Questions about Amsterdam and Netherlands (home, employment, neighborhoods)

[FlyingDutch]

I've been to the city of New York twice myself.
I read a lot about it before i went to there. One of the things said was that New Yorkers are not so friendly for example, and that they are moody, and often i read that that New Yorkers would be like many Western Europeans. Well, i got there myself, outside the authorities, wich made me feel extremely uncomfortable, this was before 9-11, i cannot say that americans are a very friendly people from what i experienced and i only met New Yorkers. New yorkers, i noticed that, imediatly noticed that me and my family where foreigners. They probably notice our clothes etc.
Usually they thought we where Germans, most foreigners think Dutch are Germans when they see them and juding our strange language, it appears like somekind of dutch. ör is it Swedish"some say. They don't know i udnerstand everything they say so i heard them talking about it many times..haha.

I talked to black people Puerto Ricans, Whites, Chinese and all of them, not one except was unfriendly!! That's quite a thing!! So all i read about New Yorkers in advance was absolutely not true, according to my experience. I had several times that people saw me searching and looking around and just passed by, step and started to help us ( not they didn't steal anything of me....haha)
A black man, old person who was not even that fit anymore, walked with me to really direct me to get on the Brooklyn Bridge, amazing! I had the same several times!
One time i was in Lower Manhattan, the WTC area and me and my family was looking up to the art deco architecture of one nice skyscraper and one businessman passed by and told us that it was not the Empire State Building, but it does look a lot like it. That's nice!!a lot of people tell you they have family in Holland. most peopel say Holland, not the Netherlands, cause "Holland" is the populair name for my country abroad. Holand was basicly one state, today a province, wich was powerfull and a colinial power competing with the British empire etc. So that's why people say Holland. It's like saying "England" to the United Kingdom for example.
Usually when i told i was Dutch from Holland, people's response was very nice. I guess in New York that's due to the history of that city, New York started as New Amsterdam and Wallstreet and Nassau street relate to the Dutch settlements, eve one church there. Also there is intensive business and massive dutch investments in the United States, particular in Manhattan. We are constantly in the top 5, even number 2 or 3 sometimes of biggest investors in the US, so relationship is close econoically, historically and also because americans and Dutch have certain things in common. just as the United States, the Netherlands is been a safe haven for people with different religious streamings and ideologies for centuries. French protestants moved to here for a big part or any group wich wasn't tolerated in the rest of Europe. That's why society, despite my country is small, is extremely segregated.
We still have Catholic and Protestant broadcasters, schools and other institutes. It all lives together in harmony. The new phenomenon is Islamic schools etc. The contitution of the Netherlands never forsaw a totally different culture. So for some people it is just difficult to accept, other don't care. some are affraid that moslem schools will alienate moslems even more form Dutch. but on the other side the constitution tells we can all built out own schools and express religions in freedom.
There are also many Hindu's the last years. most live in the Hague and Rotterdam. They also start to set up temples and their specific institutions.

[shreypete]

Hey there guys, do you happen to know what sort of a life do doctors have in the Netherlands? Are they always working continuously? Are they financially stable?

How is it for international medical graduates who want to consider moving to the Netherlands for a short period of time?

[FlyingDutch]

Originally Posted by shreypete

Hey there guys, do you happen to know what sort of a life do doctors have in the Netherlands? Are they always working continuously? Are they financially stable?

How is it for international medical graduates who want to consider moving to the Netherlands for a short period of time?

They have a nice income shreypete. but they are very busy!! A lot of doctors have burn outs and most of them are exhausted or tired. That was just concluded in the latest research last week here nationally!

The problem with medical graduates is that the Dutch educational system is a little different, so i'm not sure if it's still the case but untill very recently somebody with certain degrees like you have in Anglo Saxon countries where frowned upon, simply because nobody here knows their value and usually reject it then. I heard stories of immigrant who came here with very high educational levels and had to start over from scratch to do the education according to the dutch way.

There are many foreign doctors i know, many Asians in particular
Politicians acknowledged a while ago that this is dangerous for the economy, so they are busy to try to make it easier. Easier also to convert the Anglo saxon degrees into dutch one.

So the main problem is basicly that many Dutch have troubles to value the anglo saxon degrees. a wife of my cousin, she's an indian from S-Africa had this problem. ( they have the British system of education basicly)
She got it done and it's accepted, but after a lot of bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is what you have to expect here anyway, although i heard that some countries are even worse, like France...but i canot speak about that from my own experience.

The country is opening up more to well educated people from abroad and to foreing students too, very necessary!!

[wheregirl]

Thank you, FlyingDutch, that has been very helpful.

The troubling sign is what has happened to the Chinese. That is certainly targeting other ethnic groups. Of course they can't do it to everybody at the same time, but they start gradually, first with the Muslims, then the Chinese, after some time have passed maybe the Indians... If they started on all the ethnic groups all at once the Dutch people would not have put up with it. But you can see the change of the season by watching the first signs.

What are some other such race and ethnic related incidents that you know of in the Netherlands and other parts of Europe? Please share some. Here in America we do not know enough of what is going on in Europe.

Europe is changing. I don't know of any country that is not starting on the road to discriminate against minority ethnic groups. Other countries in Europe are most likely a lot worse than the Netherlands.

Do the Chinese business people cause a lot of jealousy in other cities in the Netherlands as well? What are reactions of other Chinese that are not shop keepers, are they afraid of their safety now?

How differently are the Chinese and the Indonesians treated? They look similar but have different cultures and different histories with the Dutch. Have there been incidents targeting the Indonesians?


Thanks a lot, you have been very helpful!

[shreypete]

I'm actually an American indian studying in Europe so I don't think getting my degree recognized would be much of a problem.

The only problem is the dutch language?

I'm just having a hard time if I should choose a residency in the Netherlands or Belgium or Norway or Switzerland or just go back home (to the US)....I guess I have quite some time to decide. But thank you for your reply.

[FlyingDutch]

The troubling sign is what has happened to the Chinese.

alright wheregirl

But this are just mainly Dutch Antillian robbers.
It's not race related, but just because they found out that chiense always walked with large amounts of cash in the street and had a lot of cash in their shops.

I will reply the rest later wheregirl!!

[FlyingDutch]

What are some other such race and ethnic related incidents that you know of in the Netherlands and other parts of Europe? Please share some. Here in America we do not know enough of what is going on in Europe.

Not any, we have lot less race specific issues then in the US for example, the whole black & white thing is almost non existant except the few racists you have in all populations. If i go to a totally different country with other people there are guaranteed a few percentage of racists towards me. You always have it.

Real racism is not occuring a lot in general. Usually most people following a radical party is due to socio-economic problems, so one or the other group that immigrated is then seen as a treath to picking their jobs.

So let's say just 1 million people from a certain nation arrived, we just had a major flood of Eastern Europeans, they flood the labormarkjet. The amount of Poles and Romanians was just as large a year ago as the growth of the labourmarket. Luckily, the dutch economy was still going pretty well...but it that stops, you will see people starting to complain if these groups are still flooding in for example. I already hear it.Besides that we seem to receive many different people then the average population. Many immigrants from Poland are drunk and causing noise and troubles in urban area's...not just in my country, but in Italy. In Italy teh talk of the day is not longer the local maffia, but romanian and Beulgarian and albanese maffia. This is often the problem with immigrants and asyliumseekers, that a particular people enter your country, not just average people like you and me, but traders in drugs or traders in women, or whatever. Very lucrative.
For example, most people we have as asilymseekers from Afghanistan are warcriminals. Its known. The problem is they where able to pay tens of thousands of dollars to be shipped to europe...normal Afghans don't have that amount of money in 30 years of saving! so you either have elites or criminals.And this while you basicly want to save people who really need it, but they are still stuck in afghanistan, you see? those poor people. Same with Saomalia.Wich somalians can aford to buy a ticket to he Netherlands etc?most not, so you either get the elites or criminals.

Theproblem with this is that the local european population get an unbalanced view of the people from sucha particular party...and that's not good, cause a certain percentage of europeans might become disgusted, cause all these immigrants are criminals as the story goes, and might lead to racism eventually. It's rather anger towards certain actions, not pure racism. Cause most Dutch or Europeans care less what color you are aslong you behave normally and want to be part of society.
Most dutch want you to join them. I think people are pretty much the same in general Globally with this. Most people are not racists. Most irratation are consequences of misunderstandings, cultural differences or problems with integration. Problems of integration are usually caused by goverments not planning well ahead and a lack of facilities is then turning a paradise for many immigrants who had a dream about the country they emigrated to, into a nightmare, and if immigrants are having no hope, because yough unemployment like in French suburbs is like 40%,and feel alienated or rejected, then a certain percentage might become criminal.
Like insome of these very bad French neighbourhoods, if you are N-African and you would seek a job outside your hood, then you won't get it, cause the employers is shocked to hear if you from sucha ghetto and is affraid to hire you. So then these tough get totally desillusioned. That's what you saw with the French riots and burning of cars, wich is ongoing ever day by the way!! And that is frustration, anger, youghts get derailed, wich then even confirms what authentic French think about immigrants for example. It becomes a horrible cycle.

I think Germany is muhc better then France. There are some NeoNazi's, not that the group is so enormous, they are small, only very vocal. I guess that Belgium and Austria are the worst in relation to racism and radical political parties.Germany is quite alright, there are problems, but the biggest immigrant group, turks, just like in the Netherlands is doing better every year. Germans and dutch are buying Turkish bread and meat, so there is more contact in general, some marry to eachother, it's changing. But every new flood of imigrant, then from this or that country seems to go through this phase, cause govemrent keeps making the same mistakes and is all allowing them in massive amounts even if facilities are lacking, wich only leads to disappointedment for everybody ofcourse!! One time the Netherlands in the 1990s had 5 times more immigrants in comparisson tot he population then canada and australia combined, that was insanity and everybody complained, cause many dutch said, hey goverment, we cannot get a job, but they all come in in larger numbers then the growth of the labourmarket a year, you see?
It's going much better now, the dutch economy did very well and things are chaning for the worst because of thsi extraordianiry global crisis. But it takes a while yet to really kick in, we have very low unemployment yet, and purchasingpower kept growing yet, so if people start to feel the pain, they likely start to complain again, not yet.

Europe is changing. I don't know of any country that is not starting on the road to discriminate against minority ethnic groups. Other countries in Europe are most likely a lot worse than the Netherlands.

I think Belgium and Austria are the worst. France has many problem, cause they have a lot of social problems in their cities and as the only country in europe a highr percentage immigrants then the Netherlands. They are also pretty much socialistic in France and people expect goverment to take action always, it also kills any creativity or immigrants cannot set up business there, even if they can, cause bureaucracy makes it impossible.I heard of many troubles in Italy. Italy is pretty nationalistic and proud, and they dind't have the massive amount of immigrants yet, cause Italy is not doing so well economicall throughout the decades compared to Northern Europe.But the last years they came to Italy too and it seems that Italians where overwhelmed and also not used to many new cultures and problems that came with it, i hear on regular bases about Italy here and troubles with immigrants. Especially from Eastern Europe.
I heard troubles in Sweden and Denmark, even in Norway.
These nations also received immigrants much later then most others, except for Sweden. Sweden has Malmo as third city and that is one of the most dangerous cities of Europe today. There is a massive Arab population and papers write that the city is taken over by Arabs and that it's very unsafe. I think they have troubles with integration and adjustment, also because there cametoo many at once, the system couldn't handle it andsweden is Socialistic, so you have collective systems of welfare etc, so if too many come in, who never paid contribution, then the system collapses and people start to complain. Sweden did pretty bad economically the last decades, they where far ahead of most, and they are becoming more average, their buying power is even lower as most European countries due to massive goverment and taxes.
Then Norway is a totally different story, high in the top of wealthiest countries, behind Luxembourg,t he little tiny state.There it's stabe, because they have it so incredibly good.But even there i heard of some incidents with immigrants, usually moslems. I guess the locals in Norway also get a new experience and lots of new phenomenon occur.
It'snot just immigrants that have to get adjusted, but if many immigrants arrive, the locals also have to adjust ina certain way how to deal with the immigrants, that's just how it goes in countries wich are not built by immigrants from scratch like the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand,right? In these countries everybody started as immigrant basicly.

Do the Chinese business people cause a lot of jealousy in other cities in the Netherlands as well?

Nobody is jealous on them as far as i know, i only hear positive stories about Chinese, Indians and Asians in general. They adjust well, they are easy to get along well, they don't bother you..i just tell what i hear and heard in general.
They do well, most are able to get nice jobs,they have no trouble,s they cause no tensions. Chinese or indians suffer silently. Moroccans are more vocal, so they rather complain if they are not satisfied and this leads to irritation to dutch. Certainly because immigrants and asyliumseekrs where given houses, pocketmoney, clothes for free, while dutch where onwaitinglists to get a house! so positive discrimination, a policy of our goverment fora while, meant to boost immigrants, lead to inequality and Dutch became angry that other just came in and received everything fro free wich they worked so hard for. You see how that goes? Especially in bluecollar neighbourhoods where people are socially more sensitive usually.
It's not that they hate these immigrants, but just that they think that they are now second ranke citizens, while being original citizens. True or not, that's how they feel it.

What are reactions of other Chinese that are not shop keepers, are they afraid of their safety now?Not jealous as far as i know, most people think chinese, Indians and Asians in general are ok, cause they adjust easily, just

There is a smallpolice department in that area, and they are patrolling constantly. I think the chinese also changed their habits of walking with large amounts of cash to the bank or hold them in large amounts in their shops. I dind't hear anything anymore about that problem the last 2 years.

Not anymore, police is patrolling in Rotterdam, actually the murderrate and crime is lower then in amsterdam again, there is a small police .
also good is that in a neighbourhood,the same area where 130 nationalities areliving, they have a kind of evening clock.....volunairily arranged by citizens.
That is that if one of their kids is not back after a certain time, like 10 PM, then all neighbours are going to look for these kids, so avoid ending them in crime. There are Moroccan fathers that partol to eventually talk with criminal Moroccan youths. Why Moroccan fathers? Cause alienated Moroccan yought attack the police or said they are racists if they are white and are approached by police. so now cops go in mixed couples, a black man, white, turk or morocan andso they go to these groups. works better, plus these Moroccan Fathers. cause the fathers is the only persons these youths listen to. It's a succes, in Amsterdam too!

You don't really hear anything about the Chinese, cause they are very modest and quiet, they don't show their problems and usually suffer in silence,but it seems to go alright. Locals Dutch and others also keepan eye on it that they are doing alright, not getting robbed etc.
Dutch in rotterdam said they are too modest and had to rise up against these criminal groups that robbed them.

How differently are the Chinese and the Indonesians treated? They look similar but have different cultures and different histories with the Dutch. Have there been incidents targeting the Indonesians?

Pretty simular, East Asians just do right in society, go their own way, they do theirbusiness, they don't cause any problems,like violence or drunkeness, or vandalism. So everybody likes them.
Indonesian came in the 1950's, 150,000 at once. Most of them where christians and wanted to leave Indonesia, back then Dutch East Indies..
In 1949 it became independend and renamed indonesia.
They where our crown colony for 400 years. The Netherlands was the smallest country that had an aircraft carrier, wich was located there to protect Indonesia. During WWII the Japanese occupied it and the dutch where not able to defend it, we where totally impoverished and a nuetral country wich didn't invest in it's army. After WWII the Indonesians where angry with the netherland,s cause we, the motherland was not able to protect them against the Japanese. so they said they wantedto be independend. and then the dutch did a very stupid thing, they dind;t tolerate that independend, wich i think is morally wrong and never works either. Then we had a war for 2 years, the Netherlands was exhausted and occupied by the Nazi's before, then this war after it. Indonesia became independend, many christians in Indonesia emigrated to the Netherlands. also people from the Moluccans. The Indonesians did very well, a very big part of that population is totally mixed with dutch andthere are manyhalfbloods..some are having Indonesian blood, but you barely seeit. Many Dutch thought indonesians are pretty, sthey where the first masive excotic people here, so many Dutch felt attracted to them. The tiny area within Indonesia are the Moluccans:

Maluku Islands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't know why, but they had a different culture then the rest of Indonesia and where in international news for hijacking trains in the 1970's
some radical independend group who thought the dutch goverment had to force Indonesia for their independend and this vocal group where really criminal. But that time is past and the Moluccans i know are totally integrated aswell now, it just took a while.

There have been troubles between immigrants themselves. Like Kurds and Turks, the turks have this nationalistic Grey wolves group, wich fights for Greater turkey, the Ottoman empire and want this to include what Kurds see as their sovereign nation, Kurdistan. There have been incidents between different ex Yugoslavian tribes who came here as asyliumseekers and then started to fight eachother. You don't want that!! But outside that it's going pretty well. Recently some angry moslems attacked some Jewish institutes and stores, because of the war in Gaza.

These are extremities, Dutch society is pretty quiet, it's like a village compared to the US here.Sometimes Dutch are a little village like of mentality i think. some of the news or issues spoken about on tv might be laughable to Americans, would be issues or news that you read in some local newspaper of some middlesized town! hahaha

Thanks a lot, you have been very helpful!

I'm glad it was helpfull to you!!

[FlyingDutch]

I'm actually an American indian studying in Europe so I don't think getting my degree recognized would be much of a problem.

Alright!I guess if you press for it and tell it's internationally recognizes, for the local dumbo's here that don't understand that, you will get it done. It's just that some people here don't seem to know, wich is a little strange, but because of our different educational system.

The only problem is the dutch language?

Only if you are staying for a long period, then it would be very conveneint to learn dutch, also for your social contact. Cause if you wouldn't be able to speak Dutch or not try it after many years, people might get irritated with you. Some people are very sensitive and think you might not like dutch and that you are only there for making money, but not learning he language cause you don't care about dutch people. Not all, but socially it just works muhc better if you learn it.

Imagine emigrating to Japan, not speaking Japanese, you really come nowhere.You always stay that foreigner.

If you talk dutch people won't notice you are foreigner anymore, things get muhc better. but if you just stay for 1 or 2 years, as expart, then people understand and accept it if you don't earn or talk english.

My country has the most HQ's of American and Asian companies in europe. an advantage for Anglo Saxon people, cause it's easier to find a job.
I know many people who have a job like that, like the wife of my cousin, the South-African Indian woman. she's doing fine! She speaks "Afrikaans" a bit, a "Sutch dialect in South-Africa, so for her it was easier to learn Dutch.
But the place where she's working she speak english and there are some Dutch collegues too. an American company.

Indians are the fastest growing population her right now. We also have people of indian roots, but they are from suriname in South-america, Dutch overseas colony untill 1974.
Most of that country is blacks and also people from indonesia, Chinese, some Japanese and native indians. But the indians came to there and their population grew faster, 45% of the surinaish are indians.
And more people of suriname live in the Netherlands then in suriname today, including many people with Indian roots. They are called "Hindoestanen" here. So basicly named to the Hindu religion.
They are a little different of culture, cause they have been living apartly from india, but that might be interresting to you for example!

I'm just having a hard time if I should choose a residency in the Netherlands or Belgium or Norway or Switzerland or just go back home (to the US)....I guess I have quite some time to decide. But thank you for your reply.

It's difficult Switserland is very stable untill now, but they are like an island, on their own. My father lived in Switserland for 2 years, they are very on their own and isolated, the world outside is alien to them pretty much what i understood. Maybe that the younger generations are different today...i don't know.It's a wonderfull country.

Norway is extremely wealthy , just as Switserland very beautifull with nature. I like it!! But i don't know how it is to really live their for somebody like you to be honest. I think you would be impressed how super new and well maintained it all is ther,e such incredibly wealthy country!! My country is probably more populair, for people who like nightlife, like in Amsterdam etc. The westen part of the Netherlands is one massive urban spraw of 7.5 million people, with insane traffic, most busy traffic of nay nation. The export is 40% of the US in value and that is just a little too much for my small country of 16 million peoplewich is 230 times smaller then your country! So expect a very busy crowded country. It depends what for country you like. for natural beauty, my country has less to offer, but maybe you do appreciate flat landscapes and delta area's, i don't know1 Some foreigners seems to think the landscape is beautifull in my country. I personally think that about any country is more beautifull with nature, due to the high urbanization, industrial parks and massive dense grid of highways, trains etc, densest of the world.But it's a good country to live, it's continually highly ranked for standards of living, quality of life etc.

i hope it helped you!!

[shreypete]

Originally Posted by FlyingDutch

It's difficult Switserland is very stable untill now, but they are like an island, on their own. My father lived in Switserland for 2 years, they are very on their own and isolated, the world outside is alien to them pretty much what i understood. Maybe that the younger generations are different today...i don't know.It's a wonderfull country.

Norway is extremely wealthy , just as Switserland very beautifull with nature. I like it!! But i don't know how it is to really live their for somebody like you to be honest. I think you would be impressed how super new and well maintained it all is ther,e such incredibly wealthy country!! My country is probably more populair, for people who like nightlife, like in Amsterdam etc. The westen part of the Netherlands is one massive urban spraw of 7.5 million people, with insane traffic, most busy traffic of nay nation. The export is 40% of the US in value and that is just a little too much for my small country of 16 million peoplewich is 230 times smaller then your country! So expect a very busy crowded country. It depends what for country you like. for natural beauty, my country has less to offer, but maybe you do appreciate flat landscapes and delta area's, i don't know1 Some foreigners seems to think the landscape is beautifull in my country. I personally think that about any country is more beautifull with nature, due to the high urbanization, industrial parks and massive dense grid of highways, trains etc, densest of the world.But it's a good country to live, it's continually highly ranked for standards of living, quality of life etc.

i hope it helped you!!

Yes inded, that was of great help. I completely agree with you on Switzerland and Norway. They're such wealthy countries but what keeps me from going there is the fact they seem to be well-knit, isolated countries from the rest of the continent for that matter. It makes me think twice because I also heard that the people are way too reserved.

Regarding learning dutch, I love learning languages (I can speak decent german, french and spanish) and I did take an introductory dutch course when I was a kid and I absolutely loved the language.

I am aware of the hindoestaneans from Suriname indeed. I heard they are the one of the predominating minorities in the Netherlans. In fact my parents themselves come from a place called Goa (in India) which is a former portuguese colony (so most of us are all christians) but close to Goa are two other independent territories: Daman and Diu (both were former dutch colonies and this was where the first Dutch East Indian company was set up).

Thank you once again for your insight Flying Dutch. The only thing that scares me a bit is that if I were to settle in Amsterdam, I'm intimidated by the fact that my kids will have a hard time (Especially since Amsterdam is quite a liberal city with all their sex clubs, and bustling nightlife and legalization of certain drugs...and that gives me the chills ).

[FlyingDutch]

Yes inded, that was of great help.

Alright!!

I completely agree with you on Switzerland and Norway. They're such wealthy countries but what keeps me from going there is the fact they seem to be well-knit, isolated countries from the rest of the continent for that matter. It makes me think twice because I also heard that the people are way too reserved.

Switserland is becoming closer and closer to us, but the Netherland went up the last years. Excepted for Norway, wich is just double of most wealthy country or even 3 times of certain bit less wealthy countries now!

Indeed, Swiss are reserved, Norwegians probably too. Both these nations are not EU members. The Netherlands is always been a seafaring nation, Norway too,. but we where one of the major traders, the nickname was that the Dutch where "The Chinese of Europe" because of merchandize.
That and being located between euroe's 3 major countries and transport hubs makes it very focussesd on the world and open. We see a lot about the U'S for example on tv, cause Germany and the US both matters a lot to us.

Regarding learning dutch, I love learning languages (I can speak decent german, french and spanish) and I did take an introductory dutch course when I was a kid and I absolutely loved the language.

Then it shouldn't be a problem. Dutch, if i would speak it to you, would sound like a have throat problem to you..hahaha....but you wouldn't be able to follow it. Only if youn write it down, you would start to see many simularities with English and because you know German, you certainly would see simularities. Dutch is a kind of dialect, it came out of German originally. Englihs came from Old englihs for example is so much like Dutch or German. The grammer is complicated, but i think listenign to you that you wouldn't have any problems with it!

I am aware of the hindoestaneans from Suriname indeed. I heard they are the one of the predominating minorities in the Netherlans.

Exactly! 150,000 and growing, so roughly 1% of the population.
Many live in the Hague, Rotterdam as second city. The Hague also has a Hindu Temple, i believe Rotterdam too now.

In fact my parents themselves come from a place called Goa (in India) which is a former portuguese colony (so most of us are all christians) but close to Goa are two other independent territories: Daman and Diu (both were former dutch colonies and this was where the first Dutch East Indian company was set up).

Aha!It's the same as formosa, the old name of Sri Lanka, it was Portguguese and also hold by the dutch, all East Indian Compagny, black page of dutch history with shipping slaves. That's how Indians ended up in suriname on the other side of the world! and that didn't always go voluntairily, they weeren't shipped like black slaves what i understood, but where offered jobs, but once there it was different.I think they where fooled by false promisses of jobs. a bit liek Thai women are made believe by womentraders to work in the Western world and end up in prostitution, horrible!

Very interresting what you told. The Netherlands was very christian, in the 1950s the Us was seen as ultra liberal, today it's rather the opposite. dutch are atheistic for most part like most of Western Europe these days. Churches disappear and basicly get replaced for the fast growing moslem populations. Most revival of dutch christianity is caused by the black community. in rotterdam there is a major organization, basicly a black church, but they do sersmons in Dutch adn there is an american englihs translation right after what the pastors tells. and you see flags hanging. norwegians, Surinimahs, all kinds of nationalities are there. Cause there are not so many churches left, many whites attend this black church. They even have these sermons online on Google.

Victory Outreach Rotterdam zondag Eredienst Pasen
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... =rotterdam

Eredienst means sermon and pasen means Easter.

Rotterdam's population is for more then half of non Western immigrants.

A new phenomenon, i think it compares a lot to Afro American churches in the USA..it seems to me!

Thank you once again for your insight Flying Dutch.

No problem!!

The only thing that scares me a bit is that if I were to settle in Amsterdam,
I'm intimidated by the fact that my kids will have a hard time (Especially since Amsterdam is quite a liberal city with all their sex clubs, and bustling nightlife and legalization of certain drugs...and that gives me the chills ).

Understandable, i will explain a few things, cause stories go around the globe about it.
Drug addiction is lower then in almsot any country, might be surprising to you. The legalization of what we call "soft drugs", like all natural grown drugs, is taking away the criminal element. Therefore the price of it drops and it's not lucrative to trade in it anymore, the criminal element is almost gone. BUT...it's true that if children go to a coffeeshop, places where drugs are sold, not just coffee, it's easy tog et them for cheap!
This is as controvery, many coffeeshops within a certain range close tos chools are closed and more and more are closed.

Amsterdam, wich really had a bad name because of it, although many tourists just came for it, whole planeloads fo British...lol...is cleanign up!
The biggest redlight district of the world is shrinking. The citycouncil si tired of their image and likes to be a clean city/ The Redlight district did have troubles with crime and maffia was running it. so they are rolling that back. Rotterdam did that too a long tiem ago, but prostitutions tarted to spread over the city,. Outside Amsterdam and Rotterdam there are more cities and town that have this that most foreigners never heard about. The city of Arnhem, around 150,000 of population is notorious for it's redlight district and crme related issues.

In Amsterdam it's just a part of the city, so it's not like that it happesn everywhere, so if you live in a totally different neighbourhood you don't have to worry. although kids can go to it in downtown.
First thing when i was at school and a trip to Amsterdam was amde was that all boys immediatly went to that area, curious as they are..that's what you get ofcourse.
But Amsterdam is very liberal, so if you like a less "sex, drugs & rock "n" roll type of city, there are so many others!! But most people don't know them, keep in mind that the distances are very small here, it's a small country, so it's easy to go from city A to city B...by public transport or by car, if there are no trafic jams at least.

so you can go to the Hague or Rotterdam or Delft Utrecht, or any city you like and you're still close to Amsterdam and the national airport.

Or if you need to fly, you can go via Brussels in Belgium, Eindhoven in the Netherlands or Germany, it's all relativly close!!
but it's not like there are heroin addicts pushing neeedles on every corner of the street in Amsterdam, that is a bit the image of the city, sleazy, it wants to get rid of that image, it wasn't evne true, it was not that bad! Go to any major French city, where they are away more conservative or the UK and much more people are into drugs for example.

But if you think it's a problem i would go for another city, at least you don't have it that bad like in Amsterdam except for Arhnem.