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Old 07-07-2021, 09:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodHombre View Post
In America, conservative = Trump. A typical conservative would believe the election was stolen by Biden, antifa was to blame for Jan 6 capitol riot, liberal people hate America, the whole world hates America, climate change is a hoax, covid is just flu...
That is not really accurate. Trump is hard to define, he changed party affiliation from Democrat to Republican to "no party affiliation" several time before finally registering as Republican in 2012. He's more accurately defined as a populist or nationalist president, and doesn't always adhere to traditional republican values (i.e. fiscal conservatism, disengagement from foreign conflicts).
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Old 07-07-2021, 09:47 AM
 
Location: Vancouver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
That is not really accurate. Trump is hard to define, he changed party affiliation from Democrat to Republican to "no party affiliation" several time before finally registering as Republican in 2012. He's more accurately defined as a populist or nationalist president, and doesn't always adhere to traditional republican values (i.e. fiscal conservatism, disengagement from foreign conflicts).
Trump isn't hard to define. He's simply narcissistic, opportunistic, con-man, and wannabe dictator.

He just ran as a Republican because the GOP was so rotten from within, that making a deal with the devil seemed prudent for power.
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Old 07-07-2021, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Vancouver
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Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Just about every word you said above was wrong, perhaps because you didn't see my original post - #20. Please refer to that. Inalienable rights you don't quite get - in the US per our constitution these are rights that CANNOT be governed by men or women. That's the entire simple concept.
Individual rights are better protected in the US, probably more than any other country in the world. Your country may focus on collective rights. That may be good or bad depending on your view. But once again, once you focus on collective rights, you are taking away individual rights.
Yet on rating countries on freedoms, the US certainly isn't first.

I also think you haven't a clue about individual rights in other countries.

For Canada

"Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice. Section 7 guarantees the life, liberty and personal security of all Canadians."

https://www.canada.ca/en/canadian-he...-freedoms.html
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Old 07-07-2021, 10:02 AM
 
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Hmmm. I see this thread heading into P&C forum-land. The cesspool of CityData.
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Old 07-07-2021, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Canada
7,684 posts, read 5,548,346 times
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Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
How do we explain prisons, or any form of punishment for criminals, which of course exist throughout the world? Criminals give up most of there rights once convicted of a crime, after due process. Liberty and pursuit of happiness ends for all of them once imprisoned.

John Locke, the English philosopher that really influenced the US Constitution, defended capital punishment, stating that those guilty of a capital crime have forfeited there right to life. The key is, really, only after due process.

This is a complex debate that still exists in the US, so not really fitting for this forum I think. And it's out of scope to the OPs topic.
You said “rights that CANNOT be governed by men or women”, now you say they can.
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Old 07-07-2021, 10:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by cdnirene View Post
You said “rights that CANNOT be governed by men or women”, now you say they can.
I know you are trying to get me into some logic trap, I don't think your questions are sincere. But really it's common sense. Think of it is a pyramid with God/Creator/whatever you want to call it on top, then the people below that, then the government below that. Obviously there has to be a government and the rule of law, again common sense, but the U.S. Constitution recognized that certain universal rights cannot be taken away by legislation, as they are beyond the control of a government, being naturally given to every individual at birth, and that these rights are retained throughout life.

I see this thread going off the rails, the P&C regulars are starting to chime in and bringing there bad manners typical with that forum with them. That usually dooms a thread. But anyways no one is saying that one form of government is better than the other or one or the other doesn't have flaws. But they are different.
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Old 07-07-2021, 10:41 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
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Trump became popular mainly because a large segment of American citizens don't want the United States to turn into a Latin American country through illegal immigration.

I tend to agree that fits the meaning of conservatism, at least an aspect of it.
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Old 07-07-2021, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Canada
7,684 posts, read 5,548,346 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
I know you are trying to get me into some logic trap, I don't think your questions are sincere. But really it's common sense. Think of it is a pyramid with God/Creator/whatever you want to call it on top, then the people below that, then the government below that. Obviously there has to be a government and the rule of law, again common sense, but the U.S. Constitution recognized that certain universal rights cannot be taken away by legislation, as they are beyond the control of a government, being naturally given to every individual at birth, and that these rights are retained throughout life.

I see this thread going off the rails, the P&C regulars are starting to chime in and bringing there bad manners typical with that forum with them. That usually dooms a thread. But anyways no one is saying that one form of government is better than the other or one or the other doesn't have flaws. But they are different.
Yes, I’m being sincere. The death penalty was de facto abolished in Canada in 1963 and de jure in 1999. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capita...ment_in_Canada

So, I would argue that there is a right to life in Canada and certain other countries that doesn’t exist in the US. That’s an important right. If you’re dead, liberty and pursuit of happiness is unimportant to your corpse.

So much for your bragging that “Individual rights are better protected in the US, probably more than any other country in the world.”
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Old 07-07-2021, 11:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnirene View Post
Yes, I’m being sincere. The death penalty was de facto abolished in Canada in 1963 and de jure in 1999. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capita...ment_in_Canada

So, I would argue that there is a right to life in Canada and certain other countries that doesn’t exist in the US. That’s an important right. If you’re dead, liberty and pursuit of happiness is unimportant to your corpse.

So much for your bragging that “Individual rights are better protected in the US, probably more than any other country in the world.”
Again you are getting into the "mine is better than yours" debate. That was not the intent. Canada focuses more on collective rights, which is great, it's a philisophical discussion. But with that comes some sacrifice of individual rights. In terms of due process, Canada and the US are very similar. I don't think you usually have jury trials for civil cases, not a big deal. But the US Bill of Rights is very absolute, while Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms are fluid and subject to more latitude. An example is freedom of expression - Canada dictates the right of free speech, but the state can limit it in reasonable ways. This may be contrasted with the absolute language of the First Amendment of the United States Bill of Rights, which states: "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech or of the press." The words of the Canadian guarantee acknowledge the state's right to limit free speech; the words of the American forbid the state from doing so.
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Old 07-07-2021, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Vancouver
18,504 posts, read 15,597,154 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Again you are getting into the "mine is better than yours" debate. That was not the intent. Canada focuses more on collective rights, which is great, it's a philisophical discussion. But with that comes some sacrifice of individual rights. In terms of due process, Canada and the US are very similar. I don't think you usually have jury trials for civil cases, not a big deal. But the US Bill of Rights is very absolute, while Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms are fluid and subject to more latitude. An example is freedom of expression - Canada dictates the right of free speech, but the state can limit it in reasonable ways. This may be contrasted with the absolute language of the First Amendment of the United States Bill of Rights, which states: "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech or of the press." The words of the Canadian guarantee acknowledge the state's right to limit free speech; the words of the American forbid the state from doing so.



and yet

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedo..._United_States
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