Germany (2009, hotels, high school)

[cabolissa]

Originally Posted by cabolissa

We had conversations with people who flat-out said that they were tired of the world's poor coming to Germany to look for work (Irish, African and Turkish). They complained about Mosques popping up all over, and didn't like signage in languages other than German.

By the way, I was a studying German Philosophy and we discussed these topics with our GERMAN professors often, and so it's not in my head. I was living in Bonn, which is the Rheinland, so these weren't East German neo-nazis (the skinhead movement was not racist in origin, by the way, just a faction of nutjobs made it that way). I'm not saying that Germans are unkind to eachother, I'm saying they're unkind to immigrants! Many times the immigrants are of the same race (Caucasian).

But, there is a definite German Nationalism that most of us don't normally see here in the USA. It was rather disturbing, actually. While speaking with a group of my German peers (college students of the Uni of Bonn), they asked me what I thought needed to change in US politics - an interesting question for sure, as it was 1992 and we were about to elect President Clinton. I gave my assessment and they commented. A civil conversation. Until I asked them the same question about German politics. It was like I stabbed them or something. How DARE I suggest there was anything wrong with their system?!! By the way, the younger generation is dealing with so much guilt over their country's darker history, that they're hypersensitive to criticism. And don't have practice with self-criticism. We in the US commonly discuss our grievances and therefore call forth change. In my experience, the not talking about it is creating a vaccuum for the same hate to grow again. It was just my experience. Maybe it was the town. Like I said, I enjoyed Heidelberg MUCH more than Bonn. Again, it's because of the high level of diversity though. Bonn, although it has a University and was the country's capitol when I was there, is for the most part a very German town.

I can appreciate what you're saying about being "cold". My family is Finnish and they say the same about us as well.

Let me say that Germany did not strike me as particularly more unfriendly than other European country (France, Austria, Belgium). Denmark and Holland were the most welcoming though. I much prefer Scandinavia.

Back to the OP, I think it's going to be VERY difficult for a North American to compete with ANY European or Scandinavian professionals as their education and multilingualism is superior to what most of us can offer. I often joke that I'm not educated enough to be a waitress in Helsinki!

Just wanted to add that the US is equally harsh on our immigrants as well, so I'm not simply bashing Germany... I personally loved my experience of living 5 years in Mexico. I'm hardpressed to find a more loving and welcoming culture.

[bluebeard]

No, the US is most definitely not as hard on immigrants. I'm actually not saying they shouldn't be, there may be good reason for it. Germany is already quite densely populated. Resources are finite.
Even many quite liberal Germans will admit that they are more restrictive towards immigration. Talk to an immigrant from a developing country and you will find it is much tougher to immigrate to Germany (unless you have money). It wasn't long ago that their citizenship policy was largely based on blood, rather than birth. The US is an immigrant country, given that its current inhabitants largely wiped out the original native population.
About warmth, thats largely opinion. Just cultural differences as far as I'm concerned.

[cabolissa]

Originally Posted by bluebeard

No, the US is most definitely not as hard on immigrants. I'm actually not saying they shouldn't be, there may be good reason for it. Germany is already quite densely populated. Resources are finite.
Even many quite liberal Germans will admit that they are more restrictive towards immigration. Talk to an immigrant from a developing country and you will find it is much tougher to immigrate to Germany (unless you have money). It wasn't long ago that their citizenship policy was largely based on blood, rather than birth. The US is an immigrant country, given that its current inhabitants largely wiped out the original native population.
About warmth, thats largely opinion. Just cultural differences as far as I'm concerned.

After having gone through the immigration process first hand (with my husband), it is not as easy as you think - hence the number of illegals here. Most illegals would never qualify to come here legally. My husband and I were married for 3 years before we came to live in the states, and there were many hoops to jump through, and fees to pay before we arrived. The process took 7 months from beginning to end only because I knew of a legal loophole to expedite the process. Had we done it the way they wanted us to, it would have taken more than 2 years.

And what I was referring to was how the immigrants (legal or otherwise) are perceived and treated by the host country, not the process so much.

[bluebeard]

Yes, I've gone through it too. I know many people who have gone through both.
You don't see the illegals in most of Europe because they largely don't accept them. They get deported.

[cabolissa]

Originally Posted by bluebeard

Yes, I've gone through it too. I know many people who have gone through both.
You don't see the illegals in most of Europe because they largely don't accept them. They get deported.

And their businesses probably don't employ them like ours do - at least here in CA.

[Damage Control Freak]

Originally Posted by cabolissa

But, there is a definite German Nationalism that most of us don't normally see here in the USA. It was rather disturbing, actually. While speaking with a group of my German peers (college students of the Uni of Bonn), they asked me what I thought needed to change in US politics - an interesting question for sure, as it was 1992 and we were about to elect President Clinton. I gave my assessment and they commented. A civil conversation. Until I asked them the same question about German politics. It was like I stabbed them or something. How DARE I suggest there was anything wrong with their system?!! By the way, the younger generation is dealing with so much guilt over their country's darker history, that they're hypersensitive to criticism. And don't have practice with self-criticism. We in the US commonly discuss our grievances and therefore call forth change.

I respect that this is the impression that you got, however as a German living in the US I could easily thay the exact same thing the other way round. some random republican voting guy about American war crimes and see how much thoughtful self criticism you get. As for nationalism, until very recently singing the natinal anthem or displaying the German flag was considered awkward.

Originally Posted by bluebeard

Even many quite liberal Germans will admit that they are more restrictive towards immigration. Talk to an immigrant from a developing country and you will find it is much tougher to immigrate to Germany (unless you have money). It wasn't long ago that their citizenship policy was largely based on blood, rather than birth. The US is an immigrant country, given that its current inhabitants largely wiped out the original native population.

Germany has never been an immigration country, so the whole attitude towards the topic is VERY different from the US. In fact, citizenship is STILL mainly based on blood and NOT on birth.
Instead of having an immigration policy based on desired skills etc. there has been pure chaos for decades. Immigrants were largely thought of as "guests" that would leave again some day. Unsurprisingly, most didn't. Since no effort was made to ever integrate them into society (there wasn't even a defined way to get a permanent residency or citizenship until recently), social problems piled up etc.
However, generalizations of Germans being unfriendly towards aliens or harder to connect with etc. are just as wrong as most other generalizations.

[CBB]

May I throw in my German perspective?

When I read this message board (Politics - Immigration) I come to the conclusion that immigrants are treated pretty much the same in Germany and in the U.S. If they come legally - have a work permit and all their paper work done, contribute to the country's economy, commit no crimes etc. - they are very welcome. LEGAL immigration isn't the problem.

Your problem with illegal immigrants from Mexico is our problem with illegals or asylum seekers from Palestine, Libanon, Turkey, Iran, Iraq, the former Soviet countries, the Balkan, and all over Africa, only to mention a few. Some come here, go into hiding and work, but many try to immigrate into our welfare system. Coming from a country in war, they will get an interim permission to stay, they will get an apartment and money to live, month after month after month. They get free medical treatment and public transportation. They will give birth to many children (children's allowence is 164€ for the first and second, 170€ for the third and 195€ for every further child), who will, like their parents, never learn proper German, fail in school, get no job, live on social welfare or deal with drugs. War in their home country goes on, meanwhile they are too long in Germany to be evicted. Many of them live on social welfare in our country since generations.

I don't say that ALL illegal immigrants or asylum seekers are like this, but a lot are (ask people in Berlin, they have tons of them). Living on social welfare in Germany is a lot easier than living in their own countries. They know all their "rights" but none of their civic duties. Pretending this problem doesn't exist is simply b/s.
That's what the locals are upset about.

It's true that German immigration politics fails since decades. In the 1950s they hired foreign workers and thought they would leave when told so. Instead, they brought their families. They were not the well educated of their countries, but the low skilled and desperate. That's what our immigration problem is based upon. And only since some years we try to encourage the mothers to learn German and have additional German classes for the little Iraqis or Turks. A looooong list of political failures. And a costly one, because generations grew up here without contributing, only taking.

Btw, my husband is an immigrant too. Okay, he's a Dane and speaks German like everybody else. He came here long before immigration within the EU was as smooth as it is now, always worked, paid and still pays a lot of income tax. Nobody ever told him "to go back home".

[lilred0005]

This is a facinating topic. It goes to show that every country has problems with immigrants ect. but in many European countries, the stakes are higher because of the cost of social programs that we don't have in the U.S.. I can see why that would grate upon the German taxpayer. My parents lived in Germany for 3 yrs. and it was culture shock for my mother. My father already spoke some German being his grandparents only spoke German. He was fluent in a month but she never learned any German. She said there are many more laws in Germany and outsiders were NOT welcomed. She lived in a Condo. building with all Germans and 1 Polish family. The tennants did not like my parents for being American and really hated the Polish "geistworkers"(sp). I don't mean to offend, this was just her experience. She also was very close to an Asian family and they were really stared at a lot in the streets. We here in America take for granted that the U.S. is a melting pot mixed heritage nation. This is not so in more homogenous countries. The Germans are nationalistic but I don't think that is a bad thing. They also have fabulous social programs and really take care of their citizens and elderly. The U.S. could learn a lot from a country like Germany. Once again these are only opinions. Take care everyone and good luck to the OP.

[bluebeard]

Germany has never been an immigration country, so the whole attitude towards the topic is VERY different from the US. In fact, citizenship is STILL mainly based on blood and NOT on birth.
Instead of having an immigration policy based on desired skills etc. there has been pure chaos for decades. Immigrants were largely thought of as "guests" that would leave again some day. Unsurprisingly, most didn't. Since no effort was made to ever integrate them into society (there wasn't even a defined way to get a permanent residency or citizenship until recently), social problems piled up etc.
However, generalizations of Germans being unfriendly towards aliens or harder to connect with etc. are just as wrong as most other generalizations.

Exactly. That was my point. I'm saying Germany is more difficult to immigrate to. That's all.

[bluebeard]

Originally Posted by CBB

It's true that German immigration politics fails since decades. In the 1950s they hired foreign workers and thought they would leave when told so. Instead, they brought their families. They were not the well educated of their countries, but the low skilled and desperate. That's what our immigration problem is based upon. And only since some years we try to encourage the mothers to learn German and have additional German classes for the little Iraqis or Turks. A looooong list of political failures. And a costly one, because generations grew up here without contributing, only taking.

Btw, my husband is an immigrant too. Okay, he's a Dane and speaks German like everybody else. He came here long before immigration within the EU was as smooth as it is now, always worked, paid and still pays a lot of income tax. Nobody ever told him "to go back home".

1. You husband is a Dane. How is that comparable? Of course immigrating from one European country to another is going to be much easier. Even from Eastern Europe to Central or Western Europe.

2. It is my opinion that to expect someone to spend years of their lives rebuilding their country and not have a life is not humane. Either use your own labor (which was unavailable at the time) or accept new immigrants into your society. The Turkish and other immigratns who rebuilt Germany were treated unfairly. However, currently I don't believe there is a shortage of labor, and if there isn't than stringent immigration policies are a natural and acceptable consequence.