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Old 06-09-2009, 05:11 AM
 
Location: Bergen, Norway
221 posts, read 203,800 times
Reputation: 140

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japanese people and germans are known inventors.

russia also have their fair share of geniouses along with south korea.

USA have also invented a lot of stuff, but remember that americans descend mostly from german immigrants, so yeah!!

and of course - china!!

so id say the smartest/most creative nationes are (in no particular order): japan, germany, russia, south korea and china!!

 
Old 06-09-2009, 11:18 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
2,241 posts, read 4,812,330 times
Reputation: 789
Quote:
Originally Posted by NihonKitty View Post
You are a western-centric so of course you are only going to recognize greek and european thinkers for the reason of european advancement while completely ignoring china. This is totally expected.
I think we're on two different pages here. In the U.S. it is quite common to condemn everything Western...."whites are the scourge of the earth, the only racists, the only ones who've enslaved others, the sole cause of war and oppression...the only reason they have technology is because they've oppressed others, etc." --These critiques come mostly from white educated liberals and these positions are extremely common in American universities (something which you don't seem to understand all that well, but I do considering my 6 years of higher education at American university).

Thus, when you come out and start noting that the Chinese had blast furnaces before the Europeans, you sound just like the broken records and haters in this country who refuse to give any credit to the ingenuity of the West...so let me reiterate differently: virtually every educated person in this country knows that China, Japan, the Middle East, Egypt, etc, etc has invented some brilliant things that contributed to European advancement...but Western advancement does not owe everything it's done to other cultures or to the oppression of others...in fact, some of the people inventing were "oppressed" themselves...so truly, you talk about the ignorance of the modern U.S. as though it's the 1950s, or as though you read about it in some 1960s hippie pamphlet...something that shows you're own ignorant and outdated perspective. Let me give you a little hint: the perspective that you're illustrating from comes from the American 1960s revolution in American universities, so it ain't exactly new sister. The people in this country who are ignorant of China and Japan are also ignorant of Ancient Greece, the Renaissance, and 20th century Germany.

Oh, and FYI, patents are all but utterly meaningless in today's world...I know people who have several patents through IBM and Westinghouse, and they're more for money or corporate boasting than pure invention.

Last edited by ainulinale; 06-09-2009 at 11:27 AM..
 
Old 06-09-2009, 01:35 PM
 
895 posts, read 1,550,859 times
Reputation: 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by ainulinale View Post
I think we're on two different pages here. In the U.S. it is quite common to condemn everything Western...."whites are the scourge of the earth, the only racists, the only ones who've enslaved others, the sole cause of war and oppression...the only reason they have technology is because they've oppressed others, etc." --These critiques come mostly from white educated liberals and these positions are extremely common in American universities (something which you don't seem to understand all that well, but I do considering my 6 years of higher education at American university).

Thus, when you come out and start noting that the Chinese had blast furnaces before the Europeans, you sound just like the broken records and haters in this country who refuse to give any credit to the ingenuity of the West...so let me reiterate differently: virtually every educated person in this country knows that China, Japan, the Middle East, Egypt, etc, etc has invented some brilliant things that contributed to European advancement...but Western advancement does not owe everything it's done to other cultures or to the oppression of others...in fact, some of the people inventing were "oppressed" themselves...so truly, you talk about the ignorance of the modern U.S. as though it's the 1950s, or as though you read about it in some 1960s hippie pamphlet...something that shows you're own ignorant and outdated perspective. Let me give you a little hint: the perspective that you're illustrating from comes from the American 1960s revolution in American universities, so it ain't exactly new sister. The people in this country who are ignorant of China and Japan are also ignorant of Ancient Greece, the Renaissance, and 20th century Germany.

Oh, and FYI, patents are all but utterly meaningless in today's world...I know people who have several patents through IBM and Westinghouse, and they're more for money or corporate boasting than pure invention.
You keep failing harder and harder, not once was i undermining western inventions at all. It is you who cant accept that chinese contributed greatly to the beggining of the european technological revolution. Just accept it, if you did from post one you wouldn't have to respond. I'm not even chinese and i could care less about china, i am stating the facts. I bet 90% of the things i listed from china you didnt even know about, just like i didn't until i looked it up. I could care less if chinese hated themselves or if americans want to kill eachother and feel guilty, i am talking about history and give credit where it's due. History books in the west mention absolutely nothing about china until you get to like college and voluntarily take a class on chinese history will you maybe learn chinese contributions to the world. The chinese had the most advanced civlization in the world until post-renaissance europe. Nothing to argue about.

Almost all chinese inventions were built upon inventions from people earlier, they took it and improved it and made it better and invented something new. Why can't you accept europeans did the same thing? Seems like you only want to recoginze greeks but not chinese, why is that? Chinese are human too. Europeans did take chinese technology (as well as arab, and roman greek philiosphy) improved upon it and had a technological revolution. This is a fact. Does it mean everysingle european invention is taken form china? No i never said that, i said chinese contributions that started the european technological revolution are almost completely ignored in the world and i am saying how important the ancient chinese really were to the modern world. If it wasnt for the arabs trading chinese guns, agriculture, beggining of industry, and the compass to the europeans who knows what would have happened. If the ancient chinese used their technologically to sail the world and make themselves rich as the europeans did, who knows what the world would be like today. But don't act as if the chinese were insignificant and everything is because of the west only. Even marco polo was amazed when he visited china, he saw the first restaurants in the world with the first menus, the first paper money, fire arms, flying kites and gliders, machines to rapidly make clothes and paper (printing), fire works, water power (mills etc) etc. China in the 1300s was almost the same as europe in the 1700s. Everyone on earth knows europe passed the entire planet after the 1700s and i never denied that.

And dont deny the contributions colonialism and slavery did bring to europe/USA. If you cant acknowledge their sacrifices then thats a slap in the face to those people. Am i saying they are the entire reason europe prospered? No but their contributions are undeniable.

Last edited by Bibi12; 06-09-2009 at 01:51 PM..
 
Old 06-09-2009, 02:50 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
2,241 posts, read 4,812,330 times
Reputation: 789
Quote:
Originally Posted by NihonKitty View Post
You keep failing harder and harder, not once was i undermining western inventions at all. It is you who cant accept that chinese contributed greatly to the beggining of the european technological revolution. Just accept it, if you did from post one you wouldn't have to respond. I'm not even chinese and i could care less about china, i am stating the facts. I bet 90% of the things i listed from china you didnt even know about, just like i didn't until i looked it up. I could care less if chinese hated themselves or if americans want to kill eachother and feel guilty, i am talking about history and give credit where it's due. History books in the west mention absolutely nothing about china until you get to like college and voluntarily take a class on chinese history will you maybe learn chinese contributions to the world. The chinese had the most advanced civlization in the world until post-renaissance europe. Nothing to argue about.

Almost all chinese inventions were built upon inventions from people earlier, they took it and improved it and made it better and invented something new. Why can't you accept europeans did the same thing? Seems like you only want to recoginze greeks but not chinese, why is that? Chinese are human too. Europeans did take chinese technology (as well as arab, and roman greek philiosphy) improved upon it and had a technological revolution. This is a fact. Does it mean everysingle european invention is taken form china? No i never said that, i said chinese contributions that started the european technological revolution are almost completely ignored in the world and i am saying how important the ancient chinese really were to the modern world. If it wasnt for the arabs trading chinese guns, agriculture, beggining of industry, and the compass to the europeans who knows what would have happened. If the ancient chinese used their technologically to sail the world and make themselves rich as the europeans did, who knows what the world would be like today. But don't act as if the chinese were insignificant and everything is because of the west only. Even marco polo was amazed when he visited china, he saw the first restaurants in the world with the first menus, the first paper money, fire arms, flying kites and gliders, machines to rapidly make clothes and paper (printing), fire works, water power (mills etc) etc. China in the 1300s was almost the same as europe in the 1700s. Everyone on earth knows europe passed the entire planet after the 1700s and i never denied that.

And dont deny the contributions colonialism and slavery did bring to europe/USA. If you cant acknowledge their sacrifices then thats a slap in the face to those people. Am i saying they are the entire reason europe prospered? No but their contributions are undeniable.
Are you sure you know English well enough to be posting on an American website? I never said the Chinese didn't contribute to Western technology; I never said slaves didn't contribute; every post has been in reaction primarily to the idea that the Chinese caused Western ingenuity; whether you expressly stated that or not is irrelevant.

The references to your train of thought prevalent at American universities is this: that you are ignorant of American thought just as you criticize myself and other Westerners for not understanding the East (OMG! Did I say "East"? I guess I'm being ethnocentric because China and Japan are only east relative to the West...how horribly ignorant of me!)

In continued demonstration of your ignorance on American education, many (if not most) universities REQUIRE classes called World Cultures. In fact, the university that I went to required nearly a minor's worth of World Cultures classes (of which three quarters had to be non-Western history). My high school offered nearly as much on East Asian history as it did European history...in my whole life I have only ever been required to take one semester's worth of European history and that was in 11th grade. So you can spout on about our lack of Asian understanding and over emphasis on Western history, but you're wrong...flat out wrong.

I'll reiterate my point: you can bicker as much as you want about how much influence free cotton picking in the Southern U.S. contributed to Northern Industry (I'd even argue that the act of freeing the slaves contributed more than the free labor), and the Chinese compass to Quantum Mechanics, but the fact remains that the basics of modern technology were developed at European universities (which were started by and through the commitment to Greek thought), and had as much to do with Chinese compasses as Asian skyscrapers have to do with Indian wigwams. The thought (and yes it was thought) that drove modern technology was raw inquiry into the sciences (again, from the Greeks); inquiry into electromagnetism, mechanics, mathematics, etc. and not people sitting around devising improvements on guns---how can you deny this when all such advances came through universities bent on philosophy and study? In fact, a massive proportion of the discoveries and developments were actually aristocratic hobbies, not war-mongering innovators.

Acquiring wealth from past cultures' development (and/or influence), permitting a climate in which technology can potentially be advanced does not contribute in the same way as the thought that propagated such advances. If war and Chinese agriculture was the driving factor to these innovations, human civilization would have developed these technologies well before the Europeans.

Let's review:

Past Innovations: Helped develop European war-winning.

War: Generated wealth enough for a civilized climate (ironically).

Greek Thought: The structure that drove the scientific revolution within a capable climate.

You can emphasize the "Past Innovations" and "War" part as much as you like, but it was undoubtedly university philosophy and science that drove the advancements made.

P.S. Flying a kite and flying a human are, in no way, comparable.
 
Old 06-09-2009, 07:42 PM
 
Location: US Empire, Pac NW
5,012 posts, read 6,452,428 times
Reputation: 4125
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Folks, the Old World was intricately tied. Ideas constantly flowed back and forth through the various civilizations in Europe, North Africa, the Middle East, the Iranian Plateau, Central Asia, India, Southeast Asia, and East Asia. Each area influenced each other and added to the entire Old World's knowledge. Just feel good that together, East and West, helped develop the diseases and tools necessary to decimate the rest of the world. United, we are unstoppable!
+1

As I tried to post through the shouting and posturing in my post as well. The ancient world was connected as well ... it just took a lot longer to transmit ideas!

Most inventions are based on prior knowledge anyway, or at least a flash of insight combined with old knowledge.
 
Old 06-09-2009, 08:22 PM
 
4,512 posts, read 4,665,202 times
Reputation: 788
i have a question. afraid it sounds dumb.

smart???

how about the story coming with the invention of the chess game?

how about the story of the fugger?

all previous posts reveal great potential. much appreciated.

 
Old 06-09-2009, 08:26 PM
 
Location: USA
3,971 posts, read 6,186,750 times
Reputation: 2105
Germany,China, England, and France. That about covers it.
 
Old 06-09-2009, 10:33 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
2,241 posts, read 4,812,330 times
Reputation: 789
Quote:
Originally Posted by NihonKitty View Post
Chinese were the first to invent the 365 calendar day of the year while europeans still believed the world was flat.
I just couldn't pass this up it gave me such a laugh. First of all, the Egyptians invented the first 365 day calendar 6000 years ago.

Secondly, people in the western world have known the earth was spherical since the ancient Phoenicians.

Thirdly, you've apparently never heard of the Antikythera Mechanism, which featured the first differential gear not seen for another 1500 years. You wanna guess who invented it? The Ancient Greeks.

Fourthly, I guess you haven't heard of Ferdinand Verbiest the Flemish mathematician who corrected the Chinese calendar in the 1600s.

Please...stop.
 
Old 06-09-2009, 11:27 PM
 
Location: US Empire, Pac NW
5,012 posts, read 6,452,428 times
Reputation: 4125
Quote:
Originally Posted by ainulinale View Post

Please...stop.

You should just stop while you're at it. NihonKitty lives in the USA and hates it, and is returning to her native Japan soon. Living in the sawth of the US of A (OOOH RAH!) has dented her perception of the Western world so much. I think it's funny she attacks us for being Western centric (some truth to that) while she is Sino and Japan-centric.

Aaaanyway ...

My favorite invention: the flush toilet. It's funny how it never caught on in the Far East until recently.

Flush toilet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Otherwise we'd still be squatting and holding onto "grunt bars". I didn't make up that name, that's what many Westerners call the little bar on modern Asian style toilets.


So I give the ancient Indus valley people for inventing it and the ancient Romans for popularizing it.
 
Old 06-09-2009, 11:46 PM
 
33 posts, read 47,440 times
Reputation: 43
Quote:
As I tried to post through the shouting and posturing in my post as well. The ancient world was connected as well ... it just took a lot longer to transmit ideas!

Most inventions are based on prior knowledge anyway, or at least a flash of insight combined with old knowledge.
Well said. Rep to you as well.

Quote:
NihonKitty What do you mean the credit isnt important? Thats like saying indians invented the internet when the US did. Chinese invented moveable type printing not gutenburg.
The eskercurve quote above answers your question. The idea that nations have invented anything is ridiculous. The main reason credit isn't important is because there is no way to give actual credit. Do you credit the person that educated the inventor? Do you credit the family that encouraged the inventor? Do you credit the countless generations of knowledge that make the final step possible? Do you credit those who preserve the knowledge? Do you credit the person that bankrolled the inventor? Inventions are usually the work of eccentrics. Often they are accidents. Often they languish unused for hundreds of years.

If you don't believe me check out a british tv historical series from the 70's called Connections. I know an unnamed internet flix renter has it. It has 70's clothes and production value but very good.

Also the credit isn't important to the western world because it was the Guttenberg printing press that changed the course of western history. That is why we learned about the printing press in the first place. We didn't learn about Guttenberg in the "credit for inventions" class. We learned about the printing press in "history" class because the printing press altered the course of western history. It wasn't a diabolical plot to rob a long dead Chinese man of his credit. The Guttenberg period of western history can not be understood without mention of the printing press. Its not Guttenberg that is important. It is the printing press that is important.
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