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Old 09-21-2023, 04:35 PM
 
1,618 posts, read 816,833 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MalaMan View Post
That's ironic since all this BRICS non-sense started because a Western economist from Goldman Sachs, called Jim O’Neill, coined the acronym BRICs in 2001 to describe the collective grouping of the four "emerging" market economies - Brazil, Russia, India and China.

I'm Brazilian and I admit that when the actual "bloc" started to be formed, back in 2009, I thought that could be a good idea, since it could bring some good opportunities to Brazil in terms of trade and of technological exchange. Remember at that time the president of Russia was Dmitry Medvedev and the president of China was Hu Jintao. That was before the "Arab spring" and all the geopolitical mess that started after that, and way before the invasion of Crimea.

Back then, I didn't see it as something with the aim of "confronting the West" since I think Brazil is a Western country (as the other Latin American countries, after all we speak European languages - Spanish, Portuguese - the majority religion is Christianity, and most countries are democracies with constitutions inspired by the constitutions of European countries).

Today I think BRICS was actually a terrible idea, Brazil didn't gain ANYTHING from this, and now we are "friends" with Russia and China, that I personally call the new Axis of Evil.

I think Brazil and India should distance themselves from China and Russia, and choose the democracies as their allies (not only Western democracies, but the Asian democracies as well, like Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, Indonesia).
I don't think BRICS was formed as a means to counter the West, but rather a means for those countries to protect themselves from Western economic coercion. Unfortunately, anything formed for defense can be modified for offense, so the West will do what it can to prevent a rival system. Calling countries a "axis of evil" because they don't adhere to a culture, government system, or an ideology is dangerous. It's how we end up in these endless conflicts. There is no such thing as good or bad, moral or immoral this level. Countries actions are dictated by their interest not their government type. It is what it is.
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Old 09-21-2023, 07:17 PM
 
1,000 posts, read 343,874 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice_Major View Post
Are they moving closer to the West or merely exploiting the west for gain? I mean they are a central part of BRICS, an organization some would say was formed to rival or at least get from under the thumb of the West.
This right here.

They have no intention of becoming like the west. Indian civilization is older than the west, you simply don't give up something like that. Just because the west has dropped much of their culture and hertiage doesn't mean the rest of the world will. They want what the west has though.
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Old 09-21-2023, 09:22 PM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
9,096 posts, read 13,110,836 times
Reputation: 10046
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice_Major View Post
I wouldn't say India needs the West more. Would they like for more manufacturing jobs, weapons, and technology transfer, I imagine so. However, India has lasted this long without these items. The border dispute dates to the days of the British Empire. Becoming friendly with the West will not change this issue. In fact, it could make it worse. Just look Ukraine. I wasn't aware of China surrounding India with military bases. If you have a source, please share. Maybe you’re referring to India becoming surrounded by Chinese friendly nations. Becoming a manufacturing hub is great, but it comes with a cost. Look at what happened to Japan in the 80s. Look at what they are trying to do to China now.

India is in a unique position. It has good relations with most of the world's other major powers. While the relationship with China isn't the greatest, both seem to be comfortable with being frenemies. In some regard it’s in the same position as the U.S. pre-WWI. In this position it can extract concessions from the other powers. Right now, it's flexing its muscle, as this incident shows.
If you read India defense sources, you can read more detail but sometimes it is called the String of Pearls policy of China (military bases across the Indian ocean areas).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String..._(Indian_Ocean)

Many commentators in India believe this plan, together with the China–Pakistan Economic Corridor and other parts of China's Belt and Road Initiative under Chinese Communist Party general secretary Xi Jinping, is a threat to India's national security.[2][3] Such a system would encircle India[2] and threaten its power projection, trade, and potentially territorial integrity.[4] Furthermore, China's support for India's traditional enemy of Pakistan and its Gwadar Port is viewed as a threat, compounded by fears that China may develop an overseas naval military base in Gwadar,[2] which could allow China to conduct expeditionary warfare in the Indian Ocean Region.[5] From the east, the deep-water port of Kyaukpyu is also viewed with a similar concern.[3] The first comprehensive academic analyses of Chinese plan and its security implications for New Delhi was undertaken in February 2008 by an active-duty Indian naval officer.[6] Antedating China's anti-piracy naval deployment in the Indian Ocean beginning in December 2008, and the ensuing acquisition of its first overseas military base in Djibouti in Atugust 2017, his analysis predicting China's "permanent military presence" in the Indian Ocean is viewed by Indian policymakers as prescient. Accordingly, India has since been making moves of various types to counter the threat.

I do agree with you that India is in a unique position in the sense that India enjoys good relations with the Western nations (including a growing relationship with Japan) and also Russia. This is exactly what Russia herself should have done, try to balance among the different powers and coalitions.
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Old 09-22-2023, 04:56 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,758 posts, read 37,656,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luisito80 View Post
This right here.

They have no intention of becoming like the west. Indian civilization is older than the west, you simply don't give up something like that. Just because the west has dropped much of their culture and hertiage doesn't mean the rest of the world will. They want what the west has though.
Exactly. People in western countries have this illusion that the whole world dreams of being like the West.

Even most people who move to western countries from the rest of the world don't want to be like westerners in terms of values and culture. They want the material comforts only from us.
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Old 09-22-2023, 10:44 PM
 
1,618 posts, read 816,833 times
Reputation: 2551
Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
If you read India defense sources, you can read more detail but sometimes it is called the String of Pearls policy of China (military bases across the Indian ocean areas).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String..._(Indian_Ocean)

Many commentators in India believe this plan, together with the China–Pakistan Economic Corridor and other parts of China's Belt and Road Initiative under Chinese Communist Party general secretary Xi Jinping, is a threat to India's national security.[2][3] Such a system would encircle India[2] and threaten its power projection, trade, and potentially territorial integrity.[4] Furthermore, China's support for India's traditional enemy of Pakistan and its Gwadar Port is viewed as a threat, compounded by fears that China may develop an overseas naval military base in Gwadar,[2] which could allow China to conduct expeditionary warfare in the Indian Ocean Region.[5] From the east, the deep-water port of Kyaukpyu is also viewed with a similar concern.[3] The first comprehensive academic analyses of Chinese plan and its security implications for New Delhi was undertaken in February 2008 by an active-duty Indian naval officer.[6] Antedating China's anti-piracy naval deployment in the Indian Ocean beginning in December 2008, and the ensuing acquisition of its first overseas military base in Djibouti in Atugust 2017, his analysis predicting China's "permanent military presence" in the Indian Ocean is viewed by Indian policymakers as prescient. Accordingly, India has since been making moves of various types to counter the threat.

I do agree with you that India is in a unique position in the sense that India enjoys good relations with the Western nations (including a growing relationship with Japan) and also Russia. This is exactly what Russia herself should have done, try to balance among the different powers and coalitions.
I'm not so sure those actions ae meant to encircle India. If anything they seem predicated on bypassing the First Island Chain formed by the U.S. and its allies, though I understand how India could see it as a threat. Regarding Pakistan, the U.S. is just as big of a friend to Pakistan as China. Historically the U.S. sided with Pakistan over India. That may be changing now, but I'm sure India's hasn't forgot especially with recent actions such as the U.S. allegedly supporting what was essentially a military coup, as well as facilitating a IMF loan for the country.
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Old 09-22-2023, 10:46 PM
 
1,618 posts, read 816,833 times
Reputation: 2551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Exactly. People in western countries have this illusion that the whole world dreams of being like the West.

Even most people who move to western countries from the rest of the world don't want to be like westerners in terms of values and culture. They want the material comforts only from us.
To be fair, we're fed this narrative from birth and if you live in a Western country it's easy to believe since there are so many immigrants trying to get into the country.
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Old 09-25-2023, 01:49 AM
 
283 posts, read 326,742 times
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Unfortunately assasination attempts made by states aren't unheard of. I'm not saying that india did it but the US openly brags about the ones they make.

I get the impression that the West isn't too happy with Modi right now. For one There was speculation that Modi won't attend the last BRICS summit, but not only did he do it but cooperated with China and Russia to expand BRICS to another 6 countries, and to work to create a new trading currency away from the Dollar.

Afaik states aren't always outspoken with their suspicions of assasination attempts by other states. But the Five Eyes countries maybe looking for a way to get back at India for its coorporation with their adversaries, which I'm afraid might have the reverse effect and pull India away from the West.

Last edited by ciTydude123; 09-25-2023 at 02:04 AM..
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Old 09-25-2023, 01:56 AM
 
283 posts, read 326,742 times
Reputation: 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Exactly. People in western countries have this illusion that the whole world dreams of being like the West.

Even most people who move to western countries from the rest of the world don't want to be like westerners in terms of values and culture. They want the material comforts only from us.
India's a civilisation in itself with thousands of years of history, modern America's only few hundred.

People need to understand that India sees itself as a great power. And what do great powers do? They follow their own path and they don't let others dictate to them on what to do.

There's a global confrontation emerging between the West and Russia and China, and India is simply playing both sides to get the best for itself.

So the West thinking it can fully get India on board under the US sphere I think is unrealistic. India will pretend to satisfy one bloc, get the benefits, then they'll turn to the other and ask for the same.
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Old 09-25-2023, 12:04 PM
 
Location: Toronto
15,109 posts, read 15,709,886 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ciTydude123 View Post
Unfortunately assasination attempts made by states aren't unheard of. I'm not saying that india did it but the US openly brags about the ones they make.

I get the impression that the West isn't too happy with Modi right now. For one There was speculation that Modi won't attend the last BRICS summit, but not only did he do it but cooperated with China and Russia to expand BRICS to another 6 countries, and to work to create a new trading currency away from the Dollar.

Afaik states aren't always outspoken with their suspicions of assasination attempts by other states. But the Five Eyes countries maybe looking for a way to get back at India for its coorporation with their adversaries, which I'm afraid might have the reverse effect and pull India away from the West.
The difference with this one is that it is the first that we know of whereby India has done it on western soil. This is why even if the other members of the Five eye countries including your own, aren't publicly saying we back Canada on this over India - I think based on the intelligence gathered they are aware of Indian complicity in it. It was was also American intelligence that actually passed along intelligence to CSIS (Canadian intelligence) that drilled down further

https://www.cnbctv18.com/world/harde...s-17867921.htm

So behind the scenes - I imagine five eye countries are speaking on more cohesive terms to indian authorities with a warning about it regardless of them not publicly berating India about it. I think Trudeau went public because the media were about to leak it anyway.

I get Americans do this in other countries but it would be highly unlikely for them to do it with other generally friendly western democracies. If China or Russia did this, it would be less shocking than India.

Last edited by fusion2; 09-25-2023 at 12:20 PM..
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Old 09-25-2023, 12:42 PM
 
283 posts, read 326,742 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
The difference with this one is that it is the first that we know of whereby India has done it on western soil.

I get Americans do this in other countries but it would be highly unlikely for them to do it with other generally friendly western democracies. If China or Russia did this, it would be less shocking than India.
I didn't dig much into the specifics so I don't know about the validity of the accusations.

"Western democracy" or everywhere else we're talking assassination attempts, does it make a difference who did it? There is nothing such as one side is good and the other is evil, and nothing is surprising. The fact of whether it's you or the other who did it, the effect is the same.

The difference is that US perceives itself to be all powerful, and it dominates the global information space enough to have most of the world's media sympathetic towards its cause. So it do stuff like bragging about its assassination of the Iranian general and get away with it, whereas if its adversaries did the same they'll be attacked left and right for eons.

You're right in that the Five Eyes intelligence is all interconnected and collaborating. Afaik none of the other 4 countries publicly mentioned their position but I think it's likely they would have first agreed for Canada to make the allegations.

I'll have to edit... I read your comment again and I see I misinterpreted your last sentence. Your point is valid just as if the US doing it on Iran is less shocking.

Last edited by ciTydude123; 09-25-2023 at 01:05 PM..
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