Europe's Immigration Problems (house, bankruptcy, military)

[happynoodleboycey]

Originally Posted by varduren

you have NO idea how right u r. in britain, they ALWAYS complain about how no one wants to learn english or adopt their ways and so on, then go off and colonise spain and other places and dont even learn the language!

Welcome to the hypocritical little Isle we live in.

In my opinion, the problem is not illegal immigration but rather the relative ease with which almost anyone can seem to be able to get in. I don't advocate completely blocking off the borders because immigrants have an important role to play in society and are part of what make this country the multicultural melting pot that it is. It would be a crying shame in nobody at all was allowed in. What should happen, though, is that the restrictions on who is allowed in should be tighter. No longer should we have this turnstile of an immigration system.

We need something in place whereby immigrants should be made to prove that no Briton is willing or able to do the job that they're lined up for (a bit like the American system), so as to ensure that they're not taking jobs away from British workers. Also, they should be made to take language aptitude tests. I am aware that the PC freaks have condemned this as discrimination but frankly, if you're going to live and work here then you should show respect to your hosts by at least learning enough to get by. Nobody's saying they should be made to study to the point of having the linguistic dexterity of Shakespeare but the fact that people are allowed to settle here who don't even take the time to learn one sentence really peeves me and a lot of other people off. If more learned the language, I think it would help to relax some of the feelings of disdain towards them because it would demonstrate that they're willing to try to integrate into our society. I love multicultural, multinational societies but we can't just allow the world and his wife in.

[Winston Smith]

Originally Posted by jja100

Yeah, reread what you said and tell me this isn't a problem.

Euro-Christians flooded North America and killed the majority of its inhabitants... the Native American Indians. The issue of increased Muslims in European government can lead to theocratic laws based on Islamic faith. Who knows, maybe they will just start killing Europeans?

My point was merely to show that people are people. But I also believe the world has moved a little beyond Manifest Destiny by now. Don't you?

Originally Posted by jja100

And what makes you think that if Muslims enter European governments that they won't infringe upon your rights?

Democracy is a funny thing. We need it because people are basically un-democratic. I believe there is always a danger that my rights will be infringed upon. I just refuse to make a scapegoat out of one group. The Christian fundamentalists (i.e. Bible-Belt evangelical whacks) in the U.S. pose a big threat to my rights with their wanting to turn the country into a fundamentalist theocratic state. I won't stand for it from them, Muslims or any other group. We all need our eye on our democracy's constitution and assure a commitment to it -- no matter who is in power or what they believe. Again, democracy is needed because people are not democratic.

[jja100]

Originally Posted by Winston Smith

My point was merely to show that people are people. But I also believe the world has moved a little beyond Manifest Destiny by now. Don't you?

No, I do not. Nazis existed only 70 years ago. The Roman Empire existed 2000 years ago, now we have America as the new Empire. History repeats itself over and over again. The assumption that humans are docile creatures is Utopic nonsense. Man is inherantly evil. We will do what is necessary to survive. Rules and laws are the only thing that keep us in check and when you start bending them, that is what creates chaos and anarchy.

Secondly, Islam is spread by the sword. It has to objectively target an outside evil that it needs to vanquish in order to sustain its following.

Originally Posted by Winston Smith

Democracy is a funny thing. We need it because people are basically un-democratic. I believe there is always a danger that my rights will be infringed upon. I just refuse to make a scapegoat out of one group. The Christian fundamentalists (i.e. Bible-Belt evangelical whacks) in the U.S. pose a big threat to my rights with their wanting to turn the country into a fundamentalist theocratic state. I won't stand for it from them, Muslims or any other group. We all need our eye on our democracy's constitution and assure a commitment to it -- no matter who is in power or what they believe. Again, democracy is needed because people are not democratic.

Democracy is a fairytale. No country runs under a democracy...Democracy is just a false facade. It is basically a dictatorship in disguise. Give people the means to vent through voting ballots and fragment society through political parties so they can't unify and fight back. "So-called" democracy works because smart politicians understand that people do not like to be told what to do even if it is best for them and so they include the public on decision making policies but in the end manipulate the votes to pass whatever agenda they needed.

As for the Christian fundamentalists... they are just as bad. There is really no reason for religion, it cause more problems than it solves. The problem with religion is that faith is very difficult to break down. No politician will challenge the power of faith... it needs to dissolve in power slowly on its own with a public that is more educated.





Iceland is VERY liberal when it comes to homosexuality, immigration, and business. How do they retain a population of 93% Icelandic? Because they make their language an "official language" and not a "de facto" one like the US. They also follow jure sanguis like the rest of Europe. And they limit jobs to those who are productive and only give them to Icelandic unemployed first before immigrants.

[effie g-tad]

Originally Posted by pigeonhole

All those pro immigrant people should open their doors and welcome home those immigrants, don't they see our societies can't cope with this massive influx of people, it's obvious, but soon you won't even have the right to say so, you will be branded "racist", "fascist", and so on.
Our civilization is on the verge of collapse : mass immigration, economic crisis, climate change, pollution, overpopulation, increasing violence, here are some of the woes that afflict us today . What wonderful times are we living! (here I'm kidding of course, awful times really!)

i know what you mean.
people never really got off their bums to walk their talk. demanding all sorts of "liberal" policies and leaving it to evergreen institutions and organisations to do their work. do their thinking as well.

no chance to be kind enough to each other any more. so it seems.

(imho)


p.s. i do NOT lobby for any further misguided "raison d'état", etc.

[Winston Smith]

Originally Posted by jja100

No, I do not. Nazis existed only 70 years ago. The Roman Empire existed 2000 years ago, now we have America as the new Empire. History repeats itself over and over again. The assumption that humans are docile creatures is Utopic nonsense. Man is inherantly evil. We will do what is necessary to survive. Rules and laws are the only thing that keep us in check and when you start bending them, that is what creates chaos and anarchy.

Secondly, Islam is spread by the sword. It has to objectively target an outside evil that it needs to vanquish in order to sustain its following.



Democracy is a fairytale. No country runs under a democracy...Democracy is just a false facade. It is basically a dictatorship in disguise. Give people the means to vent through voting ballots and fragment society through political parties so they can't unify and fight back. "So-called" democracy works because smart politicians understand that people do not like to be told what to do even if it is best for them and so they include the public on decision making policies but in the end manipulate the votes to pass whatever agenda they needed.

As for the Christian fundamentalists... they are just as bad. There is really no reason for religion, it cause more problems than it solves. The problem with religion is that faith is very difficult to break down. No politician will challenge the power of faith... it needs to dissolve in power slowly on its own with a public that is more educated.





. How do they retain a population of 93% Icelandic? Because they make their language an "official language" and not a "de facto" one like the US. They also follow jure sanguis like the rest of Europe. And they limit jobs to those who are productive and only give them to Icelandic unemployed first before immigrants.

Ok, let's just say jaded and cynical. Doesn't make you and those who agree with you completely right or wrong. You have your view. Keep it. I don't agree. Doesn't make me wrong. After reading the above, I'm fairly convinced there's no debating or discussing with you. There seems to be little hope. Democracy is a farce and immigration is out of control. Something like that? Maybe you just wanted to vent. Ok, vent! I'd rather have a productive discussion.

Iceland??? There are as many people in my half of the county as the entire nation of Iceland!

[jja100]

Originally Posted by Winston Smith

Ok, let's just say jaded and cynical. Doesn't make you and those who agree with you completely right or wrong. You have your view. Keep it. I don't agree. Doesn't make me wrong. After reading the above, I'm fairly convinced there's no debating or discussing with you. There seems to be little hope. Democracy is a farce and immigration is out of control. Something like that? Maybe you just wanted to vent. Ok, vent! I'd rather have a productive discussion.

Iceland??? There are as many people in my half of the county as the entire nation of Iceland!

This is the usual response I get from the so called "free thinkers". You don't want to even give me the benefit of the doubt that I may be correct on this issue because it differs from what you believe. I honestly don't mind if you don't agree so long as you can provide statistics, facts, and/or historical references that challenge my arguments.

You have given up debating with me because you lack the data to form a counterargument.

I am not here to vent. I am here to hopefully enlighten some people and to get them to think a little bit more deeply about the issues that we face around the world today instead of blindly accepting the rhetoric that is thrown into the newspapers, media, schools, universities within the western world. Why do these instruments all have the same message? Maybe because they have an agenda?

The only reason we are not having a productive discussion is because you refuse to acknowledge anything I have to say as truth or fact despite the evidence I have provided. I can even cite my sources.

Iceland is too small for you? How about China, is that a big enough country for you? There are still countries left in the world that still regard "multiculturalism" sceptically. Some are free and some are not as I so meticulously demonstrated.

[effie g-tad]

great prospects so far (although very eloquently presented):

- the schengen treaty is incompatible with a unified approach to language skills testing.

- with jobs getting more scarce with every new day, menial labor will reduce even an ageing local populace to competing with physically stronger young slaves coming from wherever.

- bleeding for the country, the military solution: thanks a bunch, gentlemen! imho, of course.

thinkers from other planets (stars? pun completely unintentional!) may/need not apply! (today the word is "unqualified", some time ago it was "lebensunwert".)

[effie g-tad]

^
anyone not completely off to anarchy would and will agree with democracy having to have a solid defense system.

however, the majority of people today can access sufficient education to reasonably conclude that democracy's most important underpinning is social justice, across all existing or redundant borders.

imho.

and from here, the respective governments need to remedy a lot of bs they allowed to cross all borders beyond good reasoning, in the past 30 odd years.

[Eduardo983]

Italy's Parliament gave final approval to a controversial law that criminalises illegal immigration and legalises unarmed vigilante patrols by citizens.

"irregular" immigrants could be barred from marrying Italians and from registering the birth of their children, "so the children ... shall for their entire lives be the children of unknown parents ...

"irregular migrants will ... be prevented from accessing school, medical [including emergency] care and being protected by security forces against crime".

The law will also oblige doctors, teachers and civil servants to report immigrants whom they discover are illegal to the authorities.

The legislation calls for jail terms for people who house illegal immigrants and lengthens the amount of time migrants can spend in detention.

Many Italians link crime to illegal immigration, and the Government has taken a tough stance against both.

The new legislation makes entering or staying in Italy without permission a crime punishable by a fine of €5000 ($11,340) to €10,000. Migrants would not face prison, but the legislation allows up to three years in jail for anyone who knowingly rents housing to an illegal immigrant at the time a lease is signed or extended.

The package also lengthens the amount of time migrants can spend in detention from two to six months. It allows citizen patrols to help increase security in Italian cities and towns - a measure critics say paves the way for vigilante justice.

Anti-immigrant law legalises vigilante patrols by citizens - World - NZ Herald News

Italy adopts controversial law against illegal immigration

Italy approves anti-immigration bill | International | Reuters

Under the new law, illegal immigration becomes a criminal offence; anyone caught housing an illegal immigrant could face jail; and parents registering a baby's birth have to present papers to show they are legal residents.

The new law makes illegal immigration a criminal offence punishable by a fine of between 5,000 and 10,000 euros ($7,000 and 14,000 dollars US) and immediate expulsion.

Parents will also have to present their passport or residency permit when they declare the birth of a child, which some critics have warned could lead to a generation of "invisible" children growing up outside the system.

Italian writers including Andrea Camilleri, Antonio Tabucchi and Nobel prize winner Dario Fo signed a statement denouncing "discriminatory standards against immigrants, unknown in Europe since the era of racial laws."

The letter, signed by Andrea Camilleri, the Sicilian writer, and the Nobel prize-winning dramatist Dario Fo among others, said: "The Berlusconi Government, using security as a pretext, has imposed ... laws the like of which we have not seen in this country since the passing of the Fascist Race Law."

The Catholic Church has also repeatedly criticized the measures, which civil rights groups say could deter illegal immigrants from seeking hospital treatment or enrolling their children in school for fear of being reported to police.
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Italians have vigilante patrols because they have an homogenous population, and is easy for them to recognize an irregular migrant.

In U.S. people can`t do the same because in our mixed blood race society, people can`t visually recognize an irregular migrant (unless, the person looks like a homeless and begs for a job).

Well, it is amazing how a country like Italy, who used to be a massive net exporter of migrants during decades, has become a country with such controversial laws.

Italians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[jja100]

Originally Posted by Eduardo983

Italy's Parliament gave final approval to a controversial law that criminalises illegal immigration and legalises unarmed vigilante patrols by citizens.

This part of the law already displays weakness. Giving the power to the people to legally protect themselves should have already been a right. It shows further weakness in that it alludes that Italy lacks the military/police manpower to enforce the very law they are attempting to create.

Originally Posted by Eduardo983

"irregular" immigrants could be barred from marrying Italians and from registering the birth of their children, "so the children ... shall for their entire lives be the children of unknown parents ...

I would like to know how they will attempt to enforce this. All this component of the law will do is ensure that slaves will give birth to more slaves. The demographic problem will get even worse.

Originally Posted by Eduardo983

"irregular migrants will ... be prevented from accessing school, medical [including emergency] care and being protected by security forces against crime".

Shouldn't this already be a law. This law should have already been in effect long ago... especially for socialist countries that have programs. You can see how the insolvency issue would eventually come if this law isn't instituted immediately.

Originally Posted by Eduardo983

The law will also oblige doctors, teachers and civil servants to report immigrants whom they discover are illegal to the authorities.

I doubt Italians will do this. They didn't do it when the German national socialist movement demanded that Jews be reported.

Originally Posted by Eduardo983

The legislation calls for jail terms for people who house illegal immigrants and lengthens the amount of time migrants can spend in detention.

The more time a migrant spends in detention... the more tax dollars are used to support them within the confines of this detention.

Originally Posted by Eduardo983

Many Italians link crime to illegal immigration, and the Government has taken a tough stance against both.

The reasons why Italians feel this way is because it is true for the most part. If you look at the statistics... 85% of the crime is from Romanian and North Africans. Whether the statistics are conducted ethically is another matter.

Originally Posted by Eduardo983

The new legislation makes entering or staying in Italy without permission a crime punishable by a fine of €5000 ($11,340) to €10,000. Migrants would not face prison, but the legislation allows up to three years in jail for anyone who knowingly rents housing to an illegal immigrant at the time a lease is signed or extended.

This is laughable. The reason why illegal migrant workers are attempting to enter a country is for money and hopes of a better life. They have no money. If the fine is for the people who house the illegal immigrants... well if they don't have any money, they need to attach a lien to the home for the dollar amount. When the property is inherited, the extraction of the funds can come through the liquidation of the home unless the heirs have the ability to pay.

Originally Posted by Eduardo983

The package also lengthens the amount of time migrants can spend in detention from two to six months. It allows citizen patrols to help increase security in Italian cities and towns - a measure critics say paves the way for vigilante justice.

Great, more jail time and more tax dollars. European countries should removes themselves from the Eurozone, reinstate their sovereignty and send the migrants back. Next employ more military and police to patrol the waters so they have a harder time entering the land itself. Wow there is a notion... more jobs.

Anti-immigrant law legalises vigilante patrols by citizens - World - NZ Herald News

Italy adopts controversial law against illegal immigration

Italy approves anti-immigration bill | International | Reuters

Originally Posted by Eduardo983

Under the new law, illegal immigration becomes a criminal offence; anyone caught housing an illegal immigrant could face jail; and parents registering a baby's birth have to present papers to show they are legal residents.

Shouldn't illegal immigration already be a criminal offence? Redundancy

Originally Posted by Eduardo983

The new law makes illegal immigration a criminal offence punishable by a fine of between 5,000 and 10,000 euros ($7,000 and 14,000 dollars US) and immediate expulsion.

Redundancy

Originally Posted by Eduardo983

Parents will also have to present their passport or residency permit when they declare the birth of a child, which some critics have warned could lead to a generation of "invisible" children growing up outside the system.

These children will not be invisible, they should have the citizenship of their home country that they emigrated from. There is no need for documenting people that do not rightfully belong in a country because they shouldn't even be there.

Originally Posted by Eduardo983

Italian writers including Andrea Camilleri, Antonio Tabucchi and Nobel prize winner Dario Fo signed a statement denouncing "discriminatory standards against immigrants, unknown in Europe since the era of racial laws."

This day and age they are throwing Nobel Prizes out like hotcakes. Of course they oppose, their career depends upon it.

Originally Posted by Eduardo983

The letter, signed by Andrea Camilleri, the Sicilian writer, and the Nobel prize-winning dramatist Dario Fo among others, said: "The Berlusconi Government, using security as a pretext, has imposed ... laws the like of which we have not seen in this country since the passing of the Fascist Race Law."

Instead of holding Italy's government accountable for the laws it makes to protect itself, why don't these writers hold the foreign governments where these migrants derive accountable for the exportation of their citizens. Italy (if it can get its sovereignty back) can impose sanctions on these countries or refuse to trade with them altogether.

Originally Posted by Eduardo983

The Catholic Church has also repeatedly criticized the measures, which civil rights groups say could deter illegal immigrants from seeking hospital treatment or enrolling their children in school for fear of being reported to police.

Well this is great. If I were the prime minister, I would round up all of the illegal migrants and send them to the Vatican for the Church to take care of. How about that!
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Originally Posted by Eduardo983

Italians have vigilante patrols because they have an homogenous population, and is easy for them to recognize an irregular migrant.

Italy has a homogenous culture, not a homogenous population. Southern Italians don't look anything like northern Italians. Southern Italians are mixed with moors, albanians, turks while central Italians are greek in ancient heritage while the north is mixed with the rest of Europe.

Originally Posted by Eduardo983

In U.S. people can`t do the same because in our mixed blood race society, people can`t visually recognize an irregular migrant (unless, the person looks like a homeless and begs for a job).

Yeah, go to New York City. Everyone there looks like a potential terrorist.

Originally Posted by Eduardo983

Well, it is amazing how a country like Italy, who used to be a massive net exporter of migrants during decades, has become a country with such controversial laws.

Italians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Times change, when a country elevates itself, it is natural to want to keep its wealth protected. There are some on this board that advocate worldwide welfare, I do not.