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View Poll Results: Who do you support?
Palestine 58 28.16%
Israel 148 71.84%
Voters: 206. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-14-2023, 07:25 AM
 
Location: rural south west UK
5,406 posts, read 3,597,111 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy234 View Post
Mate are you serious? Surely you know the history of the land you come from? If the world were to live according to this moral standard you would never have been born. The world out of vengeance would have descended upon your land and made it a wasteland for the crimes against millions of people long ago. In fact I wouldn't exist either because if you go far enough back my Nation's history is similar. In fact we ALL would be in the same situation as there is NO people, no nation or tribe that hasn't commited evil against their fellow man. That doesn't mean genocide against civilians is justified.

Civilians are never legitimate targets in war. To say they are is horrifying. What if you were born in Palestine instead of being in the lucky west, how would you feel about westerners calling for your demise simply because of where you were born and who you are?
civilians are never legitimate targets- tell that to Hamas.
I hope the IDF kill every member of that organisation.
what Hamas did was commit crimes against humanity, they didnt just kill a few soldiers but they murdered over a thousand men, women and children including babies, and who takes hostages except terrorists, they use their own civilians as human shields. I dont understand people who support these sorts of activities.

Last edited by bigpaul; 10-14-2023 at 07:50 AM..
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Old 10-14-2023, 07:35 AM
 
695 posts, read 285,987 times
Reputation: 1229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy234 View Post
Mate are you serious? Do you have any basic understanding of the history of the land you come from? If the world were to live according to this moral standard you would never have been born. The world out of vengeance would have descended upon your land and made it a wasteland for the crimes against millions of people long ago. In fact I wouldn't exist either because if you go far enough back my Nation's history it is similar. In fact we ALL would be in the same situation as there is NO people, no national or tribe that hasn't commited evil against their fellow man. That doesn't mean genocide against civilians is justified.
I can't speak for the other guy you are responding to but you must realize there is now a declared war between Hamas and Israel. Not exchange of gunfires in limited engagements, but war. This does not involve West Bank/Iran-backed Hezzbollah at the current time but, when you have a side declaring "Global Day of Jihad" well you can expect that IDF will be on alert. Probably not a good time to throw projectiles at IDF, and it's just not in regarding rocks....the below doesn't appear that they were throwing rocks:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...er/ar-AA1ia9W6
Likewise, if a terrorist organization, which also happens to be the governing body of Gaza, sends militants into a country to brutally kill thousands of it's citizens and kidnap hundreds of others, well that is as clear a declaration of war as can be. Israel has the right to defend themselves. Any country would do the same, probably even more brutal (what other country would issue warning BEFORE they strike a target). Hamas must be dismantled, these terrorists centers are the target, not the civilians. Unfortunately Hamas is using it's own citizens as human shields.

There is thus no genocide, although it clearly appears one side, the Palestinian backed terrorist groups, are promoting it against Jews. You do know it was originally part of the Hamas constitution
CHARTER OF HAMAS
  • Preamble: "'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
  • Article 7: "'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him."
  • Article 13: "[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility."
  • Article 32: "The HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews."
THAT'S a call for genocide, not by Jews, but by this Palestinian organization!
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Old 10-14-2023, 08:04 AM
 
15,952 posts, read 7,015,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy234 View Post
I support both to have their own land and live in peace but I picked Palestine simply because of how Israel has treated millions of Palestinians the last few decades. As a Christian I have to say I am horrified

Even now Israeli soldiers are killing Palestinian kids for throwing rocks at them in the west Bank. Imagine if in the US police officers just opened up during disturbances like this however this is a daily occurrence not to mention Gaza is the largest open air prison on the planet. They are literally treating Palestinians the way they were treated in Europe before they were sent to concentration camps. Now millions of Palestinians are being told to leave with nowhere to go
The Golden Rule twisted out of shape. You would think a lesson in compassion and empathy would be learnt, not “do unto others.” That is a boomerang.
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Old 10-14-2023, 08:05 AM
 
15,952 posts, read 7,015,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EveryLady View Post
Good to see you didn't make a neutral or I don't know option. Reality is people have to take sides whether they want to or not. That's just the nature of a human conflict that has no clean solution and does not end. Me, I chose Israel.
The choice could be for peace, non-violence, compromise, community.
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Old 10-14-2023, 08:10 AM
 
15,952 posts, read 7,015,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
Israel has offered the Palestinians 97% of the West Bank and all of Gaza. By rejecting such terms, Palestinian leadership continuously shows they aren't serious in peace. By electing Hamas, which refuses to acknowledge Israel's existence and wages daily terrorism campaigns against the Israeli state--the Palestinian people have shown that they don't value peace. Contrast this to Egypt, which had the Sinai returned to it (after losing it in its efforts to commit another Holocaust during the 1967 war) after making peace with Israel and acknowledging the Jewish State's right to exist.

Also, rocks are deadly weapons (and that's not the only things these youths are throwing, but things like Molotov cocktails are also being hurled), as is shown here when Israel charged one of its own youths for killing a Palestinian civilian woman by throwing a rock which passed through her cars and struck her in the head: https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel...stinian-woman/ What in the hell do folks expect Israel to do? Note, Israel does not use deadly force against rock throwers that don't pose a threat (e.g. rock throwers who are out of range), but do you seriously expect anyone to not use appropriate force to neutralize deadly force against them?
Israel can acknowledge that Isreal was a result of terrorist activism, and that terrorism can never bring peace, only destruction. It can then negotiate in good faith and with goodwill with the people of Palestine. Stop the expansion of settlement and get past the hate, would be good step forward.
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Old 10-14-2023, 08:15 AM
 
695 posts, read 285,987 times
Reputation: 1229
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
The Golden Rule twisted out of shape. You would think a lesson in compassion and empathy would be learnt, not “do unto others.” That is a boomerang.
What Jews learned during the holocaust is the danger of state sanctioned incitement to hatred and the consequences of indifference. Compassion and empathy is a two way street. How do you sing Kumbaya with a culture that is raised to hate and kill the other. That's been the topic for this entire thread. I made some suggestions in an early post months ago.

Meanwhile, there is no moral equivalency to what Hamas committed last week, NONE. There is no justification. Israel has the right to defend itself. Would any country "turn the other cheek" when thousand of their citizens were slaughtered? There is a time for peace, a time for war. Peace can be discussed after Hamas is removed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
Israel can acknowledge that Isreal was a result of terrorist activism.
Not sure what that means.

Last edited by Johnny Wadd; 10-14-2023 at 08:24 AM..
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Old 10-14-2023, 08:24 AM
 
15,952 posts, read 7,015,660 times
Reputation: 8544
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Wadd View Post
What Jews learned during the holocaust is the danger of state sanctioned incitement to hatred and the consequences of indifference. Compassion and empathy is a two way street. How do you sing Kumbaya with a culture that is raised to hate and kill the other. That's been the topic for this entire thread. I made some suggestions in an early post months ago.

Meanwhile, there is no moral equivalency to what Hamas committed last week, NONE. There is no justification. Israel has the right to defend itself. There is a time for peace, a time for war. Peace can be discussed after Hamas is removed.
There is no morality in the way Israel was created and the inhabitants were uprooted. There is no morality in the continued expansion of settlements and arming them. There is no humanity in the way Palestinians are being oppressed. There is not much morality to talk about. Only compromise and negotiation can bring hope.
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Old 10-14-2023, 08:32 AM
 
695 posts, read 285,987 times
Reputation: 1229
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008 View Post
There is no morality in the way Israel was created and the inhabitants were uprooted. There is no morality in the continued expansion of settlements and arming them. There is no humanity in the way Palestinians are being oppressed. There is not much morality to talk about. Only compromise and negotiation can bring hope.
We can all agree on your last sentence. But this is the Hamas Statement on compromise and negotiation:

Article 13 of the Hamas Charter: "[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility."
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Old 10-14-2023, 08:42 AM
 
Location: Perth, Australia
2,932 posts, read 1,308,387 times
Reputation: 1642
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpaul View Post
civilians are never legitimate targets- tell that to Hamas.
I hope the IDF kill every member of that organisation.
what Hamas did was commit crimes against humanity, they didnt just kill a few soldiers but they murdered over a thousand men, women and children including babies, and who takes hostages except terrorists, they use their own civilians as human shields. I dont understand people who support these sorts of activities.
No-one supports Hamas. What we are saying is that you can't justify the killing of innocent Palestinians because of Hamas anymore than you can justify the killing of innocent American civilians when the US government commits atrocities. I don't see Hamas being defeated from this if all Israel do is commit the very atrocities that feeds their very reason to exist. It is clear the status quo has caused this to bubble up over the years meaning things have to change permanently and we need a peace agreement between both sides. One where the dignity of both sides is respected. One where Hamas is rejected by the people and ousted.
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Old 10-14-2023, 09:16 AM
 
695 posts, read 285,987 times
Reputation: 1229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy234 View Post
No-one supports Hamas. What we are saying is that you can't justify the killing of innocent Palestinians because of Hamas anymore than you can justify the killing of innocent American civilians when the US government commits atrocities. I don't see Hamas being defeated from this if all Israel do is commit the very atrocities that feeds their very reason to exist. It is clear the status quo has caused this to bubble up over the years meaning things have to change permanently and we need a peace agreement between both sides. One where the dignity of both sides is respected. One where Hamas is rejected by the people and ousted.
Again I am answering for someone else. They can defend themselves I am sure but this is my take on it:

The big difference here with Israel is they are targeting terrorists, not innocent Palestinians. Hamas and Hezbollah are targeting civilians, and in turn using there own civilians as human shields. Simple as that. Come on, you know this.

Israel can flatten both Gaza and the West Bank via it's own bombs and rockets if they wanted to, just kill everyone. It would be so easy. No need to enter Gaza with ground forces to root out Hamas. The pending ground invasion will certainly incur heavy IDF casualties. No need for that, just kill them all. Israel won't do that, Hamas would do that. Israel is currently bombing Gaza Hamas infrastruture and troop concentrations in preparation for the ground invasion. They use precision guided weapons. They warn civilians before attacking. Yes there are civilian casualties because Hamas uses them as shields, setting up Hamas command centers from Apartment Buildings. Shooting off rockets from Hospital and Schools. They won't even allow their own citizens to evacuate to south Gaza (many are doing it however). They have tunnels, do you think Hamas is allowing it's people to use them as bomb shelters?

Now, if Hezbollah or Hamas had the ability to bomb Israel into the stone age and just kill everyone (something that Israel is NOT doing), do you think they would hesitate? Be honest.
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