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View Poll Results: What do you consider part of the western world?
Northern Europe 33 86.84%
Western Europe 34 89.47%
Southern Europe 32 84.21%
Central Europe 26 68.42%
Balkans 15 39.47%
Eastern Europe 16 42.11%
Russia 7 18.42%
Northern North America 34 89.47%
Central America + Mexico 15 39.47%
Caribbean 15 39.47%
Andean States 14 36.84%
The Guianas 12 31.58%
Brazil 15 39.47%
Southern Cone 14 36.84%
Northern Africa 0 0%
Western Africa 1 2.63%
Central Africa 0 0%
Eastern Africa 1 2.63%
Southern Africa 2 5.26%
South Africa 8 21.05%
Israel 13 34.21%
Turkey 1 2.63%
Caucuses 0 0%
Western Asia 0 0%
Central Asia 0 0%
Southern Asia 0 0%
Southeast Asia 0 0%
Eastern Asia 0 0%
Phillippines 2 5.26%
Australasia 20 52.63%
Melanesia 0 0%
Micronesia 0 0%
Polynesia 2 5.26%
Latin America is an off shoot of the western world, but not part of it 9 23.68%
Orthodox Europe is an off shoot of the western world, but not part of it 7 18.42%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-22-2018, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Seattle WA, USA
3,602 posts, read 1,815,967 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenFresno View Post
Why is Iran lumped in with the Arab world? Anyone with even a touch of Middle Eastern knowledge would understand that Iran is radically different from its Sunni Arab neighbors. In both culture, history and religion. I would say Iran is as different from Saudi Arabia as France is from Russia. Yet the later are part of two distinct cultural spheres.
you can learn more about it here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_Civilizations

I agree it is a bit flawed how the author defines his civilizations.

Here is a map that I found on the same topic but in the Russian Wikipedia page, they seem to make the distinction.

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Old 08-22-2018, 04:25 PM
 
Location: San Jose
1,457 posts, read 441,422 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94 View Post
you can learn more about it here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_Civilizations

I agree it is a bit flawed how the author defines his civilizations.

Here is a map that I found on the same topic but in the Russian Wikipedia page, they seem to make the distinction.
Yeah this map is generally much better. The problem with using national boundaries as dividers between various Civilizations, is it it ignores how regions of a single country can have different civilizations. Portions of Russia technically could be included in 4 maybe 5 different civilizations You have groups like Coptic Christians in Egypt who number 20 million and don't comfortably fit into any specific civilization. Should the Francophone world, with its distinct culture and history be crudely lumped in with the Anglosphere? When the two themselves presented a clash of civilizations for long periods of history. How much of an overlap does Sicily have with Norway that they can both be considered both part of Western Civ. Yet Sicily shares a far greater historical, cultural and societal connection with Lebanese Catholics then with Protestant Norwegians. Yet Lebanese Catholics are in a different civilization.

With the sheer volume of genetic, linguistic, historic and cultural variation in Sub-Saharan Africa, for all of them to be so crudely thrown in together. The Clash of Civilizations map is not so much a realistic depiction of the various civilizations but more how a white American male views the rest of the world.
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Old 08-22-2018, 04:51 PM
 
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North America, Russia, Western Europe, Australia, NZ.

Non-west: Everything else (eastern europe, south america, africa, asia).

And before someone asks: Yes, Russia as they originate from the vikings, but not eastern europe since most of EE comes from Asia.
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Old 08-22-2018, 05:00 PM
 
Location: Kansas/China
4,537 posts, read 2,309,133 times
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There are two basic ways to look at what the "West" is. A historical view, which changes over time. For most of history, "The West" simply referred to Europe, or Latin Christianity, as opposed to the "East" which was Eastern regions (aka west Asia) before Orthodoxy and Islam. The Romans used the terms Occidental (which more or less means west) for most Europeans and Christians. The Romans used Oriental (which means East) for those east of Europe, and later Muslims and Orthodox. Note: I don't believe the Berber people in North and West Africa were called Oriental despite being early Muslim converts.

There has never been a concrete definition of West vs East, or Occidental vs Oriental. It has changed throughout history, the biggest changes coming with the reformation, colonization, and the Cold War.

My modern definition of Western is quite broad (which I think it always has been). The geographical part of the term is completely obsolete and has been since the colonization time period. Basically, the West is anywhere with major European cultural and religious traditions. Orthodox is a little blurry, but I consider most, but not necessarily all Orthodox Western. I was Orthodox for many years, and I consider myself a Westerner through and through, but most Russian Orthodox I'm sure don't consider themselves Western. I wouldn't call S Korea Western as a nation, but they are very westernized, and many South Koreans are Westerners. The same is true for Hong Kong, South Africa, Israel, and the Philippines. Those places are the peripherals of the western world. All of the Americas are Western with just a couple exceptions, namely Cuba as I don't believe communism is compatible with Western culture. The values don't line up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture

Fun fact, Chinese people call all Europeans, including Russians, Westerners.
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Old 08-22-2018, 08:45 PM
 
306 posts, read 113,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattks View Post

Fun fact, Chinese people call all Europeans, including Russians, Westerners.

The same way it is not uncommon for Westerners to call all East Asian people "Chinese", short-cuts.
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Old 08-22-2018, 09:00 PM
 
Location: San Diego, California Republic
16,144 posts, read 21,405,837 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielj72 View Post
I believe any nation that speaks a European language (Romance, Germanic or Slavic) and has a Christian tradition is part of the Western world. That means all of Europe, the Americas and Australia. Western civilization is the civilization of European people’s.

The Cold War confuses what western civilization is and is not. When discussing the Cold War “the west” means the NATO powers. In this context Russia or the Soviet Union is not part of the west. However if we are talking about Western Civilization then Russia is absolutely part of it, their status as a European people makes their membership in western civilization undeniable.

Latin America is a largely Spanish based catholic society. Nothing more needs to be said, obviously part of Western Civilization.
^^^This. Anything disputing this is just grasping at straws at this point.
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Old 08-23-2018, 07:08 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
15,675 posts, read 18,232,713 times
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If you live in a country in which Mozart, Bach and Beethoven are considered "classical music" (without any qualifiers) and generally the highest form of musical art, then that is probably a western country.
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Old 08-23-2018, 07:28 AM
 
Location: Seattle WA, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenFresno View Post
Yeah this map is generally much better. The problem with using national boundaries as dividers between various Civilizations, is it it ignores how regions of a single country can have different civilizations. Portions of Russia technically could be included in 4 maybe 5 different civilizations You have groups like Coptic Christians in Egypt who number 20 million and don't comfortably fit into any specific civilization. Should the Francophone world, with its distinct culture and history be crudely lumped in with the Anglosphere? When the two themselves presented a clash of civilizations for long periods of history. How much of an overlap does Sicily have with Norway that they can both be considered both part of Western Civ. Yet Sicily shares a far greater historical, cultural and societal connection with Lebanese Catholics then with Protestant Norwegians. Yet Lebanese Catholics are in a different civilization.

With the sheer volume of genetic, linguistic, historic and cultural variation in Sub-Saharan Africa, for all of them to be so crudely thrown in together. The Clash of Civilizations map is not so much a realistic depiction of the various civilizations but more how a white American male views the rest of the world.
well I think religion is just one facet of a civilization, and there could even be multiple religions/denominations in a civilization. I think a key indicator is to look at the intermarriages between the royal/Nobel families.



At least in this diagram you have royals of Spain, France, Britain, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Russia and the Nordic nations. The more the families are intermarried the more they probably viewed each other as being part of the same civilization, as far as I'm aware there weren't any notable marriages with say the Ottomans, Ethiopians or the Japanese.

I also think that looking at the writing systems can also be an indicator.
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Old 08-23-2018, 08:56 AM
 
Location: Seattle WA, USA
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civilization/culture in various languages.

Greek: politismós/Politismós

Latin: civilization/cultura
English: civilization/culture
Danish: civilisation/kultur
Swedish: civilisation/kultur
French: civilisation/Culture
Spanish: civilización/cultura
Norwegian: sivilisasjon/kultur
Portuguese: civilização/cultura
Romanian: civilizaţie/cultură
Italian: civiltà/cultura
Polish: cywilizacja/kultura
Latvian: civilizācija/kultūra
Lithuanian: civilizacija/kultūra
Serbian: civilizacija/kultura
Finnish: sivistys/kulttuuri
German: Zivilisation/Kultur
Estonian: tsivilisatsioon/kultuur
Russian: tsivilizatsiya/kul'tura
Ukrainian: tsyvilizatsiya/kulʹtura
Bulgarian: tsivilizatsiya/kultura
Georgian: tsivilizatsia/k’ult’ura
Filipino: sibilisasyon/kultura

Icelandic: siðmenningin/menning

Dutch: beschaving/cultuur

Albanian: qytetërim/kulturë

Armenian: k’aghak’akrt’ut’yun/mshakuyt’y

Kyrgyz: tsivilizatsiya/madaniyat
Turkish: medeniyet/kültür
Azerbaijani: mədəniyyət/mədəniyyət
Uzbek: madaniyat/madaniyat

Kazakh: örkenïet/mädenïet

Amharic: šilit’anē/bahili

Punjabi: Sabhi'atā/Sabhi'ācāra
Hindi: sabhyata/sanskrti
Nepali: Sabhyatā/Sanskr̥ti
Bangala: Sabhyatā/Sanskr̥ti

Kurdish: beşerî/çande

Hebrew: tarbút/tarbút

Persian: tamaddon/Farheng
Tajik: tamaddun/farhang
Malay: tamadun/budaya

Javanese: peradaban/budaya
Indonesian: peradaban/budaya
Sudanese: peradaban/kabudayaan

Arabic: hadara/hidaruh

Mongolian: soyol irgenshil/soyol

Japanese: Bunmei/Bunka

Korean: munmyeong/munhwa

Chinese: Wénmíng/Wénhuà

Hausa: wayewa/al'ada

Thai: Xāryṭhrrm/Wạtʹhnṭhrrm

Loa: phonla heuon/vadthanathoa

Vietnamese: nền văn minh/văn hóa

Swahili: ustaarabu/utamaduni

Somali: ilbaxnimada/dhaqanka

Zulu: impucuko/isiko

*I find it very surprising that Sudan and the Indonesian languages have the same word for civilization/culture, does anyone know what the connection between the two are? Did Muslim traders from Sudan introduce the world to Indonesia? or perhaps the other way around?

Last edited by grega94; 08-23-2018 at 09:36 AM..
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Old 08-23-2018, 11:15 AM
 
Location: San Jose
1,457 posts, read 441,422 times
Reputation: 1562
Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94 View Post
well I think religion is just one facet of a civilization, and there could even be multiple religions/denominations in a civilization. I think a key indicator is to look at the intermarriages between the royal/Nobel families.



At least in this diagram you have royals of Spain, France, Britain, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Russia and the Nordic nations. The more the families are intermarried the more they probably viewed each other as being part of the same civilization, as far as I'm aware there weren't any notable marriages with say the Ottomans, Ethiopians or the Japanese.

I also think that looking at the writing systems can also be an indicator.
Maybe...but historically royal and noble families tended to intermarry with whomever were the closest rivals. Its why Moorish princes during the Umayyad Caliphate often married Spanish Christian princesses. Ottoman royalty intermarried with Serbian royalty with frequency. They were local competitors and a marriage bond was useful to keeping the peace. What purpose would a French prince have wedding a Chinese princess in 1790? When neither country poses any threat to one another. Go through he chart that you posted and look at the royal marriages in accordance to what was happening in politically during the era. Why wasn't the British Royal family in the 16th century intermarrying with the Russian Royal family? Why would they, the Russians and British were in different spheres of power.

You really think a Protestant Englishman in the 16th century viewed a Spanish Catholic as part of the same civilization?

Writing systems can be changed and swapped in language. Turkish adopted the Arabic Writing System initially, the changed it to the Latin Alphabet in 1920. One language can exist in more then one writing system. Would the fact that Turkish exists in both writing systems make Turkey a Western or Islamic civilization?
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