified by a few people as being most like Atlanta - so it stands to reason it comes up in this thread. Did I inject Toronto in other threads where it isn't a part of the discussion. Your bias is pretty blatant and obvious but keep on truckin!

For me, please point out a thread where I inject Toronto into it whereby it is NOT a part of the topic of the thread. I'd love for you to do that and point it out to me. Pretty much all my posts I have said anything about Toronto is because it is warranted in THAT thread. Toronto barely comes up in the World forum btw. It does come up often in C v C but that is because C v C is for N.A cities and well - Toronto is the 4th largest city in N.A - it is bound to come up. Also, find me threads where Toronto posters create the thread about Toronto. Rarely if EVER happens. It is always someone from outside the city creating threads about it. I don't see you bringing that up but given your blatant bias I wouldn't expect you too. Additionally, I have never compared Toronto as being a peer of NYC. Again it is this bias thing ya got going on. Finally, if I have said something untrue or present factually incorrect information about Toronto by all means - point it out instead of engaging in speculation.

Calling people crazy - just in line with your persona on here I guess. Speaking of suburban sprawl - I think your city Chicago is more apt as a comparative city to Atlanta. Of the top 40 largest urban areas in the world, Chicago ranks as probably the least dense large city in the world. It gives Atlanta a run for sprawl so by all means - discuss...

Last edited by fusion2; 03-14-2018 at 05:55 AM..
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Old 03-14-2018, 07:39 AM
 
1,887 posts, read 2,317,336 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
You know, if you read the posts in here there are other posters from from a country with cities that starts with gimme a S and gimme a M going on about their cities. Would I expect you to point them out - no of course you wouldn't. Besides, you've got someone who does that for Chicago that flag waving thing way more than anyone does it for Toronto - I don't see you going off on him everytime he sticks Chicago into the picture even when it really isn't part of the discussion. At least Toronto is on the list of cities here and was identified by a few people as being most like Atlanta - so it stands to reason it comes up in this thread. Did I inject Toronto in other threads where it isn't a part of the discussion. Your bias is pretty blatant and obvious but keep on truckin!

For me, please point out a thread where I inject Toronto into it whereby it is NOT a part of the topic of the thread. I'd love for you to do that and point it out to me. Pretty much all my posts I have said anything about Toronto is because it is warranted in THAT thread. Toronto barely comes up in the World forum btw. It does come up often in C v C but that is because C v C is for N.A cities and well - Toronto is the 4th largest city in N.A - it is bound to come up. Also, find me threads where Toronto posters create the thread about Toronto. Rarely if EVER happens. It is always someone from outside the city creating threads about it. I don't see you bringing that up but given your blatant bias I wouldn't expect you too. Additionally, I have never compared Toronto as being a peer of NYC. Again it is this bias thing ya got going on. Finally, if I have said something untrue or present factually incorrect information about Toronto by all means - point it out instead of engaging in speculation.

Calling people crazy - just in line with your persona on here I guess. Speaking of suburban sprawl - I think your city Chicago is more apt as a comparative city to Atlanta. Of the top 40 largest urban areas in the world, Chicago ranks as probably the least dense large city in the world. It gives Atlanta a run for sprawl so by all means - discuss...
Thank you for proving my point - on queue -- *exactly*. You are *way* too defensive and it lends you to going overboard with ridiculous statements that will make you a laughingstock (to wit... "Chicago ranks as probably the least dense large city in the world." That is unbelievable and literally shreds any credibility you may have had.) Good god man, check yourself and lighten up a little. And btw fusion, I kind of like your posts and your passion, but you are on Mars now.
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Old 03-14-2018, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,139 posts, read 9,662,527 times
Reputation: 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigLake View Post
Thank you for proving my point - on queue -- *exactly*. You are *way* too defensive and it lends you to going overboard with ridiculous statements that will make you a laughingstock (to wit... "Chicago ranks as probably the least dense large city in the world." That is unbelievable and literally shreds any credibility you may have had.) Good god man, check yourself and lighten up a little. And btw fusion, I kind of like your posts and your passion, but you are on Mars now.
In order for someone to be defensive the opposing party needs to go on the offense first. Think about what ya said and what I said in response. I think it was measured. Instead of having a meaningful discussion about details you are sounding off with personal attacks and calling people crazy. Honestly - your post was just not warranted and you were out of line here.

Look at the Aussie posters in here. They aren't shy about sounding off about what is good about their cities in terms of growth and development. Can't fault them for it and they have presented some pretty compelling information regarding the impressive transformation going on with Australia's largest cities. I'm not attacking them or calling them crazy. Why should I lol - i'm happy for their success. So Biglake - be happy for Toronto for a change lol..

When accounting for the entire contiguous urbanized area of Chicago (not counties like Cook which is dense but isn't a metro) - yes it is one of the least dense urban areas out of the 40 largest urban areas in the world. If you don't like that stat - write the U.S Census Bureau and tell them to model city population based on StatsCan methods or really pretty much any countries measures - the U.S employs one of the most liberal and sprawling definitions of a metro area of any jurisdiction in the world.. Chicago's population would shrivel a bit - but at least she'd be more dense

Now speaking of Mars - man i'd love to go. Wouldn't that be cool?

Last edited by fusion2; 03-14-2018 at 07:06 PM..
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Old 03-14-2018, 09:29 PM
 
1,658 posts, read 723,798 times
Reputation: 1075
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
In order for someone to be defensive the opposing party needs to go on the offense first. Think about what ya said and what I said in response. I think it was measured. Instead of having a meaningful discussion about details you are sounding off with personal attacks and calling people crazy. Honestly - your post was just not warranted and you were out of line here.

Look at the Aussie posters in here. They aren't shy about sounding off about what is good about their cities in terms of growth and development. Can't fault them for it and they have presented some pretty compelling information regarding the impressive transformation going on with Australia's largest cities. I'm not attacking them or calling them crazy. Why should I lol - i'm happy for their success. So Biglake - be happy for Toronto for a change lol..

When accounting for the entire contiguous urbanized area of Chicago (not counties like Cook which is dense but isn't a metro) - yes it is one of the least dense urban areas out of the 40 largest urban areas in the world. If you don't like that stat - write the U.S Census Bureau and tell them to model city population based on StatsCan methods or really pretty much any countries measures - the U.S employs one of the most liberal and sprawling definitions of a metro area of any jurisdiction in the world.. Chicago's population would shrivel a bit - but at least she'd be more dense

Now speaking of Mars - man i'd love to go. Wouldn't that be cool?
Chicago need not apologize for its stretches of close-knit single-family homes and especially its unique bungalow-belt. These homes were well built with craftsman added features and Frank Lloyd Wright inspired Prairie style features and fine woodworking. They were a GREAT home for a rising US middle-class of the 1920s.

Narrow lots... and homes were not large but green front lawns and smallish back-yards as most chose to add garages that shrunk them and Chicago's standard alleys .... the most of any city in the world. They are not merely walking paths either. The cities power-line grid runs down them too. Freeing fronts from ugly poles. It says American and that's just fine.

Your Toronto has its share of neighborhoods of single-family homes and row-home areas. So it isn't a top world urban city either. Just in North America .... because so much added is as high-rises. It is high in urban living. But so too is Chicago.

Merely you boast for Toronto as the BestEST , GreatEST, UrbanEST, city in North America.... after NYC and the WORLD better take notice. Even other Canadians have said that some of what Toronto gets boasted for. Has some backlashes in being overhyped in some areas.

Best isn't just being most dense. But well-built and proving it holds well the test of time of what it built. Is far more important then mass building density merely as new as high-rises.... that tend to look too similar. Moderate density can many times be a great choice in North America too. Something between sprawl and multi-residential complexes living.

A city as Chicago and yes Toronto .... still give a variety of choices. Nothing wrong with that. Chicago doesn't care how much Torontonians, want to see it surpassing Chicago. As its growth in importing professional immigrants to grow the city is impressive. Again.... TIME FOR TORONTO'S COMING OUT. TORONTO VS. THE WORLD'S CITIES NOT IN NORTH AMERICA.

Atlanta is not seen as a dense city or a high-rise living city. But it does have a city of lots of trees and a top tree-canopy in the US. Even Chicago is known for tree-lined streets in its standard set-back frontage. But a more denser build then Atlanta. But Atlanta also is NOT on a street-grid as standard as a Chicago is and is more a sprawling city with larger lots homes sit on.

I certainly wouldn't see it as like Toronto or Chicago...... and certainly ATLANTA I DO NOT SEE like any city outside of North America. Just not enough like Toronto to vote for it or any other in the poll.

CHICAGO got brought into this thread ..... not by me. Time for Toronto to claim besting other cities.... with Chicago still able to go up against a fast growing Toronto and still win for various reasons. Then you get the ..... in a couple years.... Toronto's growth .... WILL have it win in more.

Last edited by DavePa; 03-14-2018 at 09:47 PM..
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Old 03-14-2018, 10:34 PM
 
1,887 posts, read 2,317,336 times
Reputation: 2131
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
In order for someone to be defensive the opposing party needs to go on the offense first. Think about what ya said and what I said in response. I think it was measured. Instead of having a meaningful discussion about details you are sounding off with personal attacks and calling people crazy. Honestly - your post was just not warranted and you were out of line here.

Look at the Aussie posters in here. They aren't shy about sounding off about what is good about their cities in terms of growth and development. Can't fault them for it and they have presented some pretty compelling information regarding the impressive transformation going on with Australia's largest cities. I'm not attacking them or calling them crazy. Why should I lol - i'm happy for their success. So Biglake - be happy for Toronto for a change lol..

When accounting for the entire contiguous urbanized area of Chicago (not counties like Cook which is dense but isn't a metro) - yes it is one of the least dense urban areas out of the 40 largest urban areas in the world. If you don't like that stat - write the U.S Census Bureau and tell them to model city population based on StatsCan methods or really pretty much any countries measures - the U.S employs one of the most liberal and sprawling definitions of a metro area of any jurisdiction in the world.. Chicago's population would shrivel a bit - but at least she'd be more dense

Now speaking of Mars - man i'd love to go. Wouldn't that be cool?

fusion, I meant my post as a joke... though admittedly with an obvious pointed jab at Toronto posters in aggregate. You have to know what I'm talking about, right? You had to laugh a little at my post, no? My jolt wasn't at Toronto, and also, not personal to anyone on these boards. Right? That said, I will try to be a bit more cognizant in the future as I know it's difficult to discern TIC humor on these boards. In any case, accept my apologies if offended.


WRT to the Chicago being a sprawling city, you need to reel that one back in because anyone who has ever been to Chicago knows (I mean really knows) it's one of the most vibrant cities in N. America, urban to its core and there are very few cities outside of NYC that could even remotely compare to Chicago. You are smart enough, and have a definite knowledge and affinity for cities to know this.

BTW-- with regard to me being "happy for Toronto for a change", check out my recent Toronto post in the Amazon HQ thread. And then check the date and time stamp. C'mon man.
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Old 03-15-2018, 12:03 AM
 
Location: BC Canada
831 posts, read 817,946 times
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Outside of the US there is no comparable city to Atlanta, thank God.
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Old 03-15-2018, 04:43 AM
 
Location: South Padre Island, TX
1,993 posts, read 696,291 times
Reputation: 1110
This is a great thread, OP. Don't mind these naysayers, many of them are old-timers that are too fixed in their obsolete worldviews.
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Old 03-15-2018, 05:30 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,139 posts, read 9,662,527 times
Reputation: 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigLake View Post
fusion, I meant my post as a joke... though admittedly with an obvious pointed jab at Toronto posters in aggregate. You have to know what I'm talking about, right? You had to laugh a little at my post, no? My jolt wasn't at Toronto, and also, not personal to anyone on these boards. Right? That said, I will try to be a bit more cognizant in the future as I know it's difficult to discern TIC humor on these boards. In any case, accept my apologies if offended.


WRT to the Chicago being a sprawling city, you need to reel that one back in because anyone who has ever been to Chicago knows (I mean really knows) it's one of the most vibrant cities in N. America, urban to its core and there are very few cities outside of NYC that could even remotely compare to Chicago. You are smart enough, and have a definite knowledge and affinity for cities to know this.

BTW-- with regard to me being "happy for Toronto for a change", check out my recent Toronto post in the Amazon HQ thread. And then check the date and time stamp. C'mon man.
I read a lot of posts in a lot of threads Biglake so it is easy to take things out of context. No offense taken and the fact you wrote this makes you pretty cool so all is good. Anyway, if you know my posts in general I don't take things too seriously and appreciate what you said about the passion in my posts.

I haven't read the amazon thread in awhile but i'll take a look.. As for Chicago of course it is one of the most vibrant cities in N.A. It is actually quite dense in the urban core but takes a hit in overall density because too far flung out sprawl like areas are included in the metro population. If we look at Cook County which includes the city of Chicago than yes, it is quite a dense and impressive urban core and yes, I like the city quite a bit. It is in my top 5 N.A cities which are NYC, Chicago, Toronto, S.F and Montreal essentially in that order.
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Old 03-15-2018, 05:57 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,139 posts, read 9,662,527 times
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Originally Posted by DavePa View Post
Chicago need not apologize for its stretches of close-knit single-family homes and especially its unique bungalow-belt. These homes were well built with craftsman added features and Frank Lloyd Wright inspired Prairie style features and fine woodworking. They were a GREAT home for a rising US middle-class of the 1920s.

Narrow lots... and homes were not large but green front lawns and smallish back-yards as most chose to add garages that shrunk them and Chicago's standard alleys .... the most of any city in the world. They are not merely walking paths either. The cities power-line grid runs down them too. Freeing fronts from ugly poles. It says American and that's just fine.
I'm not talking about the fantastic SFH homes within the city of Chicago or in the extended urban core. I'm talking about the loooow density sprawl to infinity stuff in the exurban parts of Chicago. They are contiguous but low density and naw away at the overall density of the city. I attribute that to your liberal definitions of metro areas in the U.S. They include too many exurban areas simply due to commuter percentage. Those commuter thresholds are very low and lower than StatsCan thresholds. That is instantly why you see Canadian cities as generally more dense than U.S cities. A simple increase in those thresholds would instantly make your cities more dense albeit smaller in overall population. That is all i'm saying. It has nothing to do with whether or not the most urban part of Chicago is urban and dense - for a N.A city Cook county is among the best examples of urbanity and core density.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavePa View Post
Your Toronto has its share of neighborhoods of single-family homes and row-home areas. So it isn't a top world urban city either. Just in North America .... because so much added is as high-rises. It is high in urban living. But so too is Chicago.

Merely you boast for Toronto as the BestEST , GreatEST, UrbanEST, city in North America.... after NYC and the WORLD better take notice. Even other Canadians have said that some of what Toronto gets boasted for. Has some backlashes in being overhyped in some areas. Best isn't just being most dense. But well-built and proving it holds well the test of time of what it built. Is far more important then mass building density merely as new as high-rises.... that tend to look too similar. Moderate density can many times be a great choice in North America too. Something between sprawl and multi-residential complexes living.
Of course Toronto has lots of SFH nabe's.. They like pretty much any N.A city dominate the suburban landscape. They are however more compact in Toronto because lot and house sizes are generally smaller. Additionally, Toronto has a lot of townhome communities which are more dense. There are also tons of mid-rise stuff and of course lots of highrises. Toronto's highrise numbers for a N.A city is quite a bit and of course this adds to density. It isn't 'best' but it is more conducive to supporting higher density mass transit. The city can't sprawl to infinity due to protected green space which is among the most arable in a nation that isn't as arable as the U.S (Canadian Shield, Tundra, Arctic) so protecting farmlands surrounding the Greater Toronto Area is of Provincial and National importance. So the only way for Toronto to go is grow up and densify/intensify. I think this is a perfectly logical and rational explanation for why Toronto is developing how it is. Whether someother people in Canada like it or not is really irrelevant. If they can't understand logic and common sense and want to behave like juveniles why should I entertain that? Saying Toronto is the largest and most important city in the country or is growing the fastest is simply the truth. If they don't like the truth about something so not controversial how are they going to handle other more controversial issues. People need to grow up and move on.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DavePa View Post
A city as Chicago and yes Toronto .... still give a variety of choices. Nothing wrong with that. Chicago doesn't care how much Torontonians, want to see it surpassing Chicago. As its growth in importing professional immigrants to grow the city is impressive. Again.... TIME FOR TORONTO'S COMING OUT. TORONTO VS. THE WORLD'S CITIES NOT IN NORTH AMERICA.
If Chicago cares about Toronto being a larger city and probably ultimately a larger urban area in about 20 years than they need to get a life. For their sake, they should simply focus on making their great city better. In some ways they are but i'd like to see the Chicago MSA nudge up the growth rate. I actually think it is a more interesting city than pretty much all the other sunbelt one's surpassing it in growth. As for your comments about Toronto - coming out.. Stop being a child Dave. Toronto is already the main city in its country - what does it need to come out for. As it becomes larger and even more important in Canada - there will probably be more player haters in Canada. It is the way things are. I'd rather they love us but hey - what can I say - some humans are petty creatures - and some Canadian humans too lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavePa View Post
Atlanta is not seen as a dense city or a high-rise living city. But it does have a city of lots of trees and a top tree-canopy in the US. Even Chicago is known for tree-lined streets in its standard set-back frontage. But a more denser build then Atlanta. But Atlanta also is NOT on a street-grid as standard as a Chicago is and is more a sprawling city with larger lots homes sit on.
Believe it or not Toronto's green canopy is quite hefty- I think of the large cities in N.A it has among the most green canopy. I do know Atlanta is very green. I also know however that the city planners are concerned about endless sprawl. They come up to Toronto often to look at how we are developing and densifying. You can only sprawl in a low density fashion so much when you are growing like a weed. I think you'll see Atlanta building more compactly in the future out of necessity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavePa View Post
with Chicago still able to go up against a fast growing Toronto and still win for various reasons.
Of course.. Chicago is an established legacy city in the largest economy in the world. The third largest city with the past Chicago has had is formidable competition. I'm under no illusions in some ways Toronto will not pass Chicago in things like highrise architecture in the core - Those buildings were built at a time where there was such pride and workmanship. The architecture of today is a reflection of modern day societies. Not much we can do about it. Some are better than others but the general quality and beauty simply isn't there. Chicago's GDP is also quite a bit larger than Toronto. There are some reasons beyond just size - it is more to do with National boundaries. At some point Toronto may have a larger GDP but I think that'll be well passed the time it becomes a larger urban area than Chicago.

I have NEVER claimed Toronto is better in all areas than Chicago but it is better in some. I've explained in quite a bit of detail in many posts where I think each city bests the other in many threads. You simply choose to ignore when I stump for Chicago and only highlight when I stump for Toronto. Only you can answer that question Dave - I can't

Last edited by fusion2; 03-15-2018 at 07:26 PM..
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