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Old 10-14-2022, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Great Britain
27,146 posts, read 13,434,325 times
Reputation: 19445

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humphrey_C_Earwicker View Post
Bluster, bluster, bluster............
All that was pointed out was that Savills got their Manhattan population numbers wrong by a factor of about 50%. Nothing more. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. That Savills has an office in midtown makes it all the worse. Do you have anything to say about the wrong number?
I have never mentioned Manhattan, my issue is with MSA and CSA both of which are not that dense, and the figures show although London's metro is a lot smaller it is at least far denser that a lot of that which constitutes the NYC metro area.

A lot of cities are far more densely populated that NYC or even Manhattan and that includes third world cities, so Manhattan, although an impressive borough in an impressive city does not dominate in terms of global density.

List of cities proper by population density - Wikipedia

List of world cities by population density - Wikipedia

Last edited by Brave New World; 10-14-2022 at 03:59 PM..
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Old 10-14-2022, 03:43 PM
 
Location: Great Britain
27,146 posts, read 13,434,325 times
Reputation: 19445
Quote:
Originally Posted by NigerianNightmare View Post
I swear that Brooklyn and The Bronx as well as a substantial part of Queens are denser than the median for Central London.

Inner London- Roughly ~30,000 ppsm (This is higher than the actual population numbers but given it's been 10 years since the census and we are working off estimates I feel like this is a slightly generous but accurate figure)

in 123 square miles.

Brooklyn density- 37,000 ppsm
in 71 square miles
Bronx denisty- 35,000 ppsm
in 42 square miles

In 113 square miles outside of Manhattan. NYC has 4,000,000 people.

Central London has somewhere around ~3.6 million in 123.

On top of that Queens and Hudson counties are outright denser than Outer London, Northern Staten Island, Eastern Staten Island, South Nassau, East Essex, Southern Westchester, NE Union, Southern Bergen, SW Suffolk and Passaic/Clifton/Paterson in Passaic County all have many cities and suburbs denser than the outer London average, with more people too.

NYC and it's inner suburbs is arguably denser than London with more people without Manhattan. So it's outrageous you make the argument that outside of Manhattan London is denser, when Brooklyn alone is denser than everything but Tower Hamlets and Islington. The Bronx is denser than everything but the above and Hackney.

London metro area is far denser when compared to the vast MSA and CSA, which was actually my initial point.

The constant use of the MSA or CSA is the issue I have most problem with, and certainly not how dense Manhattan is, which is something I am not really concerned about, however as you rightly point out, beyond Manhattan the NYC density is very different and this also extends to the vast so called NYC metros.

Even a small child could see that the smaller London metro area is far more dense than the area NYC claims as it's metro area.

As of 2022, London has a population of 9,540,576 to New York's 8,177,020.

The London Metro Area has a population of 14,372,596 (2019) and covers 3,236 sq mi (8,382 km2)

The New York Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) in 2020 had a population of 20,140,470 and covers a area of 6,720 sq mi (17,405 km2).

The New York Combined Statistical Area (CSA) in 2020 had a population of 23,582,649 and covers an area of area is 13,318 sq mi (34,493 km2).

The NY MSA covers more than twice London's metro area, but only has less than 6 million more people, making it less dense than London.

The New York CSA covers an area four times the London Metro, but only has around 3.4 million people more than the MSA, making it even less densely populated.

The London Metro may not be vast, but it is a lot denser than the vast US metros, such as the MSA and CSA.

My problem has always been with the MSA and CSA, and I really don't care one jot about Manhattan or about it's density.

As for London it is becoming ever more dense in certain areas as areas such as Square Mile, Canary Wharf, Greenwich Peninsula, Elephant & Castle, Vauxhall and Battersea Nine Elms, White City etc are seeing a lot of development.

The 2022 annual Tall Buildings Survey recently published by New London Architecture reveals that there are 583 buildings of 20 or more storeys either planned or in construction across the capital. The so-called ‘pipeline’ shows that 341 towers have full planning permission, 109 are already being built, 71 have partial permission, there are 55 applications pending and seven tall buildings have apparently stalled during construction.

Most of these new tall buildings are being built on former industrial wasteland and docks, as part of replacing former poorly planned post was housing estates or are part of plans to increase London's two main financial districts further, however they will impact London's density. Whilst at the same time Thameslink, the opening of Crossrail and the current construction of HS2 will all impact London's commuter traffic.

Last edited by Brave New World; 10-14-2022 at 04:44 PM..
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Old 10-14-2022, 04:48 PM
 
474 posts, read 263,435 times
Reputation: 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
I have never mentioned Manhattan, my issue is with MSA and CSA both of which are not that dense, and the figures show although London's metro is a lot smaller it is at least far denser that a lot of that which constitutes the NYC metro area.

A lot of cities are far more densely populated that NYC or even Manhattan and that includes third world cities, so Manhattan, although an impressive borough in an impressive city does not dominate in terms of global density.

List of cities proper by population density - Wikipedia

List of world cities by population density - Wikipedia
I believe you that you never mentioned Manhattan, but I gotta tell ya millions of people wouldn't.

Quote:
Only Manhattan is really densely populated and even Manhattan is not the most densely populated area in terms of international comparisons.
https://www.city-data.com/forum/64282850-post172.html

Your links here are irrelevant they don't disprove any claims made, much less claims not made.
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Old 10-14-2022, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Great Britain
27,146 posts, read 13,434,325 times
Reputation: 19445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humphrey_C_Earwicker View Post
I believe you that you never mentioned Manhattan, but I gotta tell ya millions of people wouldn't.



https://www.city-data.com/forum/64282850-post172.html

Your links here are irrelevant they don't disprove any claims made, much less claims not made.
I couldn't give a toss, what you think.

My only interest is the metro area, in relation to the MSA and CSA, and I have written about them numerous times in relation on this forum in the past.

In terms of my links being irrelevant, they simply show there are a lot more densely populated city areas than NYC, and to many international forum member this will be relevant, whether you are interested in them is irrelevant to me.

As for Manhattan I am aware that it is densely populated and have never said it wasn't, it's you who came here shouting about Manhattan's density.

London itself is twice the size of NYC and has a long history, and the West End is full of extremely beautiful Georgian and Regency architecture, whilst London is one if the greenest cities in Europe if not the world. There are increasingly impressive skyscraper districts in London including Canary Wharf and the Greenwich Peninsula which were built on former docks or wasteland.

As for NYC's MSA and CSA, I stand by my original criticism, as well as my criticism of other vast pointless US city metro areas.

Last edited by Brave New World; 10-14-2022 at 05:25 PM..
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Old 10-14-2022, 06:30 PM
 
474 posts, read 263,435 times
Reputation: 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
I couldn't give a toss, what you think.

My only interest is the metro area, in relation to the MSA and CSA, and I have written about them numerous times in relation on this forum in the past.

In terms of my links being irrelevant, they simply show there are a lot more densely populated city areas than NYC, and to many international forum member this will be relevant, whether you are interested in them is irrelevant to me.

As for Manhattan I am aware that it is densely populated and have never said it wasn't, it's you who came here shouting about Manhattan's density.

London itself is twice the size of NYC and has a long history, and the West End is full of extremely beautiful Georgian and Regency architecture, whilst London is one if the greenest cities in Europe if not the world. There are increasingly impressive skyscraper districts in London including Canary Wharf and the Greenwich Peninsula which were built on former docks or wasteland.

As for NYC's MSA and CSA, I stand by my original criticism, as well as my criticism of other vast pointless US city metro areas.
I couldn't give a toss that you couldn't give a toss about what I think.

I didn't come "shouting" about Manhattan's density. Internet shouting is defined by the use of ALL CAPS. You're the one who posted the link with the inaccurate numbers about Manhattan, and maybe many more.
I simply pointed out the inaccuracy in your post.

I couldn't give an even bigger toss about what you think about NYC or US MSAs and CSAs.
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Old 10-15-2022, 04:50 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
27,146 posts, read 13,434,325 times
Reputation: 19445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humphrey_C_Earwicker View Post
I couldn't give a toss that you couldn't give a toss about what I think.

I didn't come "shouting" about Manhattan's density. Internet shouting is defined by the use of ALL CAPS. You're the one who posted the link with the inaccurate numbers about Manhattan, and maybe many more.
I simply pointed out the inaccuracy in your post.

I couldn't give an even bigger toss about what you think about NYC or US MSAs and CSAs.
No you didn't as I never mentioned Manhattan, and you disputed Savills figures not mine.

As for the MSA and CSA if you don't care, then go somewhere else as I am finished with your nonsense.

As for London it often feels like a small country, indeed it's twice the geographic size of NYC, and has enough football (soccer) teams to start a league, and London is a vast and very interesting city.
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Old 10-15-2022, 08:19 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
27,146 posts, read 13,434,325 times
Reputation: 19445
Btw Manhattan is around 23 square miles, which means it's about the same size as the borough of Hounslow in London, which is just one of London's 32 Boroughs, not including the City of London.

In terms of the New York boroughs outside of Manhattan and parts of Brooklyn, they have a more suburban feel to them, and many parts of areas such as Queens and Staten Island hardly bring to mind population density, and although there are a couple of smaller cities near New York such as the rather forgettable Jersey City and Newark, once you get past them you are in to suburban New Jersey or suburban Long Island and Connecticut or even rural upstate New York.

Newark has a population similar to the combined populations of Reading and Slough on London's outskirts, whilst Jersey city has a population not that much greater than Luton, and if you go further out you have the likes of Southend, Chelmsford and even Milton Keynes, whilst Brighton is also only an hour on the train from London.

It's worth noting that London's airports are near Slough (Heathrow), not too far from Brighton in Sussex (Gatwick), at Luton, Stansted which is within reach of towns such as Chelmsford and Southend.

Inner London is 123 sq mi (319 km2), whilst Greater London is 607 sq mi (1,572 km2), as well as London's population of around 9.5 million (2022), it also has 3 million plus daily commuters and around 20 million overseas visitors a year.

As for sports, global events, politics , pageantry and numerous other activities, London (a capital city) is on a different level to NYC, and being only a couple of hours on a train to Paris, has transport connections that NYC can only dream of,,and I would gladly go toe to toe with NYC any day in terms of such criteria.

Crossrail and HS2 are also game changes, cutting times to other UK cities, whilst Thameslink has also seen a massive commuter upgrade, and planned improvements in relation to the East Coast Main Line will also cut journey times and city connections.

The truth is London is at the heart the most populous region in one of the most populous countries in the world, so to try and pretend the US has higher metros through the MSA and CSA is laughable.

I would also suggest that the Leeds - Manchester - Liverpool conurbation in North West England, is larger than a lot of US Metro areas, and the same is true of the West Midlands, with increasing cuts to journey times making this even more apparent.

All you need to do is too look at the global population density maps -

List of countries and dependencies by population density - Wikipedia

Last edited by Brave New World; 10-15-2022 at 09:26 AM..
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Old 10-15-2022, 08:49 AM
 
474 posts, read 263,435 times
Reputation: 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
No you didn't as I never mentioned Manhattan, and you disputed Savills figures not mine.

As for the MSA and CSA if you don't care, then go somewhere else as I am finished with your nonsense.

As for London it often feels like a small country, indeed it's twice the geographic size of NYC, and has enough football (soccer) teams to start a league, and London is a vast and very interesting city.
No, I didn't......what?
You used Savills inaccurate figures to support your argument. Savills is not participating in this thread, you are.
Stop trying to shirk your responsibilities. You're like a dad delinquent with child support.

I never said I didn't care about MSAs and CSAs. I said I didn't care what YOU thought about them.
I have as much right to comment on this thread as anyone. It's not your personal blog.
I made no claims, good, bad, or indifferent, about London.
I think the British inferiority complex is having a day out....


Four US states are more densely populated than the UK.

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li...lation_density
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Old 10-15-2022, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
27,146 posts, read 13,434,325 times
Reputation: 19445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humphrey_C_Earwicker View Post
No, I didn't......what?
You used Savills inaccurate figures to support your argument. Savills is not participating in this thread, you are.
Stop trying to shirk your responsibilities. You're like a dad delinquent with child support.

I never said I didn't care about MSAs and CSAs. I said I didn't care what YOU thought about them.
I have as much right to comment on this thread as anyone. It's not your personal blog.
I made no claims, good, bad, or indifferent, about London.
I think the British inferiority complex is having a day out....


Four US states are more densely populated than the UK.

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li...lation_density

I never made any argument regarding Manhattan's density, what I used were the actual MSA and CSA figures when compared to London's metro area.

You seem to be having to revert to personal attacks now, which is always the sign of someone who doesn't have a cohesive argument.

As for four states that have a greater density, there are parts of the UK with a higher density than others, so the fact certain states have a higher density than the UK, indeed England has the highest density in the UK and after London itself, South East England is the most populous region in England, so we can all play that game.

As for the wiki list, I see the top four territories and states include DC, Puerto Rico and Rhode Island.

Last edited by Brave New World; 10-15-2022 at 09:37 AM..
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Old 10-15-2022, 01:47 PM
 
Location: Katy,Texas
6,470 posts, read 4,067,453 times
Reputation: 4517
I don’t think New York is denser than London overall but using MSA and CSA is disingenuous argument because it’s literally incorporates whole counties. I think NYC gets to 14,000,000 before London in a smaller area. But once you include the further out suburbs that aren’t rural but clearly New York sprawl then it lowers the density a lot and it’s harder to see how it compares to London.

Also Brave New World, you keep saying NYC ain’t urban outside of Manhattan and parts of Brooklyn. All of Brooklyn and All of the Bronx are denser than the majority of London except 2 and 4 boroughs respectively. Queens is denser than a significant portion of London, hardly suburban anywhere even by UK standards.
Hudson County, Yonkers/New Rochelle/Mount Vernon, Newark/Irvington/Orange (parts), Passaic/Clifton/Paterson, SE Bergen, South Nassau and Northern and Eastern Staten Island all have densities on par or higher than many areas of greater London. That’s millions of people there. Outside of the city (not including Staten Island). If I had to put a number I would say 2-3 million people outside of NYC living at similar densities.
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