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Old 02-16-2021, 04:38 PM
 
169 posts, read 28,115 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pueblofuerte View Post
A common thread in 90's Brit culture was its campness and freedom of expression. A carry on from the 80's. This seemed to contrast with the more delineated US culture of the time.

Blur




Pulp




Robbie Williams

What does this even mean?

I'll say, your posting in this thread is kind of obnoxious.

Second, I wouldn't call American culture at the time "delineated". More aggressive music was popular in America at the time, which is not what I'd describe as "delineated". This was literally the decade of No Doubt, Nirvana, Nine Inch Nails, Marilyn Manson, and Sublime. Grunge had a much more unique element of free expression to it than Britpop did, which wasn't about "free expression", just nerdiness and an effete visual sensibility, which has always been favored in Britain over the more consistently confident and masculine expression of American culture. If that is what you mean by "delineated", than I guess, but defining American culture that way seems to carry a slight anti-US bias with it. As if to say it's not about "free expression" when American culture became globally popular because it was about free expression...like?

Blur and Robbie Williams are strong examples of "freedom of expression"? Um...what?

Last edited by magicinterest; 02-16-2021 at 05:30 PM..
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Old 02-16-2021, 04:41 PM
 
169 posts, read 28,115 times
Reputation: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pueblofuerte View Post
^^

Lol that's what your mama & papa or at least nana said about Elvis and his devil music. Although as a millenial I'm getting old and find myself agreeing with you. Boy what world are we in where millenials are now getting on! Life is indeed too short.

In any case the Brits will save us...The Brit Awards past 2 years..





Literally none of these artists sound good.
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Old 02-16-2021, 04:44 PM
 
169 posts, read 28,115 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pueblofuerte View Post
It would be the equivalent of the UK not knowing about Alanis Morisette, Green Day, Puff Daddy, Blink 182, N-Sync, Run DMC, Moby or LeAnn Rimes.
Um... You seem to be trying to deliberately undersell American music here, which is something I see to a really weird extent on online forums.

In a decade when No Doubt, Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Dinosaur Jr., Pantera, Nine Inch Nails, Deftones, LL Cool J, Biggie Smalls, TLC, The Smashing Pumpkins, Mazzy Star, Incubus, Hole, Rage Against the Machine, etc, were popular, you're out here talking about Blink-182, N-Sync, and LeAnn Rimes?
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Old 02-16-2021, 04:49 PM
 
169 posts, read 28,115 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pueblofuerte View Post
For some reason a "British Invasion" didn't happen in the 90's or 00's as it did in the decade post and decades prior but I think the bitesize culture of US consumerism is a good explanation whereas in the UK it's a more "feed me all the culture you want" kind of mentality. I mean even Jimi Hendrix had to make it big in the UK first before being accepted by his home US market. Artists like Bob Marley, Abba & Björk found international acclaim via the UK market.
Can you even explain what you mean here? The US is the cultural hegemon of the globe. Making it big in America is the way you make it global. America has the largest music market bar none, and produced the highest number of globally popular music genres.

You turned the "bitesize" comment into something weird and unintelligible. Jimi Hendrix wasn't accepted in the American market because he "made it big in the UK", which he didn't really do. He was accepted in the American market because he broke the American market...

You're subverting reality here. Most British artists try to "break America", so America's market is more "feed me all the culture you want" in mentality because it's bigger and more diverse. The US's cultural market is smaller and denser, being dominated by a massive primate market in London - the US is a continent sized country with myriad cultural nodes and expressions at any given time. If America is so consumerist, then it is being fed a lot more culture than Britain, by your logic.

You tried to come up with a convoluted, figurative meaning for a poster saying that we take "bites" of British culture - you tried to turn it into a slight of the US, that it was some negative of "American consumerism" - uh, no, we have our own culture that is globally hegemonic, we don't need yours too. We're culturally self-sufficient, thank you. Our own soft power is the largest on the planet. Other countries usually, therefore, get lost in the sea and make smaller incursions - America has never been more than 50% attuned to British music because the US is the larger music market - New Zealand, Australia, Canada, etc, are tiny - they have much smaller music scenes than both.

Is that the answer you were looking for? You're essentially trying to say that Britain is the largest music market by insisting that people need to make it in Britain (your alleged "give me all the culture" mentality), despite the fact that that isn't true at all. "Make it in America" is the trope it is because all foreign artists come here. The Beatles had to come here to be as famous as they are. Most other famous British musicians from the 60s and 70s ended up taking up residence in the US, producing music in the US, and/or recruiting American band members. For a reason. Because it has always had the larger music scene. Alongside the fact that it was the homeland of the styles that many of them played.

Last edited by magicinterest; 02-16-2021 at 05:35 PM..
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Old 02-16-2021, 05:19 PM
 
169 posts, read 28,115 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pueblofuerte View Post
In general the US-American public were fairly ignorant. None even imagined there could be a solid R&B/Urban scene in the UK spawnig sub-genres such as Garage, Dn'B and Dub Step. Was it a resurgence in US nationalism or just a cultural disconnect because Canada & Aus also seemed to follow suit to a certain extent.
You mean the "American" public. The insufferable arrogance of refusing to call Americans by their appropriate nationality and erasing it for your personal gratification is disgusting. No one cares to call residents of a supercontinent by a demonym, so call Americans Americans from now on.

US nationalism? You're out here pretending like R&B isn't American culture. We produced it. Why would we need to look to Britain for it?

The UK lashed out against Grunge, which was not tied to nationalism, just because it was American. There are documentaries you can watch across the net with British people in the Britpop scene who say that they basically created it and popularized it's name because they were mad that American music was popular.

I don't think Americans have ever been so nationalistic as to create cultural movements and (derivative) music genres just to "react" against another country's culture. The genre was literally named "Britpop".

Your argument is 100% backwards.

America has the larger music scene. It always has. British musicians have been more popular than musicians from any other country in the US - but the US has always been the larger music market and has exported more music and music genres. You think we're supposed to recognize British music as British music and bow to it when 1) it's less plentiful than what's on offer from our own country and 2) it's our styles of music? If Britain created some super original music genre all by itself, then we'll talk.

We don't get all mad at Jamaicans for not accepting America as the righteous home of Reggae, or get all pissed that West African's won't popularly consume American Afrobeat.
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Old 02-16-2021, 05:26 PM
 
169 posts, read 28,115 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pueblofuerte View Post
90's/noughties Britain also excelled in well done sampling, production and covers.

Lonyo




East 17




Fierce




The Verve




Shola Ama + Glamma Kid




Tom Jones + Stereophonics

Sorry for crowding the thread, but none of this is original sounding music, and what's more, none of this exceeds the quality of what you would hear on a top 40 radio station.

America was producing much better, more original stuff in much greater quantities, across a more diverse array of styles than what was on offer in the British music scene of the 90s. We were preoccupied with our own, continent-sized music scene. There's your answer.

When the largest music market in the world want's to listen to it's own music over a smaller country's, it's "nationalistic"? When we prefer to listen to our music styles played by American artists instead of British artists, it's "ignorant"?

Last edited by magicinterest; 02-16-2021 at 05:39 PM..
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Old 02-16-2021, 05:57 PM
 
Location: London, UK
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Welcome to the thread irene. A few points you raised have some weight. I'd agree the US has an incredible amount of substance in its music culture. It's undeniably the main foundation of popular music culture in the modern era. And yes toxic masculinity was more true of US music culture of the time especially through the violent anti-disco movement and the subsequent rise of gangsta rap. Rock & pop too was less risqué with the exception of Marilyn Manson. British 90's music isn't meant to be "better" than US music but it is very much on par to a lot that was out there yet wasn't listened to hardly. A lot was iconic even! The UK was simply a little more receptive to engliash speaking global music at the time. I realised also that Jamaican, Aussie, Irish, Scandinavian and now African music has had the same problem and has more of a footprint in the UK than it does on the US. So yes there is a higher element of ignorance.

Last edited by Pueblofuerte; 02-16-2021 at 06:26 PM..
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Old 02-16-2021, 06:09 PM
 
169 posts, read 28,115 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pueblofuerte View Post
Welcome to the thread irene. A few points you raised have some weight. I'd agree the US has an incredible amount of substance in its music culture. And yes toxic masculinity was more true of US music culture of the time especially black music culture with gangsta rap especially but so a lot of rock & pop too was less risqué with the exception of Marilyn Manson. British 90's music isn't meant to be "better" than US music but it is very much on par yet wasn't listened to hardly. The UK was simply more receptive to global music at the time. I realised also that Jamaican, Aussie, Irish, Scandinavian and now African music has the samd problem and has more of a footprint in the UK than it does on the US.
Funny, because one of the Britpop documentaries stipulates that American music culture was more risque - it was definitely more vulgar.

Whether it's on par or not is a matter of opinion. I, personally, don't think it was on par with what was on offer in the US at the time, in terms of quality - I think the 90s were a peak time for quality in American music. I think British music saw it's greatest peak in quality in the 70s.

The last sentence is dubious. I'm not entirely sure that's true - it's more noticeable in the UK because it has a smaller music market that is not as original or globally hegemonic and longstanding as the American one. Hence - "make it in America". Other nationalities probably find it easier to make it in the UK because there's less competition in the music industry there, and it isn't as big.

Lastly, I wasn't speaking of "toxic masculinity". American popular culture has tended more towards masculine expression, British pop culture has tended towards the feminine expression. You can see that in American vs British fashion, music, art, film...both are valid.

Last edited by magicinterest; 02-16-2021 at 06:29 PM..
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Old 02-16-2021, 06:16 PM
 
Location: London, UK
3,807 posts, read 2,286,556 times
Reputation: 2277
Quote:
Originally Posted by magicinterest View Post
Other nationalities probably find it easier to make it in the UK because there's less competition.
We can agree to disagree but how can there be "less competition" with more music availability and consumption? Practiacally everything that was even minutely popular in all these markets found some success in the UK. So you have the accumulation of everything produced in the US with the rest of english language music produced accross the world, even elements of Bhangra from India which weren't English based.
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Old 02-16-2021, 06:21 PM
 
Location: London, UK
3,807 posts, read 2,286,556 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magicinterest View Post
Um... You seem to be trying to deliberately undersell American music here, which is something I see to a really weird extent on online forums.

In a decade when No Doubt, Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Dinosaur Jr., Pantera, Nine Inch Nails, Deftones, LL Cool J, Biggie Smalls, TLC, The Smashing Pumpkins, Mazzy Star, Incubus, Hole, Rage Against the Machine, etc, were popular, you're out here talking about Blink-182, N-Sync, and LeAnn Rimes?
That was the point. The UK was receptive to even what could be considered second tier artists from the US as well as the really good stuff. It's not about under selling.
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