Why we're moving back to the US (from Paris) (mortgages, houses)

[internat]

Originally Posted by moxiecat

In my 5 years of experience teaching French expats at banks and French college students studying business in NY, there is a big gap with regard to their sense of personal ambition and ours. It is not in their culture to be driven and to succeed by making lots of money the way Americans are when they arrive in a large city like NY. We win hands down over them because we like to measure our success.

The concept of success is indeed alien in Europe. It's very American.

[moxiecat]

cunparis, perhaps you can help me find a solution to this dilemma.

One of my students is a woman from Paris who's married and has 2 young school-age children. She just got promoted to a management position in her IT department. Her previous role as a team leader was to supervise a small group of about 8 mostly French male programmers/support and they all got along great and communicated very well.

Now she has over 30 people to manage and motivate. They are a mix of French, American, Asian, etc. but still overwhelmingly male and non-French. SHe has no proper training in management but is brilliant at what she does in technology (that's why she got transferred to NY from the Paris office). However she is running into conflicts with her American manager and a number of her non-French subordinates because of what appears to be a lack of mutually agreeable management and communication skills.

In addition, it's very hard not to notice that she wears low cut tops or very open-buttoned shirts which make her image and credibility as a manager difficult to sell to Americans or other non-French staff members. In fact, I personally believe only the French can accept that image as credible but that for Americans it serves as a distraction especially in a banking environment. Is it possibly just a non-spoken French cultural understanding that showing a little seductive skin adds to the charm of soliciting action/help/results from your staff? I'm just waiting to see if it's possible for a French woman manager to arrive in fishnet stockings for a conference call and still maintain respect from her American colleagues, male and female.

Dress code aside, what do you think of this and what would you suggest I advise her to do? Fortunately, she does value my advice and many other things I have told her make sense to her now but shes' still in a general fog about many things regarding US workplace protocols. For example, she's unable to get the American staff to stay late til 7.30-8.00 PM the way the French work culture operates. For many of us, we prefer to arrive earlier in the morning so that we can leave at 4.30- 5.00 and go home then go to bed early to start it all over again. Again, I think it's part of the French culture to spend many long hours in school as well as at work but a major difference in efficiency is that Americans make more of the 24 hours in their day, although we are clearly more stressed.

Also, it's not enough to simply tell your staff they have to do something - there has to be definition and purpose combined with motivation and she just does not know how to create that in her predominantly American male work environment -the world of finance.

I agree that for all the supreme education the French receive, it serves them little good if they don't supplement it with a culture that praises perseverance.

[afonega1]

Originally Posted by cunparis

What is the definition of "works"?

By works if we mean the average French high school graduate is smarter than the average US graduate, then I agree. They are particularly more knowledgeable in world affairs, politics, philosophy and literature.

On the other hand, French students typically live with their parents until they're 25-27. They graduate from college and get their first job.

Thus when graduating the French are more intelligent but still a bit naïf in many other ways. The French system breaks them down and makes them fall into a mold. Many leave work and take a job they'll have for the rest of their lives. Many will get yearly raises that are below the rate of inflation, meaning they're actually making less and less each year. And the weird thing is, although they complain about, most are submissive to this system.

I'm trying to find an explanation for it, but I can say for sure that ambition is not in the French culture. Even worse, it's looked down upon. It's the total opposite of the US.

I think in the US kids learn as much out of school as they do in. I'm talking about teamwork that is learned from sports, band, etc. Teamwork in France isn't a natural concept, there is fierce competition at school that continues into the workplace. They have a saying "Chaqu'un pour soi et dieu pour tous" which means "Everyone for themselves and God for everyone". I can't tell you how many times I've heard this! So many that I start to believe it myself unfortunately.

US kids learn responsability, negotiating, teamwork, etc. when they work part time jobs. The importance of this is often underestimated.

In short, yes I agree the French have superior intellect. But I think there are drawbacks to the system as well and in the end it's not so advantageous.

Yesterday I gave a presentation at work about new technologies that most weren't aware of (I did a show of hands before I started). After I had finished I was answering questions as most of them were heading for the door. It was 6pm. Only 3 of them stayed afterwards to continue the discussion with me. One of those 3 made this remark and he thought it was very telling (he is French too).

In summary, I prefer the US school system even if the kids are a little less intelligent. I think the values the US kids learn are more important. For exapmle I graduated from an average public university certainly not the best. But I was very ambitious and I put in a lot of extra effort to improve my skills, get more salary when I changed jobs, etc. My French coworkers here make fun of me saying I have a "salaire de ministre" (not sure how to translate literally but a ministre is a government official who is very highly paid). Yet at the same time they are capable of what I did which was not much more than a lot of hard work, dedication, and ambition. They are capable of it but they prefer to complain about their salary instead.

So I'm convinced the US system is better (but by no means perfect) and we plan to move to the US for our kids.

Finally I'll wrap this up in saying that the French kids do nothing but school and homework. All the time. There is no time for sports & other activities. For me it's a very sad tradeoff. A childhood for more academic knowledge. Knowledge that for the most part will go unused and forgotten.

The knoweldge can be gained at any time in life, but their childhood is lost forever.

You should not say less intelligent.No child is brighter than the other in the world based on the sex,race,nationality etc..More so that the french spend money more wisely on education and make a good available to those regardless of status.In the U.S.,the school systems where children do well,are usually in a districts where the parents are wealthy enough to take time with their children,afford a tutor,or even hold the administrators of the school accountable for poor standards.If you are poor in America and you live in a poor area,generally the schools are among the worst.
Your comments on teamwork and a child having a childhood or very accurate though.You hit "the nail on the head"

[kinkytoes]

Originally Posted by cunparis

Great post WillysB and I agree with you, but..



1 - baguettes
2 - meeting people from all over the world
3 - hearing foreign languages (by foreign I mean not french or american) spoken every time I leave the house
4 - notre dame
5 - eiffel tower
6 - restaurants with food from countries all over the world (how many people have eaten at an Afghanistan restaurant?)
7 - interesting political discussions - I didn't know anything about politics when I came. I came to France a republican and I will leave a democrat
8 - being around people who are able to debate and challenge religion (most of the "young" French are not religious)
9 - the best tap water in the world
10 - being in a country that is not too puritan. seeing a woman's breast is actually not that bad.

I could probably think of more.

Where did you live in America? You can find all of those things and MORE in the US. Now I live in the "suburbs" in the US, I miss all of those things, but only because of where I currently live, not because they don’t exist. If you live in a larger coastal city, you will definitely have afternoons drinking wine and coffee in cafes talking about politics, art and literature.

You will definitely find fresh, delicious bread of all kinds and hear different languages. You just have to be willing to live in an “urban” area in the US.

The Helmand is a great Afghani restaurant in (gasp and swoon) Baltimore, and it's owned by a relative of the president of Afghanistan. There is good Afghan food to be had in the suburbs of DC as well. The US cities I have visited also have Ethiopian, Northern Italian, Nepali, Senegalese, Sudanese, Slavic, Korean, Thai, Chinese, Caribbean and Moroccan food. I think we have way too much hatred and violence in this country as a whole, but America also has LOADS of delicious foreign food.

In America (cue the patriotic music) we have a better job market, and just as much culture and history as any place in Europe. Have you heard of Jazz? Rock n Roll? Our evil-but-fantastic movie industry? Our wonderful museums and art galleries etc etc etc? The new world has even more culture than anyplace in Europe if you ask me. There is such a wonderful mélange of Europe, Navajo, Aztec, Africa et al here that I think any sane person has to agree that the New World rocks. I mean, we haven't totally destroyed it YET. . .

When you come back, maybe you can take some time to learn about and appreciate the Aztec/Mayan/Carib culture, history and food for example. You might gain a new appreciation for our homeland. America also has some of the world's BEST universities such as Hopkins, MIT and NYU. If you live near these places, you will DEFINITELY have intellectual conversations every day if you want.

I suspect you just were not exposed to that while you were living here. If you decide to live near a well-known university, or even to pursue further academic studies, I bet you will also have lots of great opportunities for your children to grow up in a cultured environment that's just as rich as the one you live in now.

Living in a nice, relatively-safe urbane area in the USA is just as great as living in an urban area overseas. Well, apart from the violent crime. As I said the difference is that in the US, we have a better employment rate than in Europe. Nevertheless, the cost of housing is ALMOST as high.

[Galloway]

Originally Posted by afonega1

You should not say less intelligent.No child is brighter than the other in the world based on the sex,race,nationality etc..More so that the french spend money more wisely on education and make a good available to those regardless of status.In the U.S.,the school systems where children do well,are usually in a districts where the parents are wealthy enough to take time with their children,afford a tutor,or even hold the administrators of the school accountable for poor standards.If you are poor in America and you live in a poor area,generally the schools are among the worst.
Your comments on teamwork and a child having a childhood or very accurate though.You hit "the nail on the head"

You are wrong, white children on average are smarter and get better grades than black children.

[moxiecat]

If you put a poor black child in the French school system, chances are very high that s/he will outperform academically over any poor white child in America.

Education in France is much more strict and rigorous (but lacks in extracurricular development). In addition, the consistent quality of education in France is available to anyone and anywhere despite one's socioeconomic status. This is in stark contrast to what you'd find in the US where the quality of education can be extremely spotty. It is largely based on your socioeconomic standing and whether you can afford to live in a town/city that has a top public school system. At least it's very much that way on the east coast.

[afonega1]

Originally Posted by Galloway

You are wrong, white children on average are smarter and get better grades than black children.

Its obvious you have not been around many black cultures.Its a matter of opportunity.African student in the u.s. generally out perform whites and black s.this fact.Don't go on your prejudices and limited view.I was raised by two educators My father has a Doctorate in Mathematics from one of the top schools in the US.My mother has 2masters.I graduated in the top of all my classes all the way through college.You are a disgrace to a wonderful open mided city like Toronto.Maybe you should read a book or two.

[afonega1]

Originally Posted by moxiecat

If you put a poor black child in the French school system, chances are very high that s/he will outperform academically over any poor white child in America.

Education in France is much more strict and rigorous (but lacks in extracurricular development). In addition, the consistent quality of education in France is available to anyone and anywhere despite one's socioeconomic status. This is in stark contrast to what you'd find in the US where the quality of education can be extremely spotty. It is largely based on your socioeconomic standing and whether you can afford to live in a town/city that has a top public school system. At least it's very much that way on the east coast.

You are very correct and poor white children also do poorly when not exposed to decent educational oportunity.Look at the Appalachian areas throughout the south.

[mach1979]

Originally Posted by internat

The concept of success is indeed alien in Europe. It's very American.

it's simply true. Just a different culture, not better, not worse, just different. Me as myself i dont think that success should be misured by the amount of money you achieve but by the quality of your life. I mean if you became very reach but you have to work everytime and you dont have time to dedicate to your family, your friends, yourself, maybe even your health will be bad, well to me that's not life. i dont know if its the same for you.

to me the worst situation is the japanese one. they are thruly hard workers but they seems to go round and round and round and in the end going nowhere.

[kinkytoes]

This has been my problem with the educational statistics in this country for a long time. Black children who are born outside of the US, and come to the US later in life, generally do very well in school. This is my personal experience. In England, they actually performed statistics based on national origin, and black African girls did better in all subjects than white boys. So there.

BBC NEWS | UK | Education | Black girls overtake white boys

This kind of reminds me that whites thought that black people would never be good at sports, which most people think is loco now. My only question is why so many black American kids do so badly in school? I think it’s due to the fact that while the poorest of them are well-off by international standards, they have grown up in a society that doesn't value them. That's a disadvantage that kids from black countries do not have.

I also know many black Americans who are very smart, accomplished and well-educated and white Americans who are very dumb, not to mention Asian gangstas and Indian people who can't develop software. But I guess people like stereotypes, because they require less critical thinking.

All normally developed children are bright no matter WHAT color their skin is. That's a fact. Period. They have an enormous capacity for learning. They love to learn and explore, they can even learn new languages, how to play instruments and master complex mathematical concepts more easily than adults IMO. I think all children just need encouragement, discipline and love.

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