Why we're moving back to the US (from Paris) (real estate market, apartments)

[cunparis]

I'm American who came to Paris 8 years ago. I planned on staying for a few years and going back. But I met my wife, started a family, etc.

The first few years Paris was great. It was like being on vacation all the time. Everything new and different. A total assault on the senses. Met people from countries I never knew existed.

Then after 3-4 years it got to be the routine. Suddenly I started noticing all the dog poop I was constantly stepping in. The polution stains on the monuments I loved. The constant noise polution from the traffic. The bums on the street. The total lack of air conditioning in all but the newest of offices.

After a few more years, the fact that we could never buy a normal sized home and that to get ahead in my company I'd only see my kids about 10 minutes a day.

So after thousands of hours of reflection and discussion with my wife we have decided that we're tired of Paris. Specifically:

- the crowdedness, people literally are on top of each other here. No parking, roads saturated, people crammed into tiny apartments, etc.

- stressful. everyone is stressed, no double due to the tough living conditions

- hard to make friends. they just aren't friendly here. I actually have an easier time than my wife because I'm American and "different". Even a novelty at work. but still much harder than in the US. With everyone living in apartments it's not like the kids can just play out in the yard (there is no yard) or the street (too dangerous)

- home prices. a house where we rent, which is not by any means a nice area, it's just close to Paris, goes for around 1.5 million dollars. I've decided I'm never going to be able to afford that. For me when someone can't afford to buy a home it's a big clue that the salary / cost of living ratio isn't favorable and one should move.

- french school system. It completely breaks the kids. No extracurricular activities, the kids are doing homework all the time. Evenings and weekends. Their childhood is completely stolen by the school system

And so we want to move to the US. It's been a weekly if not daily discussion for the past several years. We identified 3 cities: San Diego, Charlotte, and Raleigh. SD is too expensive so we are now debating between Charlotte & Raleigh. We're trying to learn what we can about them. We've visited both once.

I'm interested in discussing this with other Americans who have lived abroad and have moved back to the US. There is a lot that I don't like about the US, and a lot that I prefer about France. But overall I think a medium sized town in the US is the best fit for our family at this time.

[azoria]

Yes.

Living overseas can be very difficult indeed. Major metro areas where you are always the outsider, where housing is beyond crowded and beyond expensive, where the awe of ancient monuments and the legacy of history dim in the face of the trials of daily living and raising a family in the crush of unfriendly and unaffordable foreign capitols.

So come home. It's ok. It doesn't mean you have given up. America, for all it's warts and faults and shortcomings is really a pretty good place to raise kids. You can have a house with a yard, send them off to the school bus every morning with their lunch boxes, play softball in the clean neighborhood park on Saturdays.

Later when the kids are grown (they grow up so fast) you and your wife can decide where you should go. Back to Paris, stay in the US, wander elsewhere.

Raising kids is a stage of life, not a permanent condition.

Coming home is not giving up your own visions and dreams of adventure. America has it's advantages, this a very family friendly place. Once the kids are up and grown you can go out once again and follow your notions. Paris will wait for you.

[bluepacific]

Originally Posted by cunparis

I'm American who came to Paris 8 years ago. I planned on staying for a few years and going back. But I met my wife, started a family, etc.

The first few years Paris was great. It was like being on vacation all the time. Everything new and different. A total assault on the senses. Met people from countries I never knew existed.

Then after 3-4 years it got to be the routine. Suddenly I started noticing all the dog poop I was constantly stepping in. The polution stains on the monuments I loved. The constant noise polution from the traffic. The bums on the street. The total lack of air conditioning in all but the newest of offices.

I'll take your word for Paris, but I have also found that Amsterdam and Prague both have the huge dog crap problem everywhere in the residential areas, which is basically tall buildings. Other issues with noise, pollution, traffic, bums, etc are a problem in every city around the planet, but maybe the exception on some of those distasteful things would be Singapore. But then you'd have to accept living in a Gestopo-like enviornment.

Originally Posted by cunparis

After a few more years, the fact that we could never buy a normal sized home and that to get ahead in my company I'd only see my kids about 10 minutes a day.
So after thousands of hours of reflection and discussion with my wife we have decided that we're tired of Paris. Specifically:

- the crowdedness, people literally are on top of each other here. No parking, roads saturated, people crammed into tiny apartments, etc.

This is a major problem all around Europe. They don't really have a lot of land for much expansion and infrastructure. So the need to indoctrinate people into seeing that life has to be lived in a sort of human/cattle feedlot Apartment/condo housing projects. Only the wealthy and privilaged have the right to live in a more open setting. But I think the states in many areas are moving towards this concept. Still they do have more room, like Australia to offer a choice for no other reason than sheer size.

Originally Posted by cunparis

- stressful. everyone is stressed, no double due to the tough living conditions

Well, again I'm no fan of any type of city living. I have always lived in the country. I lived 24 years on the edge of wilderness in the Southwestern USA, so I like the quiet of it all. The major problem is in a more relaxed rural enviornment, there are not many jobs to be found, so you need good resources or be resourceful. Don't mind less pay, other types of work you've never considered, etc.

Originally Posted by cunparis

- hard to make friends. they just aren't friendly here. I actually have an easier time than my wife because I'm American and "different". Even a novelty at work. but still much harder than in the US. With everyone living in apartments it's not like the kids can just play out in the yard (there is no yard) or the street (too dangerous)

Again I think city enviornments do this to people in any country. Get out and away from those places and it's a world of difference with folks in rural places.

Originally Posted by cunparis

- home prices. a house where we rent, which is not by any means a nice area, it's just close to Paris, goes for around 1.5 million dollars. I've decided I'm never going to be able to afford that. For me when someone can't afford to buy a home it's a big clue that the salary / cost of living ratio isn't favorable and one should move.

This will continue to be a problem everywhere on the planet. Especially in your more hightaxed greedy welfare states will this be an issue. But to be fare, the housing market in the United States will be high, although with the real estate market in the tank you could find some good deals. But it can always rebound and head back up and the Realtors with big ambitions ofr windfall commissions will see that it does. Ever hear the term "Whatever the market will bear" ???? So any of a number of factors will cause housing to go up. In the United States, cheap housing means most likely the job market is not doing very well in those areas. But I definitely hate city living anywhere.

Originally Posted by cunparis

- french school system. It completely breaks the kids. No extracurricular activities, the kids are doing homework all the time. Evenings and weekends. Their childhood is completely stolen by the school system

Again, it's not just the French school system that is going down hill, it's every country. They can up the tax all they want, but it won't change the system for the better. Even if you don't like your kids going to school and you are dedicated parents with no problem of sacrificing your time home schooling your kids, many governments want to outlaw home schooling. They want the state to be in charge of what goes into your child's mind. Germany has laws to arrest parents who want to home school their own children. Other socialist states want similiar laws. No matter who you are or where you live, you need to control the proper values on your kids. Never depend on any government to do that for you, not even in the United States.

Originally Posted by cunparis

And so we want to move to the US. It's been a weekly if not daily discussion for the past several years. We identified 3 cities: San Diego, Charlotte, and Raleigh. SD is too expensive so we are now debating between Charlotte & Raleigh. We're trying to learn what we can about them. We've visited both once.

I'm interested in discussing this with other Americans who have lived abroad and have moved back to the US. There is a lot that I don't like about the US, and a lot that I prefer about France. But overall I think a medium sized town in the US is the best fit for our family at this time.

It's hard to give advice on this. The world is changing so rapidly. I'm afraid this one-world government through the United Nations will become a reality and with that more and more freedom going down the Toilette. Just do the research and what's best for your kids. You might try other choices than the three you mention. San Diego is nice, but as you say, it's too expensive. A group of political and business people have kept it that way for years and mostly I think it was to discourage people from moving there. However, Southern California is just too crowded. I'd opt for further inland.

[BlueWillowPlate]

I see truths in both Azoria's and Bluepacific's posts, though I am not *quite* as cynical as Bluepacific.

I've never spent years as an expat, only months. However, I recognize the urge to leave the USA as well as the desire to return. I have a couple expat friends, one of whom married a German, who have spent years away and have now come to the States, at least in part because thoughts of beginning a family are swirling in their heads.
My older son is in Rouen for at least another year, and he hopes it will be longer (I think he is in that 'honeymoon' stage you were in at first).
He's young and relatively unattached.

I certainly agree with Azoria that coming back is not to be considered some grim failure.
I remember you posting about this before, cunparis--it's okay to come back, we welcome you home!
It would probably wise on your part not to settle in too small of a city; you may perhaps miss at least some of the amenities you took for granted in Paris. (I say this as someone who moved from Denver to a town of 5,000 then to a town of 10,000.)
Things might be sometimes a bit of a struggle for your wife, but she might enjoy the adventure.
I assume your kids are bilingual; I sure do hope they will not lose their French.

[WillysB]

I'm not an expat, exactly. My parents did live in Lisbon for a few years but I was pretty young and we returned during my first grade year.

So, you'll get to pursue goals with your company and still have a life. Your kids will get to excel at shcool and still have time for home activities. If they're fluent in French then they're already ahead in some curricula. And all the extra activities they can enjoy.

You'll get to buy that home with a yard, have a grill for some great american hamburgers, go to some soccer games. You can get some average French wines at the local grocery. There's plenty of 'merkans that have problems with the U.S. But plenty of francais who have a problem with Paris. You can get La Monde on the Internet.

All that and probly some fun vacations to the south of France every few years. So, what's to lose?

[abrown17]

Originally Posted by cunparis

I'm American who came to Paris 8 years ago. I planned on staying for a few years and going back. But I met my wife, started a family, etc.

The first few years Paris was great. It was like being on vacation all the time. Everything new and different. A total assault on the senses. Met people from countries I never knew existed.

Then after 3-4 years it got to be the routine. Suddenly I started noticing all the dog poop I was constantly stepping in. The polution stains on the monuments I loved. The constant noise polution from the traffic. The bums on the street. The total lack of air conditioning in all but the newest of offices.

After a few more years, the fact that we could never buy a normal sized home and that to get ahead in my company I'd only see my kids about 10 minutes a day.

So after thousands of hours of reflection and discussion with my wife we have decided that we're tired of Paris. Specifically:

- the crowdedness, people literally are on top of each other here. No parking, roads saturated, people crammed into tiny apartments, etc.

- stressful. everyone is stressed, no double due to the tough living conditions

- hard to make friends. they just aren't friendly here. I actually have an easier time than my wife because I'm American and "different". Even a novelty at work. but still much harder than in the US. With everyone living in apartments it's not like the kids can just play out in the yard (there is no yard) or the street (too dangerous)

- home prices. a house where we rent, which is not by any means a nice area, it's just close to Paris, goes for around 1.5 million dollars. I've decided I'm never going to be able to afford that. For me when someone can't afford to buy a home it's a big clue that the salary / cost of living ratio isn't favorable and one should move.

- french school system. It completely breaks the kids. No extracurricular activities, the kids are doing homework all the time. Evenings and weekends. Their childhood is completely stolen by the school system

And so we want to move to the US. It's been a weekly if not daily discussion for the past several years. We identified 3 cities: San Diego, Charlotte, and Raleigh. SD is too expensive so we are now debating between Charlotte & Raleigh. We're trying to learn what we can about them. We've visited both once.

I'm interested in discussing this with other Americans who have lived abroad and have moved back to the US. There is a lot that I don't like about the US, and a lot that I prefer about France. But overall I think a medium sized town in the US is the best fit for our family at this time.

Do you think maybe the problem could just be city living? Paris reminds me of NYC in that it's not a place I would live in indefinately. Just too stressful, noisy, and crowded. Have you considered another city in France, especially the South of France? It is supposed to be more affordable, nicer for family, better weather, beaches, etc. Good luck with whatever decision you make.

[kanhawk]

Originally Posted by cunparis

Then after 3-4 years it got to be the routine. Suddenly I started noticing all the dog poop I was constantly stepping in. The polution stains on the monuments I loved. The constant noise polution from the traffic. The bums on the street. The total lack of air conditioning in all but the newest of offices.

I am interested in this homeless issue. The only European city I've been to is Dublin for a few days and I saw on pandhandler plus these gypsy like people they call "travelers" there. I read so much about European criticism of the American homeless problem. Is there much of a problem at all of homeless in European cities? There was a recent nation wide survey done on homeless done in the USA. The actual number of chronic homeless in US cities was less than expected, something less than 300,000 if I recall. How bad is it in Europe and how do they handle this problem?

[cunparis]

Great post WillysB and I agree with you, but..

Originally Posted by WillysB

So, what's to lose?

1 - baguettes
2 - meeting people from all over the world
3 - hearing foreign languages (by foreign I mean not french or american) spoken every time I leave the house
4 - notre dame
5 - eiffel tower
6 - restaurants with food from countries all over the world (how many people have eaten at an Afghanistan restaurant?)
7 - interesting political discussions - I didn't know anything about politics when I came. I came to France a republican and I will leave a democrat
8 - being around people who are able to debate and challenge religion (most of the "young" French are not religious)
9 - the best tap water in the world
10 - being in a country that is not too puritan. seeing a woman's breast is actually not that bad.

I could probably think of more.

[cunparis]

Originally Posted by abrown17

Do you think maybe the problem could just be city living? Paris reminds me of NYC in that it's not a place I would live in indefinately. Just too stressful, noisy, and crowded. Have you considered another city in France, especially the South of France? It is supposed to be more affordable, nicer for family, better weather, beaches, etc. Good luck with whatever decision you make.

I have. The problem is the people in the south aren't so accepting of others moving in. Many are often snobs. But the worst is that there aren't many jobs in the south. Specifically for me, I work in IT and all the major projects and decisions are in Paris. This is unfortunate. In the US everything is spread out across the country. Sure there are some cities known for banking, etc. but in general just about any profession exists in all states. In Paris everything is centralized. It is the dream of many of my coworkers, most of whom came from outside of Paris to get a job, to leave and return to where they came from.

But really, I figure if we're going to give up our apartment, friends, family, etc. and move, we might as well go on to a new adventure. When I left Phoenix, AZ the same logic took me to Paris.

[cunparis]

Originally Posted by kanhawk

I am interested in this homeless issue. The only European city I've been to is Dublin for a few days and I saw on pandhandler plus these gypsy like people they call "travelers" there. I read so much about European criticism of the American homeless problem. Is there much of a problem at all of homeless in European cities? There was a recent nation wide survey done on homeless done in the USA. The actual number of chronic homeless in US cities was less than expected, something less than 300,000 if I recall. How bad is it in Europe and how do they handle this problem?

I have no stats or figures to back it up but there are a ton of homeless in France. One thing that makes it more obvious is that most people rely on public transportation and so we're walking to/from the trains and you really can't avoid them.

Most are drunk and/or crazy. I see them all the time begging for money at stoplights while they have a can of beer hidden nearby. In the winter they sleep in the subway and/or on the trains.

It's quite depressing. A reminder of how fortunate most of us are.