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Old 07-16-2021, 10:54 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,547 posts, read 28,630,498 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saibot View Post
Anyway, how does people in a region "having had money" centuries ago have any connection with the need for people in that region to get an education and earn money today?
I think our friend means to imply that the national wealth of most European countries is so great and their government programs and infrastructure are so strong that individual Europeans don't need to be that concerned about pushing themselves academically or chasing money in the same way that many Americans do.

It is an intriguing hypothesis.
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Old 07-17-2021, 07:40 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,547 posts, read 28,630,498 times
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The truth of the matter is that the people who push themselves the hardest academically in the United States are disproportionately first or second generation immigrants/Americans, and especially people of Asian heritage.

You will see this at the Ivy League and other top universities, engineering and science departments on many campuses, etc.
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Old 07-17-2021, 09:24 AM
psv
 
55 posts, read 36,170 times
Reputation: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by saibot View Post
Based on my experiences with my German brother and sister-in-law, who both are university graduates and have jobs (actually, brother-in-law is between jobs and quite worried about it), and their two children, who are now college-aged and planning their careers, this isn't true at all. Those things are very, very important and objects of white-hot focus for them, at least.

Anyway, how does people in a region "having had money" centuries ago have any connection with the need for people in that region to get an education and earn money today?

The obsession with STATUS and trying to elevate one's status via fancy cars, huge homes, prestigious university degrees is largely a demonstration of a new money society. Think East Asians (minus Japanese) and Americans in the 50's - 60's. Hence the obsession with ivy league schools, giant homes (look at the tacky mcmansions in the US and now China), being loud, demanding, boisterous). This is all very NEW MONEY.


Prestigious universities are basically selling you an expensive product..... get a degree with us and get the prestige that comes with it!! (Ironically none of the top 100 CEOS come from ivy league schools) - Not different from BMW selling Arab men the so called prestige that comes with owning a white BMW. (hence one of BMW's biggest demographics of buyers for white BMW's it's young Arab men)

https://www.theladders.com/career-ad...rtune-100-ceos


Western Europeans have other social traits of their own, such as cynicism, looking down on social climbers (Like old money does), being champagne socialists, everyone needing to have a winter home in Spain, summer home in France), thinking that people that cannot speak of philosophy is uneducated are very very common traits around Europe's class conscious. However the continuous search of status via fancy ivy league schools in the US is NOT one of them.

It boils down to :

BRAND NEW- NEW MONEY
East Asians who socially think status is social climbing and consuming expensive products such as Ivy league school college degrees, fancy cars, high fashion.

NEW MONEY

Americans who think status is chasing job titles and salaries (They are past the consumerism of East Asians) and claiming they are connected with Western Europe. Hence their obsession with racial categories, always with a bias in pro of anything European and clinging onto European ancestors!!!

OLD WORLD MONEY
Western Europeans who think social status is showing how little social status one has while being arrogant and cynical and looking down on those without refinement like East Asians or Americans.

Last edited by psv; 07-17-2021 at 09:47 AM..
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Old 07-17-2021, 09:28 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,547 posts, read 28,630,498 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psv View Post
Asians are the perfect example, look at how poor they have been for centuries and look at how obsessed they are with socioeconomic status and pushing their kids to succeed.
So, what would you have people do? Get left behind and remain poor for their entire lives?
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Old 07-17-2021, 09:56 AM
psv
 
55 posts, read 36,170 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
I think our friend means to imply that the national wealth of most European countries is so great and their government programs and infrastructure are so strong that individual Europeans don't need to be that concerned about pushing themselves academically or chasing money in the same way that many Americans do.

It is an intriguing hypothesis.
That is a HUGE part of it.

I've lived in Switzerland where you literally do not have to worry about anything in regards to unemployment, health care, lack of security. You can work as a cashier at a supermarket in any of the cantons in Switzerland and go in June to Tahiti for three weeks!

When a society reaches that level of wealth, people no longer see having BMW's, huge homes in suburbia, fancy Ivy league school degrees as success. (Americans do not have anywhere near that degree of wealth)

Societies that wealthy become the opposite of what Americans value....
-Having a BMW is tacky.
-Having the biggest house is tacky.
-Cookie cutter suburban living (That is for trash)
-buying buying buying (trashy!)

Suddenly status comes thru the claim of:
- I have no status: Hence I lived for a year in India surrounded by poor people in an exotic slum where I was the only European around.
- You're so inferior because all you care about is money, unlike myself (I am so evolved), hence I can talk about philosophy!!!
- Greta Thunberg the Swedish eco warrior is a fantastic example of old money attitude. (I am here to save the world because I am so evolved, unlike all that new money trash destroying the planet looking to become a superior being like me)


It is all a very known socioeconomic reality of societies divided by NEW WEALTH VERSUS OLD WEALTH!
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Old 07-17-2021, 09:58 AM
psv
 
55 posts, read 36,170 times
Reputation: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
So, what would you have people do? Get left behind and remain poor for their entire lives?
No one is saying is wrong to push kids... I am simply exposing the characteristics of a very new money society that is leaving the legacy of poverty behind.
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Old 07-17-2021, 12:12 PM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,547 posts, read 28,630,498 times
Reputation: 25116
Quote:
Originally Posted by psv View Post
No one is saying is wrong to push kids... I am simply exposing the characteristics of a very new money society that is leaving the legacy of poverty behind.
In the United States, schoolchildren are taught that this country is a land of opportunity in which you strive your best to make your own destiny.

Are schoolchildren in western Europe taught they can do whatever they want or even coast through life, and the government will take care of them?
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Old 07-17-2021, 12:55 PM
 
14,299 posts, read 11,677,294 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psv View Post
That is a HUGE part of it.

I've lived in Switzerland where you literally do not have to worry about anything in regards to unemployment, health care, lack of security. You can work as a cashier at a supermarket in any of the cantons in Switzerland and go in June to Tahiti for three weeks!

When a society reaches that level of wealth, people no longer see having BMW's, huge homes in suburbia, fancy Ivy league school degrees as success. (Americans do not have anywhere near that degree of wealth)

Societies that wealthy become the opposite of what Americans value....
-Having a BMW is tacky.
-Having the biggest house is tacky.
-Cookie cutter suburban living (That is for trash)
-buying buying buying (trashy!)

Suddenly status comes thru the claim of:
- I have no status: Hence I lived for a year in India surrounded by poor people in an exotic slum where I was the only European around.
- You're so inferior because all you care about is money, unlike myself (I am so evolved), hence I can talk about philosophy!!!
- Greta Thunberg the Swedish eco warrior is a fantastic example of old money attitude. (I am here to save the world because I am so evolved, unlike all that new money trash destroying the planet looking to become a superior being like me)


It is all a very known socioeconomic reality of societies divided by NEW WEALTH VERSUS OLD WEALTH!
This is really interesting and I suspect mostly true. My German relatives have a Mercedes and a single-family house with big yard in a Munich suburb, they work long hours and overtime, and they are pushing education on their kids. BUT my brother-in-law grew up in the US and sister-in-law in communist Romania. So, despite having lived in Germany since their early 20s, they're quite influenced by their upbringing and, from what I read above, apparently atypical of native-born Germans. .
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Old 07-17-2021, 01:52 PM
 
103 posts, read 92,207 times
Reputation: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by psv View Post
The obsession with STATUS and trying to elevate one's status via fancy cars, huge homes, prestigious university degrees is largely a demonstration of a new money society. Think East Asians (minus Japanese) and Americans in the 50's - 60's. Hence the obsession with ivy league schools, giant homes (look at the tacky mcmansions in the US and now China), being loud, demanding, boisterous). This is all very NEW MONEY.


Prestigious universities are basically selling you an expensive product..... get a degree with us and get the prestige that comes with it!! (Ironically none of the top 100 CEOS come from ivy league schools) - Not different from BMW selling Arab men the so called prestige that comes with owning a white BMW. (hence one of BMW's biggest demographics of buyers for white BMW's it's young Arab men)

https://www.theladders.com/career-ad...rtune-100-ceos


Western Europeans have other social traits of their own, such as cynicism, looking down on social climbers (Like old money does), being champagne socialists, everyone needing to have a winter home in Spain, summer home in France), thinking that people that cannot speak of philosophy is uneducated are very very common traits around Europe's class conscious. However the continuous search of status via fancy ivy league schools in the US is NOT one of them.

It boils down to :

BRAND NEW- NEW MONEY
East Asians who socially think status is social climbing and consuming expensive products such as Ivy league school college degrees, fancy cars, high fashion.

NEW MONEY

Americans who think status is chasing job titles and salaries (They are past the consumerism of East Asians) and claiming they are connected with Western Europe. Hence their obsession with racial categories, always with a bias in pro of anything European and clinging onto European ancestors!!!

OLD WORLD MONEY
Western Europeans who think social status is showing how little social status one has while being arrogant and cynical and looking down on those without refinement like East Asians or Americans.
Very insightful perspective. To be honest, I do see a similar culture in the richest areas of the United States(though it might be a small minority and not representative of the country as a whole) to Western Europe. Where you have this liberals who also value similar things like arts, culture, travelling. Like liberals in NYC..etc.
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Old 07-17-2021, 03:16 PM
psv
 
55 posts, read 36,170 times
Reputation: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by saibot View Post
This is really interesting and I suspect mostly true. My German relatives have a Mercedes and a single-family house with big yard in a Munich suburb, they work long hours and overtime, and they are pushing education on their kids. BUT my brother-in-law grew up in the US and sister-in-law in communist Romania. So, despite having lived in Germany since their early 20s, they're quite influenced by their upbringing and, from what I read above, apparently atypical of native-born Germans. .
Go talk to old school well off West Germans (Due to communism East Germans never got to be as wealthy) and they are busy trying to save the planet and looking down on the "masses" for not recycling!


Venture into Eastern Europe and suddenly everyone has a BMW, apartments loaded with stuff, everything has to brand new, I mean in Western Europe, eastern european guys are known for walking around dressed in Gucci or versace from head to toe!!!

The US is a mixture of old money and new money.....
While a segment of the US is fat, mass consuming, love everything big, loud, shinny..... the other segment of the US is busy eating lettuce for dinner, living minimalistic and silently thinking people who drive SUV's and own guns should die!!

This is especially notorious amongst the American millennials, that is mostly because the baby boomers were largely a post war new money generation.... You also see that divide in the red state blue state phenomenon! (Blue states tend to have more generational wealth)

Japanese are also pretty old money at this point.... while new money chinese and koreans commit suicide for not being the first ones in their class and have become known for their love of plastic surgery to look perfect and better.

The chinese, especially since they have been historically so poor now that they can afford to consume they have notoriously obnoxious, their tourists are despised worldwide!! Everything with them is about has become, me me me status seeking me me me!!

Then go back to a rich western European country with long money like Sweden and you have eco warriors, minimalists, saviours of humanity who think not being able to talk about philosophy or science makes you inferior!!

Switzerland opened my eyes.... I met people ridiculously rich, heirs of fortunes who think that suffering in a slum in Africa makes them great human beings!! (I knew a Swiss girl like that, her family with a networth of about 700 million euros).... all she did was go to third world countries looking for herself!! An eternal quest. Then dinner with her meant discussing the magical realism of Latin American literature or the causes for the prominence of nudity in renaissance paintings!)

One time she told me that in confidence she finds that the chinese and Russians are her least favorite people because they act like primates when they are around golden objects, they certainly lack dignity!!! (referencing the fact chinese and Russians are status seeking)

Last edited by psv; 07-17-2021 at 03:32 PM..
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