Questions about Amsterdam and Netherlands (unemployment, neighbourhoods, to buy)

[shreypete]

Thank you again for clearing up that for me...perhaps considering a different city would be make a good alternative.

[FlyingDutch]

Correction:

i earlier talked about Sri Lanka as formaso, but it was Ceylon, Taiwan had the old name Formosa.
In both cases it was taken by the Portuguese and later taken by the dutch. I messed it up

Thank you again for clearing up that for me...perhaps considering a different city would be make a good alternative.

Amsterdam is an interresting city, but there are many nice cities and town in the Netherlands and many are heavily underrated because most foreigners / tourists go to see old channels, old Dutch culture and merchant houses and then the nightlife made it populair abroad.

But there are many pleasant cities to live in. Rotterdam is nice for people who like a dynamic city wich is constantly building, new architecture and renewing itself. It has one of the largest skylines of Europe.
But even there, let's say you cannot find a nice neighbourhood or you think it's not your city to live, but you wanna be there because of other facilities, then there are many suburbs.
Rotterdam is the largest urban area of the country. It has the formely largest port of the world, passed by Shanghai and Singapore the last years. Most part of the Dutch economy is earned in Rotterdam. An advantage is that that city has a relativly lower standards of living, many ordinairy people, many immigrants, so the prices are lower. There are not so many big cities where you can live in highrise buildings, in case you would like that for the price that is offered there!You will meet mostly ordinairy people, real people with real lifes, a real city. There are aslo wealthy families, and area's. Especially captians of industry. The largest indistrial area is there int he port area. The port is 6 times the size of the city, it's just massive, it's is 9 times larger then the New York New Jersey Porth authorities to get an idea.
It's a city known for hardworking and there are more cafe's pubs horeca then in amsterdam, wich is a thing most people don't know. It's alsot eh city with the most suarq meters of shopping area.
Rotterdam went for a mdoern style, didn't rebuilt itself after Nazi Germany's bombardments of teh city, it lookliked hiromshina. Only a few odl parts are left, wich also is nice as contrast.

So a lot what the city did was building a N-American style city, and right now they are trying to revive the earlier almost clinical dead downtown area,cause if offices closed, nobody was there and it became dangerous. That is bettering and more residential towers arrive in downtown and more shops, restaurants in area's dedicated for offices.

For a comparisson if you liek to know Rotterdam's downtown is relativly large for a city of it's size, it's like Midtown Manhattan. It's more spacious then most Dutch or European cities. It has the largest mopen air market of europe for example, it's totally multicultural. If you walk tehre you barely hear a word dutch. Many places to eat foreign snacks. Rotti for example and other snacks.

You also can live in Delft, quiet city between Rotterdam and The HAgue, it has the channels like amsterdam sia round 100,000 of population with connections to both cities, both just 10 km from it. It's basicly one massive urban area, the The Hague -Delft-Rotterdam area is seperated by some green fields, some hothouse area's etc.

Delft has many monumnetal buildings, is a populair tourist destination aswell and it's basicly pretty close to all 3 major cities, Amsterdam is only 40 miles from it or so. By train you are there in no time. Or by car.

I'm curious if you can make up your mind shreypete!!

[shreypete]

Well flyingdutch, you've completely given me a new opinion about the Netherlands and this is something I will look into. Indeed, I do want to mix with "normal people with normal lives" because I've had enough of the other end of the spectrum (rich people in rich neighborhoods) throughout my childhood. So yes, I would love it but at the same time, I would like to live in a really good neighborhood and I most certainly do enjoy nightlife (but I doubt I would get too much free time on my hands).


I would also like to know how the dutch people are? I did read your previous posts on this thread...but how do Dutch people do in terms of relationships. I've also found Dutch women to be a little sophisticated (Which I love by all means) but I'm sure they must be drawing boundaries as to whom they meet? date? I'm sorry I'm asking a very touch question, but it's only out of curiousity.

I'm ruling out Norway and Switzerland from my list. Norway, because it just seems out there...far way into the wilderness...cold, freezing wilderness lol. And Switzerland because they have quite strict restrictions about doctors working in their country...that and the fact that the Swiss people are way too reserved and not-so mingling. But I can't judge them for myself as I haven't been there. I've only this from tons and tons of people who've been there.

What is your take on Belgium flyingdutch? Belgium has also always impressed me as it's the center of the EU government and the fact that it's a multilingual country (with Dutch, French, and German being the national languages). This has impressed me a lot because I would love for my kids (when I have them) to be able to speak a few languages (especially French, Spanish, Dutch, and German). But unfortunately, I haven't found too many belgians on this forum...so perhaps you might know something??

Thank you. I appreciate it.

[wheregirl]

Thank you, Flyingdutch, for your very informative answers.

Why are the Dutch called "the Chinese of Europe"? What is the nickname of some other European nationalities?

Thanks to you, I am leaning so much about the Netherlands and Europe!

[FlyingDutch]

Thank you, Flyingdutch, for your very informative answers.

ok!!

Why are the Dutch called "the Chinese of Europe"? What is the nickname of some other European nationalities?

Of others i don't know but Chinese throughout the ages are known as trader, merchants, like the dutch are seafaring and trading intensivly for centuries. Because of the massive trade of the dutch and the Golden Age of the 17th century when Holland, the Western part of my country was the world power, they are called the Chinese of Europe.
Dutch still have it, if they go to Turkey they rather do bargaining then Germans for example. while we are very close and simular as germans basicly, they don't do that on average. It's in our genes it seems!!

I do know some nicknames of European cities like Frankfurt, the financial capital of Germany is located along the river Main and just as Rotterdam it was bombed during WWII and rebuilt as modern city with tall buildings. They call it "Mainhattan". Amsterdam is sometimes called the Venice of Northern Europe, because of the channels.

Thanks to you, I am leaning so much about the Netherlands and Europe!

[wheregirl]

Thank you, FlyingDutch.

Then, are the Dutch similar to the Chinese in the following aspect: the Chinese are called "a collection of loose sands", i.e., you won't ever find them bound together like the Germans or the Japanese. Because of that, it is safer from the kind of Nazi propaganda that the German and the Japanese population are vulnerable to. Are the Dutch similarly more individualistic and sophisticated like the Chinese are?

That makes a safer population.

How would you compare the Dutch to the Austrians?

Thanks.

[FlyingDutch]

Well flyingdutch, you've completely given me a new opinion about the Netherlands and this is something I will look into.

Sometimes far away countries are different then imagioned or have surprises. I noticed that too, my nicest surprise untill now was Vietnam.
Sucha wonderfull country. Big surprise...so much to see, so authentic still.

Indeed, I do want to mix with "normal people with normal lives" because I've had enough of the other end of the spectrum (rich people in rich neighborhoods) throughout my childhood.

The you will like Rotterdam people, i don't say that because i come from that area, but because they are known as ordinairy down to Earth people, hard workers. The city is very dynamic, allways huge construction going on wich i think is very interresting. Always new things and places. It's one of the cities where architects make the most money in Europe continually.
It's a city with surprises and mega events culturally, especially durign summer time with the third biggest Caribbean carnival on Earth after Rio de Janeiro and Loindon. Many come over from S-America and London to be in Rotterdam too on that day when almost amillion people gather there the last years...more then the population of the core city.
There are the world port days with ships coming every year, also massive.
Many events. But it also has surprising spots in the city people don't expect. But if you like to be in a smaller city, there are so many towns and cities. the Netherlands has many cities in the range of 100,000 to 200,000 inhabitants. These cities are often quite important regionally,so have a lot to do aswell. shopping is never a problem.

We have many hopping streets, that's uncommon to most americans.Malls are something of the last 15 years, but there are many streets full with stores and these can be very cozy, special atmopshere.There are LOTS of snacks, Dutch eat lots of snacks and we have many Dutch specials nobody else had. so that might be interresting if you are interrested.

So yes, I would love it but at the same time, I would like to live in a really good neighborhood and I most certainly do enjoy nightlife (but I doubt I would get too much free time on my hands).

I would also like to know how the dutch people are? I did read your previous posts on this thread...but how do Dutch people do in terms of relationships

alright.

. I've also found Dutch women to be a little sophisticated (Which I love by all means) but I'm sure they must be drawing boundaries as to whom they meet? date? I'm sorry I'm asking a very touch question, but it's only out of curiousity.

ok, Dutch women are very independend and have a strong sense of selfesteem compared to most others. Due to cultural; changes and how the media, tv and Madison Avenue tells what women should looklike etc, they are still relativly theirselves. THe attitude is in general:"you take me how i am and if not, then it's a pitty".
I think that's good. so many oppose to the cultural phenomenon of skinny fasionmodels. Dutch women are independend and know what they want.
But i think they are nice in general. They just don't let them being fooled.

By the way, dutch people are the tallest people on Earth for many years, and women are very tall in particular compared to anybody else.

The Dutch Are the World's Tallest People

DutchNews.nl - New survey confirms Dutch are tallest

The Dutch Are the World's Tallest People, The Dutch Are the World's Tallest People Thanks to Their Nation's Health and Wealth - CBS News

With their protein-rich diet and a national health service that pampers infants, the Dutch are standing taller than ever. The average Dutchman stands just over 6 feet, while women average nearly 5-foot-7.

"More and more people are becoming aware of our needs," Van Sprundel said.

The club has a membership of 2,000 individuals and families, or about 4,500 people including children. But Van Sprundel said the requirements are minimal, to conform with similar clubs in other countries _ about 6-foot-3 for men and 5-foot-11 for women.

By those standards, he estimates about 800,000 people would qualify in this country of 16 million.

It wasn't always this way.

In 1848, one man out of four was rejected by the Dutch military because he was shorter than 5-foot-2. Today, fewer than one in 1,000 is that short.

As lifestyles improve, Maat said the average height of a Dutch man could reach 6-foot-3 within 50 years. The influx of immigrants from North Africa may slow the growth rate, but their descendants could catch up in a few generations.

But wealth doesn't explain everything. Scandinavians, who are among the world's tallest people at 6 feet, are not getting taller on average, apparently hitting their genetic glass ceiling.

"With better food, Pygmies will increase in height, but you will never make Dutchmen out of them. It's just not there in the genes," Maat said.

"Since we are still on the move, we don't know where it's going to end," he said. "It's upward, yes, but how far upward we don't know."

So expect tall women on average.
They are a little sophisticated i guess. I do think they care for themselves pretty much. Especially if they go to Southern europe and turkey they often get more then average attention of men there and that can get nasty, many love dutch women / girls. But on average the dutch women are very clear if things get out of control and they don't want to be bothered for example. Good thing!

I'm ruling out Norway and Switzerland from my list. Norway, because it just seems out there...far way into the wilderness...cold, freezing wilderness lol.

haha. Osloa has the same average temperature as Amsterdam, but North of Oslao,
it's pretty cold, it only get colder.
Switserland can be very hot during summertime, they are between Northern and Southern europe, but they are continental, so during wintertimes they have this cold continental weather because of the european landmass colling.
While the Netherlands has this mild weather, due to the reltivly warm North Sea, wich is fed by a warm streaming from the Mexican Gulf, keeps it icefree, Norway too by the way.
But it rains a lot, it is pretty windy on average.

But indeed, Switserland and norway is much more wilderness.
Some people rather would like to be there, some in the Netherlands, it depends what kind of type of person you are i guess.

And Switzerland because they have quite strict restrictions about doctors working in their country...that and the fact that the Swiss people are way too reserved and not-so mingling.

Indeed, i like Switserland, but i have to be honest, and they are not so fond on immigrants, the border checkings are also pretty strict and i've experienced things with colored Dutch people on the Swiss border that i didnt like....i don't want to generalize Swiss, but that's what i saw and i didn't saw it in many other countries.Maybe that the young generations are different, i don't know. They are a kind of island on their own yet.

If you cross the border with Austria, you notice a huge difference, people are way more open,talkative etc. But in relation to what you said, i am not sure if austria would be a good place.

But I can't judge them for myself as I haven't been there. I've only this from tons and tons of people who've been there.

It's also very difficult.Y ou can meet nice people ev3erywhere they change your paradigm for example. lol

What is your take on Belgium flyingdutch? Belgium has also always impressed me as it's the center of the EU government and the fact that it's a multilingual country (with Dutch, French, and German being the national languages). This has impressed me a lot because I would love for my kids (when I have them) to be able to speak a few languages (especially French, Spanish, Dutch, and German). But unfortunately, I haven't found too many belgians on this forum...so perhaps you might know something??

Belgium doesn't exist, it's not a people or nation basicly. It might fall apart one day. There is severe tensions between the Dutch, flemish and French or Wallons speaking.
The French want to be part of France more and more and the flemish don't want to pay for the debts of the French part. It's almost impossible to govern that nation anymore, many crises politically, it's that it is located in the same area as the Netherlands, tradinghub, that economic disasters where avoided.

See if i go to the French part, like the beautifull Ardennes region in particular, most French speaking don't talk dutch to me, while they have learned it at school. But they just hate it. Because of the linguistic battle internally. But i have nothing to do with that battle, i'm not flemish, i'm dutch and i don't care, to me all people are people, i judge them individually. But you notice the tension immediatly, so you have to be lucky to find a nice person who doesn't care about the language and culture him or herself.

I don't considder Belgium multi-cultural, cause that is an expression that you only can hold if all those cultures live together in harmony without tenions and hate, that's not the case in Belgium. i witnessesthat german speaker in the eastern part of Germany removed a French nameplate of a village and replaced it by a German one. so they are all clashing there.

Big powers forced Belgium into existance, just as former Yugoslavia, it never was a people or nation voluntairly, that's just what you can see.

I love Belgium as country, but i don't like some of the social conditions there.Brussels is extremely riot sensitive as city. Lots of northern Africans / Arabs who are very angry and disappointed, just like in France and their social condition is much worse then of the same groups in the Netherlands or Germany.

Belgium is wealthy, but you don't see it if you look around in most cities, just like French people they are careflessa bout how things look, houses, cars etc. This is a difference if you cross the border with Germany, where people maintaine verything beautifully, just a different mentality.
Dutch are more like Germans in that sense. Belgiums go out for diner and live outsoors much more, they really care less about how their car lookslikes, if you park it they might bump it so that they can go in between. Dutch or Germans get extremely upset if there is just on scratch. In Amsterdam they can bump your car too...they have no room for cars in that city basicly, it's too narrow with these narrow streets,,especially in the old part of the city. LOL

Belgians are pretty down to earth, i mean flemish then. They are better in writing dutch then dutch themselves and they are sometimes right judging dutch. They sometimes say that dutch are arrogant, have big mouths and are knowing everything better, i think that is true a bit.
Dutch and Belgians make lots of jokes about eachother.

They have nice places, but i wonder....i certainly wouldn't move to Brussels. Brussels has the NATO HQ, the EU HQ.
In my country The Hague has many institutes, like the International Court of Justice. for Brussels as city the EU is a welcome thing the city makes lots of money of it.

It's hard to judge Belgium, or the Flemish. for myself, if i ever would move i would go to Germany. When i'm in Germany it feels comfortable and the people are more the same, i think that despite Felmish where part of the Netherlands in the past, there is alarger gap of culture then with Germans.
for me Belgium is a little too messy and too much of a chaos. It's a bit the Italy of the North.If you like that, it's ok, but i don't like it. I like german towns and cities with well maintained streets and flowers that are making it a colorfull scenery. By the way, the food is really really good in both Belgium and Germany. Dutch cuisine is not so special.

Thank you. I appreciate it.

You're welcome!!

[shreypete]

Hey there flyingdutch, so I've finally decided to go back to the US and do my residency and then try out for Netherlands. Because ultimately I do have to return home, but I do very much want to experience life in the Netherlands so I will work there for sometime after my residency.

As I'm in med school now, I'm going to see if I can apply for some clinical elective courses in Maastrict or Leiden or the Erasmus University of Rotterdam and see if I get in. Also I have a small favor to ask of you. You mentioned an indian form South Africa who went to med school back home and is now working in the Netherlands. How did she manage with the language? Could you just inquire from her how the employment is for doctors at the moment? (and for the next few years?) Will they need extra expenditure (like their savings) or are their salaries enough to sustain themselves?

The only things that come to my mind when I think of the Netherlands are tulips, the orange day, Borrel gin and the dutch supermarkets back home (which were awesome!!!)

Dank u wel

[FlyingDutch]

Hey there flyingdutch, so I've finally decided to go back to the US and do my residency and then try out for Netherlands.

Alright!!I hope it will be anice or interresting experience to you at least!

Because ultimately I do have to return home, but I do very much want to experience life in the Netherlands so I will work there for sometime after my residency.

I understand. Just as anywhere else, it's harder to get a job now because of teh Global economic crisis, but probably ebtter then most countries, cause unemployment is still very low and there are still enough jobs yet to be fulfilled. That's positive.

As I'm in med school now, I'm going to see if I can apply for some clinical elective courses in Maastrict or Leiden or the Erasmus University of Rotterdam and see if I get in.

ok, forget about it is harder to get a job, healthcare is not included!
They scream about hiring people!! i will talk about that later.

Alright!!Rotterdam is building the biggest medical academic hospital of Europe by the way. It's also named to Eramus. It already exists, but they are expanding it enormously. Maastricht is a very different city with even French influence, it's close to Belgium and Germany, it's also a local culture you have there in this province of Limburg, totally different!
Leiden is roughly between the Hague and Amsterdam. but indeed, those are the places to be for medical school as far as i know. Rotterdam is also for economics, but it's not reallya student city with student life like Amsterdam, Delft, Leiden en Groningen ( Groningen is in the North East, city of 200,000)

Also I have a small favor to ask of you. You mentioned an indian form South Africa who went to med school back home and is now working in the Netherlands. How did she manage with the language?

She is not going to a medical school...i think you misunderstood or i was unclear, but she's working for an american company, something with computers. She's the wife of my cousin.

But she is doing great, cause she knew Afrikaanse quite well. Afrikaans is a dialect based on Dutch, with some englihs German and Danish mixed into it that Afrikaners, white S-Africans speak. It's basicly a language created by Dutch seafaring folkes who ended up there. To me it's very funny, it sounds abit simple. Later it adopted some words of these other languages other white communities in S-Africa took with them. But it's basicly dutch dialect and i have talked to Afrikaners in the plane when i once went to there, i can follow most, sometimes i don't understand it.

Same for my cousin's wife, she was raised by nuns. there she got a priveleged education. Her parents where quite wealthy, but colored people had no right to receive the same education as whites udner the apartheid system of S-Africa. But because of it she was able to understand Afrikaans, wich is uncommon normally by most Indian S-African people. This gave her a huge advantage here in the Netherlands.

Could you just inquire from her how the employment is for doctors at the moment? (and for the next few years?) Will they need extra expenditure (like their savings) or are their salaries enough to sustain themselves?

I cannot answer that, but i know there is a shortage of doctors in my country. so much that surgeries cannot be done sometimes and people are send to Belgium or Germany. Healthcare is always been very good, but there are some major problems, like shortages of employees.

But like anybody else, if you are unemployed you get welfare. Welfare was the best with Sweden of the world, but the last 25 years the Netherlands have chosen to reduce the percentage you receive. In the past it was 100% of last earned salary. Today it is 70% of your salary with a maximum. Doctors have high incomes, so 70% would be too much, so you receive maximum welfare for a duration of 1 years. In the past it was longer, and they talk about it to eventually shorten that to a half year.But compared to in the US and also in purchasing power welfare is 3-5 times as high then in the US, so no worries there in case you end up in troubles. You are allowed to only have a specific amount of savings if you draw of welfare, i believe it's Euro 5000 that is the maximum, so if you exceed that with your savings, you have to go back tot eh maximum to receive full welfare. But i expect that you can find a job easily, regarding teh shortage on the labourmarket in the health care system and in particular to find doctors. but salaries of doctors are really good. That shouldn't be any problem.

If you put the next article in Babelfish ( Google "Babelfish") you should end up with a translation that should be understandable i hope:

dinsdag 29 april 2008 door NRC Handelsblad De dokter op de markt
commentaar » De dokter op de markt

In short it tells that we have 4 times less medical doctors then Belgium and two times less then Germany. France 3 times. This results in high salaries of medical doctors for the Netherlands.

De inkomens van de vrij gevestigde specialisten in Nederland zijn dan ook de hoogste van de rijke landen, blijkt uit vergelijkende cijfers van de OESO. Ook andere Nederlandse artsen verdienen veel naar internationale normen.

It says that :" The incomes of commercial specialists in the Netherlands are the highest of all wealthy nations,became clear because of comparable figures fo the OECDC. The incomes of other medical doctors ae also a lot compared to international comparisson". ( freely translated)

So i would say, get rich and have a good time!! hahaha

That shortage won't disappear the next comign years either, it's there for quite some years, aslong as i can remember. It only grew worse. I think they will take soem emasures if it gets out of control. The idea that people haas to go to Belgium and Germany is really strange, i mean,we are one of the most advanced countries. Well, in the US it would be like going from one to another state for medical help and not even large states geographically seen!

Maybe i get you as doctor i hope you will care about my health too, not just about the money...lol!!

The only things that come to my mind when I think of the Netherlands are tulips, the orange day, Borrel gin and the dutch supermarkets back home (which were awesome!!!)

haha..the classical steroptype thing!! i know! tulips are nice!
Dutch merchants in the 17th Century,. the golden age, received them from the sultan of the Ottomon empire in Istanbul, turkey. The turks, came originally from Central Asia and that's where tulips came from originally.
Dutch started to import them and a lively trade started.Tulips is where stock exchanges started with. The stockexchange of Amsterdam is the oldest of the world and tulips where really like antics or stocks today.
Most merchant houses in Amsterdam are built on fortunes of tulip trade!!

The supermarkets are indeed pretty small compared of neighbouring countries, cause there are so many. But we also get clustering and like you see in France, the US, UK etc, with giant supermarket along ringways or just outside the city. but there are still many downtown or in neighbourhoods. Wich is conveneint. It's not like in Dallas in Texas that you have to drive 30 minutes to find a supermarket on the edge of theh city or so. The scale of things is different here, it's like a big village a bit, lots of people crammed together. but lots of facilities. cities as Rotterdam and The Hague in particular have many import product from tropical countries. Like indian foods etc...in case you desire that.
There are typical Dutch foodstuffs, but also several American chains if you're into that.

Dank u wel

geen probleem. het is leuk om iemand te helpen = no problem. it's nice to help somebody.

By the way i saw something on tv, months ago about Dutch doctors who carried out suergerie with American doctors together via live communication...Really cool!!

[shreypete]

Hey flyingdutch,
You've been a truly resourceful person! . Of course as a future doctor, patient's needs and patient health care is the top priority (money is actually a secondary issue for me as my parents are really nice ).

I've started learning dutch from 2 days back and I'm having fun with it so far (the pronunciation is quite hard actually but a lot of the words resemble England and German words.)