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Istanbul and some of the southwestern coastal Turkish cities are still more secular than the rest of Turkey though.
I don't see Turkey as a Western country, even Greece isn't truly a Western country nor any of the Balkan states. Istanbul is one of the most Westernized Middle Eastern cities (along with Tel Aviv and Dubai), but a Middle Eastern city nonetheless. I do believe Istanbul is much more like Beirut, Baghdad, and Tehran than it is like London, Paris or Rome. And the fact that its a majority Muslim city precludes it from being Western.
I don't even consider Eastern Orthodox countries to be Western.
I think to be Western a country must be Western European or descended from Western European settlement like Australia and New Zealand.
I don't argue about this..
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But just having these characteristics isn't enough hence Argentina, Greece, Brazil, and Mexico not being Western nations. If a country is non-Western AND isn't founded as a European colony then there is no way it can be Western.
... however what we see in this case (according to your statement) is that the difference between Australia/ New Zealand ( that you consider to be Western) VS Argentina and Brazil ( that you DON'T consider to be "Western,") - well the difference here is that the former were founded by the NORTHERN Europeans, while the latter were founded by the SOUTHERN Europeans.
So both are Europeans. However the colonies founded by the Northerners you consider to be part of the West.
The colonies founded by the Southerners - are not....))))
... however what we see in this case (according to your statement) is that the difference between Australia/ New Zealand ( that you consider to be Western) VS Argentina and Brazil ( that you DON'T consider to be "Western,") - well the difference here is that the former were founded by the NORTHERN Europeans, while the latter were founded by the SOUTHERN Europeans.
So both are Europeans. However the colonies founded by the Northerners you consider to be part of the West.
The colonies founded by the Southerners - are not....))))
No the difference is the level of economic development. I DO consider Spain and Portugal, the founders of Latin America, to be Western. While Jamaica and Barbados were founded by the British I still don't consider them Western. I don't even consider the US and British Virgin Islands to be Western, nor are current or past French (Northern European) colonies like Haiti or French Polynesia. So its not about northern vs southern europe. For this purpose Spain and Portugal are part of Western Europe. While Italy didn't have American colonies its also undeniably part of the West.
Argentina is a Third World country economically.If it had a First World economy then it would be the only Western country in Latin America. People of European descent are a minority in both Mexico and Brazil and these countries have a lot of non-European influences like from the Aztecs, Mayans and other indigenous peoples.
Two exceptions of a non-white majority Western society would be Bermuda and the Bahamas which are relatively developed and in many ways are still very traditionally British.
Argentina is a Third World country economically.If it had a First World economy then it would be the only Western country in Latin America. People of European descent are a minority in both Mexico and Brazil and these countries have a lot of non-European influences like from the Aztecs, Mayans and other indigenous peoples.
I cannot talk for Mexico, but you are wrong about Brazil.
The most comprehensive DNA study of Brazil tells that about 70% of the brazilian genoma is from european ancestry. Portuguese is spoken by virtually all of the population, the overwhelming majority of brazilian population follows the Christianity. The bulk of the art, literature and mass media entertainment in Brazil also comes from european and american influences. The influences of amerindian and african culture are much smaller than the brazilians themselves admit: most of them are in music, cuisine and some folklore characters, in not a very distinct way of what happens in USA; these things don't affect the "core" of the brazilian culture, which are still close to Europe.
Last edited by Fabio SBA; 02-05-2019 at 12:52 PM..
Greco-Roman culture is the cradle of Western society! Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, Democracy, the pre-cursor to the Roman Empire which spread Western civilisation to the rest of Europe giving way to Christianity, the Renaissance and the age of exploration by the western powers.
The West I think is loosely an at least somewhat free press and internet, some relationship to European and Christian culture, at least some modicum of free market economics, a liberal democracy that has generally fair elections, and a higher level of economic development and a strong trade network.
Europe outside of Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova, the Caucasus, Turkey, and the northern third of Cyprus. The reason for some of the former Soviet Bloc being left out is because cultural and geopolitically, they are quite different from the West, currently have a tendency towards pretty centralized almost authoritarian rule. Turkey and northern third of Cyprus differ because of religion and because those cultures of the West have a sizable contingent that actively refuse to be grouped together due to such.
The Americas in almost its entirety is Western except for potentially Haiti if we're talking about things on a development basis as it is a far outlier, Cuba due to its social and political isolation, and now increasingly Venezuela. Central America outside of Panama and Costa Rica are also arguable.
In Oceania, Australia and New Zealand are definitely the west and a good number of the smaller island countries and dependencies are essentially the West as well as Western culture in some of these places have strongly replaced many elements of traditional culture and the development level of these places are quite high. Israel is arguably a part of the West.
in my country the terms western countries or westren world are Europe, America, Russia and Canada while Australia and NZ are not considered western countries
No the difference is the level of economic development. I DO consider Spain and Portugal, the founders of Latin America, to be Western.
Exactly.
So it happens to be so, that Spanish and Portuguese colonies turned out to be less economically developed than British colonies. When Spain/Portugal stays close to the Northern Europeans, they share the benefits of economic developments. When they venture on their own however... - look at their colonies.
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While Jamaica and Barbados were founded by the British I still don't consider them Western.
"In 1644 the population of Barbados was estimated at 30,000, of which about 800 were of African descent, with the remainder mainly of English descent. These English smallholders were eventually bought out and the island filled up with large sugar plantations worked by enslaved Africans. By 1660 there was near parity with 27,000 blacks and 26,000 whites. By 1666 at least 12,000 white smallholders had been bought out, died, or left the island. Many of the remaining whites were increasingly poor. By 1680 there were 17 slaves for every indentured servant. By 1700, there were 15,000 free whites and 50,000 enslaved Africans."
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I don't even consider the US and British Virgin Islands to be Western, nor are current or past French (Northern European) colonies like Haiti or French Polynesia. So its not about northern vs southern europe. For this purpose Spain and Portugal are part of Western Europe. While Italy didn't have American colonies its also undeniably part of the West.
Look above ( I'm sure the case described with Barbados might be similar to the "French colonies.")
in my country the terms western countries or westren world are Europe, America, Russia and Canada while Australia and NZ are not considered western countries
in my country the terms western countries or westren world are Europe, America, Russia and Canada while Australia and NZ are not considered western countries
Russia is like a byword for corruption and state cronyism, and for a long while represented the antithesis of western values -that of individualism and private enterprise.
Russian fisherman that would sometimes visit pubs in my hometown(accompanied by their political minders) in the 1980s, certainly didn't talk of themselves as Westerners, although the talk wasn't exactly free flowing, with their overseers restricting what they could say - I was embarrassed for them.
The idea that this could ever be considered as display of social interaction for a western country, is ludicrous
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