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Old 10-18-2022, 02:00 PM
 
Location: In the heights
37,127 posts, read 39,357,090 times
Reputation: 21212

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Quote:
Originally Posted by easthome View Post
Is the original question asked here about the size of the population or the size of the city? I don't see what density has to do with 'size'?

By simply Googling I have

London population - 8.982 million
New York population - 8.419 million
London 'size' - 1.569 km2
New York 'size' - 783.8 km2

This suggests that London is (overall) a bigger city with a bigger population and New York has a higher population density. Isn't density a separate question?

Apparently Tokyo is 2,194 km2 with a population of 13.96 million, Tokyo is bigger than both no? Size is no indication of the 'quality' of any city.
I think something to note is that the figure for NYC is the 2021 estimate where the estimates are generally considered potentially wildly off and the 2020 official census gave was 8,804,190. Meanwhile, London's 2021 census numbers were 8,799,800. That being said, yes, the two are very close though one is covering an area about double the other. I think the latter part of the OP's title about now London is larger is definitely true in terms of land area and is possibly true in terms of population size within the municipal boundaries. However, it's odd to say that it *feels* significantly larger in some respects.

Density is a separate question and I agree it's neither by itself better nor worse to have greater population density. It was Brave New World who mostly went off on that tangent, and I think the problem and the back and forth there was that he didn't seem to understand the following

- there were broad variations on census definitions
- there is a large difference in comparing density for land areas that are very different in scale as larger ones can hold a lot more internal variation and he didn't seem to understand that either
- a source posted was simply factually incorrect by a pretty large amount on what the density of Manhattan was and doesn't seem to able to acknowledge that it was way off
- saying NYC outside of Manhattan was not very dense which is counter to the argument being made that parts off London were very dense, because broad swathes of those "not very dense" parts of NYC outside of Manhattan were as dense or even denser and for pretty large amounts of area given the size of the boroughs he was posting about

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
It's also made worse, when the population of NYC is given as the MSA or CSA figure, which is often the case.
Right, and as stated before, MSA and CSA is not going to give you apples to apples comparison for NYC vs London metropolitan areas since MSA and CSAs from the US census are used as political designations for allocation of voting power and funding. The UK is not part of that political system and even for US metropolitan areas, MSA to MSA comparisons or CSA to CSA comparisons are often misleading since it by default must take the political and legal boundaries of counties or their county equivalent which from state to state and area to area have vastly different sizes and populations. The odd thing is that you seem to acknowledge that, but you keep going back to it in trying to do a density comparison for metropolitan area despite this topic not necessarily being about density *and* already acknowledging that it's not a good construct for comparing metropolitan areas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Humphrey_C_Earwicker View Post
A thread search of "density" returned 55 results, the first at post #9. BNW used Savills numbers to support a contention that London was denser. Some of Savills numbers were off by a factor of 50%.
Yea, I think somehow any kind of perceived sense of diminishing London in any way makes Brave New World scramble for anything even obviously factually erroneous statements to try to "defend" London. It's odd because there isn't necessarily even an overall "good" or "bad" to having a more populous or denser metropolitan area. To some people, the density and size of the NYC and its metropolitan area is a strong deterrent to living there or even visiting, so why do this weird thing of bringing in of factually challenged statements and unreasonable comparisons in? Why keep on avoiding acknowledging that there were mistakes in the sources given that it doesn't mean anything negative about London?
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Old 10-18-2022, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Bergen County, New Jersey
12,159 posts, read 7,989,874 times
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WHile neither of these two cities are anywhere near my favorite, NYC has a much much denser core feeling. But right outside Manhattan you get:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7956...7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7696...7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7236...7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8872...7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6400...7i16384!8i8192

Whereas, the urban areas stay more urban for longer in London. NYC has super Hyperurban areas and it just dies down to suburban sprawl. London is like a gradient, while having less of the highest of the highs and lowest of the lows NYC has.


London:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5343...7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5270...7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5155...7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4598...7i16384!8i8192
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Old 10-18-2022, 03:33 PM
 
Location: In the heights
37,127 posts, read 39,357,090 times
Reputation: 21212
Quote:
Originally Posted by masssachoicetts View Post
WHile neither of these two cities are anywhere near my favorite, NYC has a much much denser core feeling. But right outside Manhattan you get:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7956...7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7696...7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7236...7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8872...7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6400...7i16384!8i8192

Whereas, the urban areas stay more urban for longer in London. NYC has super Hyperurban areas and it just dies down to suburban sprawl. London is like a gradient, while having less of the highest of the highs and lowest of the lows NYC has.


London:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5343...7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5270...7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5155...7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4598...7i16384!8i8192
I think this depends on what you're talking about when you say core and what the distance from which center you're talking about. The further you get from the center though, the more variation there can be in terms of density (which makes sense given the further straight line you are from the center as a radius then covers larger and larger surface areas). This then makes picking up individual streetviews less and less representative of what density you can find the further out you go.

If we use the shorter distances you have from the City of London of the London examples like the Morning Crescent example, you can get this or this. For your NYC examples, I'm somewhat familiar with the Bergen Neck peninsula areas you have for your first two posts, so I know that the first one is an overlook on the ridge where one side is pricey and larger houses for the view as the other side is a fairly large drop-off in elevation to the flats below while the other one is on the flats below. Going in a bit further gets you to the Bergenline area where you get stuff like this and on parts of the flats on the waterfront gets you stuff like this. The two you posted and the two I posted are mostly in the same general area and about three to five miles from City Hall. You can go even further out on the New Jersey side and find yourself in this which is about 8 miles from City Hall. Go 9 miles the other way into Queens and you get this. Somewhat more typical of 9 miles away from City Hall though would be stuff like this, but again at 9 to 10 miles radius, you're encompassing a very large surface area and thus a lot of variation.

The gradient is sharper in NYC, but the peak for NYC is also a lot higher and so even where it dies down from the NYC peak in Manhattan, it's still going to have a lot of parts that's higher than most of London. Again though, not saying this is necessarily a good thing. I don't necessarily think it's a good thing and I've generally preferred low/mid-rise urban neighborhoods (and London also has a *lot* of that) though have lived in high-rise neighborhoods as well.

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 10-18-2022 at 04:32 PM..
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Old 10-18-2022, 11:51 PM
 
Location: Great Britain
27,154 posts, read 13,438,724 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humphrey_C_Earwicker View Post
But both the US and UK mostly use miles.....seemed an odd choice.
It's what most of the international stats use, as well as the rest of Europe.
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Old 10-19-2022, 12:20 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
27,154 posts, read 13,438,724 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by easthome View Post
If anything being 'more densely populated' means its more likely to have a lower quality of life, the 'less' densely populated parts of cities tend to be the 'better' parts of town while the high density parts of cities tend to be where the 'poorer' people live (for obvious reasons I would think).


I agree, although both inner London and and outer London both have very exclusive areas.

In terms of travelling across London it does seem extremely vast, and there are numerous transport system.

As for sports, Chelsea plan to start rebuilding their stadium next year and it will be London's sixth 60,000 plus stadium, joining Arsenal's Emirates Stadium, Tottenham Hotspur Stadium and West Ham's London Stadium, along with 80,000 plus Twickenham Rugby Ground and 90,000 plus Wembley Stadium.

Chelsea has appointed renowned American stadium architect Janet Marie Smith, who has worked on a host of stadium renovations in the US, including Baltimore's Oriole Park, Atlanta's Olympic Stadium, the Boston Red Sox's Fenway Park and Dodger Stadium in LA.

Chelsea owner Todd Boehly to rebuild Stamford Bridge one stand at a time instead of Roman Abramovich’s grand design - The Sun (July 2022)

Janet Marie Smith - Wikipedia

In total, no fewer than seventeen Football Clubs from London play at a professional level, whilst of you include the London metro area it rises to 22.

All 17 Football Clubs in London - P1 Travel

You also have two large world famous historic cricket grounds in terms of Lords and the Oval, as well as numerous Rugby including Twickenham and a host of other grounds.

Famous London rugby union teams include Harlequins, Saracens and London Irish, along with smaller clubs such as London Scottish and London Welsh, whilst London's main Rugby League team is London Broncos.

In terms of tennis the two most famous venues are 'The All England Lawn Tennis and Croquet Club' at Wimbledon and The Queen's Club in West Kensington.

The London Lions are London's main basketball team and are based at the Cooper Box at Stratford, whilst London is home to a number of other vast arenas, including Wembley Arena and the O2 Arena, as well as the MSG Sphere at Stratford, which now has planning permission.

As for Ice Hockey you have the likes of the Streatham Redhawks,, Haringey Huskies, London Raiders and Lea Valley Lions.

London also has numerous beautiful golf courses, is home to Kempton Park Race course, and is close to Ascot and Epsom.

London also hosts regular NFL Games and also hosts MLB games, and in the past has hosted US baseball and US ice hockey.

Whilst every conceivable sport is just about available in London from rowing or sailing to equestrian events at Olympia, through to cycling events at Stratford Velodrome and from climbing through to darts, snooker, table tennis, chess etc.

Last edited by Brave New World; 10-19-2022 at 01:17 AM..
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Old 10-19-2022, 11:26 AM
 
Location: In the heights
37,127 posts, read 39,357,090 times
Reputation: 21212
Let's go over what the various reasonable interpretations of this topic are in regards to whether London feels significantly larger than New York now, and if actually is.

NYC as an actual metropolitan area in almost any apples to apples comparison is more populous by a notable, but not massive margin. For just about any arbitrarily sized contiguous urban area used, NYC is more populous. This isn't really debatable and it's *also* not something where it's inherently better or worse.

London in terms of Greater London not the City of London is physically larger than New York City's legal boundaries at nearly double the land area. In terms of population within those boundaries, latest official tallies would have London in its 600 square miles legal boundaries does currently having a greater population than NYC in its 300 square miles legal boundaries. The raw numbers were pretty close for the 2020 US census (the US does an official census every 10 years on 0's) versus London's 2021 census, but the 2021 US census *estimate* would have it lower as the difference between the official 2020 census and the 2021 estimate is a pretty steep drop of more than 330K people.

Now, the tricky part is in how it *feels.* Within these boundaries, NYC might feel larger because there's much density overall including large swathes outside of Manhattan with greater density than anything of comparable land area in London. This is despite demonstrably inaccurate information and statements made in this thread specifically by Brave New World where it's still unclear if he's aware of such. Regardless, with such large overall municipal boundaries of hundreds of square miles (about 300 for NYC and 600 for London) there's bound to be quite a bit of variation for what one would experience on a human scale which would be on a neighborhood level. This feeling of expansiveness or density is also not something that's inherently better or worse.

Now, there's another part to make note of in terms of what *feels* larger which is that there is a pretty strong point of demarcation of what is and is *not* New York City which may play a part in how a city feels because if it's generally given that people have a strong delineation of what is and is not New York City, then that feeling is ostensibly part of the metric. People living in the dense, urban areas just outside of the boundaries of New York City when traveling outside of the area will to someone not from the region may just say they are from New York City, but within the metropolitan area, there is an odd pushback that sometimes comes from when people outside of NYC legal boundaries say they live in New York City despite sometimes the actual built structure of the city / suburban boundaries sometimes not being particularly different when on one side of the border versus the other in some parts where the border is over contiguously developed land. For example, here's a border on the northwest part of the Bronx or this in Southeast Queens. I'm curious about whether within London there's also this kind of mentality of where if you're not technically living within one of the London boroughs if there's a bit of weirdness about saying you live in London. I imagine it's perhaps not to the same extent. Like, if you live at the end of this street where you're technically out of London boroughs, is it odd to say you're from London?

Last edited by OyCrumbler; 10-19-2022 at 11:35 AM..
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Old 10-20-2022, 04:40 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
27,154 posts, read 13,438,724 times
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London's population broke the 9 million barriers back in 2020.

According to UN data and estimates, London, the population of London in 2022 is 9,541,000, whilst the city is predicted to break the 10 million barrier in coming decades.

The next fastest growing areas, are the regions surrounding London, with the Eastern Region and South East regions that surround London also experiencing significant growth.

London's population hit record 9m high last year - Evening Standard - Evening Standard (2021)

As for density, it is increasing in many London boroughs, and London is building upwards in certain boroughs away from it's historic heart, and in areas such as the traditionally poor east end.

As for being a larger city, you just have to travel across it to realise that, and geographically it's a much larger city by geographic definition, however it also remains a very green and pleasant city thanks to green belts and urban planning that goes back to Victorian times.

As for New York, I am certainly not going to speak ill, of London's sister city New York, as it's a city that London and it's population generally have a lot of love for, and is a fantastic city, even if I dispute it's daft metro areas.

Last edited by Brave New World; 10-20-2022 at 04:58 AM..
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Old 10-20-2022, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Toronto
15,102 posts, read 15,867,852 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post

Right, and as stated before, MSA and CSA is not going to give you apples to apples comparison for NYC vs London metropolitan areas since MSA and CSAs from the US census are used as political designations for allocation of voting power and funding. The UK is not part of that political system and even for US metropolitan areas, MSA to MSA comparisons or CSA to CSA comparisons are often misleading since it by default must take the political and legal boundaries of counties or their county equivalent which from state to state and area to area have vastly different sizes and populations. The odd thing is that you seem to acknowledge that, but you keep going back to it in trying to do a density comparison for metropolitan area despite this topic not necessarily being about density *and* already acknowledging that it's not a good construct for comparing metropolitan areas.
This is a very good point. I usually take Americans to task for this in the vs threads in here because they will often compare these MSA's/CSA's to foreign countries' cities metro areas including for things like GDP, yet they are far from fair or apples to apples comparisons.
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Old 03-06-2023, 06:05 PM
 
54 posts, read 33,257 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by masssachoicetts View Post
[Mod cut: orphaned]

The average American doesnt think NYC is the best(est) in the USA, let alone the world. Thats pure craziness. Most people I meet don't even put NYC in their top 10 favorite cities. Its just on C/D people boost it to no extreme. Theres a lot of cities that I consider better than NYC; Portland ME, Chicago, Boston, Washington DC, Seattle, etc. Let's not group all, most, or even a plurality of Americans into NYC Fanatics.

And I live in the NYC Metro and work in... urban planning.

I cant think of a reason why I would put NYC over London except for the food, weather, and proximity to beaches/mountains. London is cleaner, has far better transit, airports are directly connected to the CBD, is more picturesque, better QOL, and Ive had more enjoyable times visiting LON over NY.
You have an inferiority complex about NYC. Most people rank it above London, globally, from Kearney to “the world’s most talked about cities” index to various global and financial powers indices to the fashion cities indices.
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Old 03-06-2023, 06:18 PM
 
54 posts, read 33,257 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NigerianNightmare View Post
I have no qualms in preferring London to New York. It’s far more integrated ethnically and is safer from a violent crime perspective you could also argue London in general is more aesthetically pleasing but that ones more subjective. London also have excellent rail compared to Greater New York. But by all objective measurements London is the smaller city. If we are talking core density no first world city can match Lower Manhattan. Central Tokyo is the closest. If we are talking physical size even without the green belt NYC is both physically bigger and has millions more people.

Brave New World, MSAs are far more valid than a Greater London population of 14 million. As someone who’s been in London more than New York. London doesn’t have the American supercommuter. MSAs only cover a large land area because they use counties rather than actual towns/cities due to State laws on towns and cities not being standardized nationwide. Their is a culture and infrastructure that supports super-commuting in not only New York but all of America. We have wider highways, with higher speed limits that penetrates the city center more (not necessarily a good thing), lower gas prices and very limited tollways when compared to London. Oxford and Cambridge while having a lot of history in connection to London have not seen growth largely because of suburban London. 95% of towns in a 60 mile radius weren’t significant till New York came around. Even without a greenbelt it’s hard to say whether Luton is actually connected to London in a suburban or satellite city relationship. Theirs nowhere within 60 miles of New York that isn’t related to the city that way. Americans culturally are willing to drive 70 miles to work, not all of them but a large enough portion for towns to form at that distance away from a major city. That culture doesn’t exist in London. Now London is definitely bigger than Greater London the political entity but it really isn’t more than 12-13 million people culturally.

Now because MSAs use counties they 100% add extra people to NYC area. You could probably shave off a decent amount of Ocean County, New Jersey and be well within your rights. But even places like Southern Fairfield County Connecticut which by all definitions is New York City, Manhattan commuting investment bankers isn’t included in the MSA last time I checked. So at best the 20.3 million is a wash or a couple hundred thousand lower.
You could also shave of significant portions of the rural areas of some of these Outer New Jersey counties and you would lose barely anyone but a majority of the land area.

Like I said it isn’t just a New York thing but it’s a Houston thing as well, you leave the Enfield area and theirs a few suburban towns until the area barely even feels connected to London and that’s only 30-40 miles out. I understand the Greenbelt has made development wonky but you don’t even see similar development patterns in places like Luton (surprisingly large amount of excess housing compared to Jobs which implies a strong commuter pattern). Places like Milton Keynes give a more suburban vibe than Luton even though it’s close to the city. Galveston on the other hand in Houston is very tied to the city not only physically but culturally as well, local culture is 100% derived from Houstonians culture even though it was a large town before development swamped it. Galveston is 50 miles away from Houston and Houston is much smaller population wise than London or NYC.
London is not more “integrated ethnically”. At all. NYC has been doing that for way longer than London. London is less aesthetically pleasing to me, and the city is just sleepy in comparison. Huge chunks feel very suburban.
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