What European city for a couple starting a family? (2010, rentals)

[jaytr]

These forums have always helped inform on travel and living experiences, so we would love to hear about where you have lived in Europe and what you would advise for us.

About us: White, American (me) and Polish (wife), polyglots (and open to learning new languages), mid-30s, want to have kids soon, practicing Catholics (with lots of friends of many different religions), white-collar professionals, love to travel/adventurous. I'm an American citizen, and my wife is a Polish/EU citizen with a Green Card (permanent resident). I'm from Los Angeles (actually, Pasadena, which I love), and we now live in NYC, but are moving to DC suburbs soon.

Our thoughts on criteria for where to live (target: 2010):
Climate: moderate weather, including Winters (some snow is OK, but we prefer shorter Winter seasons)--probably rules out most Scandinavian countries
City/Suburbs: fairly green area, reasonably close to a large, attractive city with the amenities of a major airport, shopping, cultural attractions (museums, architecture, music)
Income-to-Cost-of-Living Ratio: we have modest living needs, but we don't want to struggle to survive--prefer a comfortable, middle class lifestyle. We've ruled out Paris and London--we both have family there, and they're nice to visit (like NYC), but tough to live, unless wealthy. The main thing is to find the right balance/proportion between cost of living and income. So, jobs should be available and pay reasonably well, relative to local costs.
Quality of Living: We've read the Mercer surveys (Mercer's 2009 Quality of Living survey highlights), which are helpful. Housing, recreation, education and basic services are important, of course. We enjoy both the attractions of the city (esp. museums and restaurants) and nature (hiking, kayaking). We find that a university integrated with a city brings good cafes, bookstores, music scene, creativity and younger people from outside areas. We also value our sanity, hence the suburbs and not the city center/downtown.

Work visas: with my wife being an EU citizen, I think it's easier for her to get a job. I would require an employer to sponsor me for a work visa, I believe. I also do some freelancing, on the side (moonlighting).

Initial thoughts: Switzerland (Geneva or Zurich) might be a nice place to consider. Austria (Vienna), too, although cost of living (esp. taxes) seems prohibitive. Malta? Luxembourg?

Of course, all the statistics can't measure what it feels like to live somewhere, and visiting a place as a tourist is different from living there. So, if you've lived in a European city that you'd recommend, given our thoughts above (yes, we're willing to compromise on our wish list!), we'd love to hear about it. We will plan trips to the places you recommend, to scout them out. Thank you!

[PalmBch]

Move to Stockholm or Gothenburg, Sweden.

Four season climate (Warm & Sunny summers - Mostly highs of 70s and sometimes 80s, cool to mild spring/fall, cold winters. Winters are similar so Connecticuts, - not as cold and snowy as people might think!)

Friendly people

Lots of things to do... lots of jobs

[Shizzles]

France, Germany, Italy or Spain would love to have you, since their birth rates are in the crapper, sadly. All I heard offer enormus benefits to people with children.

[irman]

Check out Child friendly countries if possible. Italy comes to mind immediately.
We *lived and worked* in the following with 5 kids.
- Switzerland, so-so with children, hard to get in unless employer supported,
very expensive, about 2.5 times USA, I did not like working there at all.
Stayed for 3 years, then got out fast .... Never want to go there again.
- Germany, not so child friendly ... Easier to get a place to live with 5 dogs, then with 5 kids ...
Was on my own (Consulting bureau) Loved that place for work. Stayed 8 years
- Holland, child friendly, good medical services. Stayed 10 years.
- Sweden, OK, so so with kids, expensive, high tax base. Stayed for 4 years.

Do not know about the work availability today.
As as stated above, I had my own business there.
Left Europe for good in 1993, but have been back for visits (pleasure and business) often.
Visited every country in Western Europe, but now based in USA.
Never felt better to be *back home*, although the USA is my adopted country.

Never lived in Italy, but I felt very welcome there when I was there with Wife and kids visiting,
hence my statement that I think Italy is VERY child friendly.
Next is Holland for being *child friendly*. Lots and lots of things especially for children.

One piece of advice. I would not go there to live and work,
unless I did have a job or could support myself and family for at least two years straight.

[jaytr]

Thank you for the recommendations so far, PalmBch, Shizzles and Irman.

I've always said, "It's not the place, it's the people that make the difference." Southern Californians like myself tend to be very open and outgoing. I know that Europeans, in general, are more reserved, but that's OK. So long as people aren't shockingly rude and hostile, I can break the ice. And we'll be involved in church and volunteer in the community, too.

I like Scandinavia and Scandinavians, but my wife feels that those countries' climates are far too cold, with long Winters (example of Stockholm: Average Weather for Stockholm, * - Temperature and Precipitation). I would love to visit more often, but don't think it would suit my wife's climate needs--we both have veto rights. ; )

I would very much like to hear more about child-friendly countries (in addition to our initial criteria). What do you mean by "child-friendly"? And are there some cities, in particular, that seem more family-friendly?

Fascinating to hear from someone who has lived for years in multiple European countries. I've read good things about Switzerland, so I'm surprised to hear you disliked it so much. Cost of living is high, but salaries are high, too, so if you can get a good, white-collar professional job, is it still a problem? We're accustomed to high cost of living (NYC), but the ratio is very important (i.e., income to cost-of-living to quality-of-life). We would live in the suburbs/semi-countryside, preferably, within reasonable distance to the city center. Germany seems pretty nice--I liked the Germans I've met, and infrastructure is a marvel. Income/employment sounds good. Any cities you'd recommend? Holland is an interesting recommendation. Amsterdam is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to raise a family there. Any other cities in Holland? And what do you think of Luxembourg and Malta?

I have to say that, while I do feel it's part of the social contract and our responsibility to pay taxes, I have a hard time swallowing the fact of 50-60% income taxes in some European countries. This article table reveals the tax burdens for countries around the world (for me, the focus is Europe, of course): Tax rates around the world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[sponger42]

Just travelled through Europe, didn't live there.

I'd suggest looking into Brussels, Belgium, Hamburg, Germany, or Dordrecht, Netherlands.

Didn't much like Switzerland, the people seemed really unfriendly and closed-minded, though we stayed with the nicest mixed-race young couple you could find anywhere. Really disliked Vienna for the more-or-less the same reason.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

[jaytr]

Re: Belgium, Germany and the Netherlands--those are interesting possibilities. I've traveled much of Europe, but actually haven't been to Belgium. Brussels appears to be quite nice. Anyone live there (or lived there) and care to comment? Germany is very enjoyable, and the people have always been very friendly, polite and helpful--I was delighted. I've traveled around Germany, but haven't been to the coast/Hamburg. Dordrecht is intriguing--similar to Amsterdam, but I've never been to Dordrecht--only visited Amsterdam and Utrecht.

Many foreigners feel the formalities of certain countries makes the "natives" appear cold and distant. I hope and don't think that will be a problem for us--my wife and I are quite adaptable, friendly, and unimposing. And I'm not shy to ask for help and make new friends! I also practice the Golden Rule and reciprocate and reach out to help others.

I've read over the years about European taxes and am a bit put-off by the high overall tax burden of income taxes (36-60%) and VAT/sales taxes of around 20%. The countries with the lowest overall tax burdens appear to be Switzerland, Ireland, Luxembourg, Malta, Poland... I'm not just looking for the cheapest cost of living or lowest taxes, but there should be some balance between quality-of-life and cost-of-living and income. I understand that public health care, education and social services are often paid for by the high taxes. Yes, there are always compromises to make, and this will be a subjective matter. That's why I'm certainly willing to listen to reason.

[irman]

Originally Posted by jaytr

Southern Californians like myself

When I came to the USA in the early 60's (lots of space programmes going on then, and I was invited to come), I settled in Suddern Cali.

Originally Posted by jaytr

I like Scandinavia and Scandinavians,

Before I did my post graduate work, I did a stint in Sweden at Volvo. Really liked it there, but I was single then, and we (brown-faces) were rather popular ..... with the female sector then .... still have one after almost 40 years ... *wife* that is ....

Originally Posted by jaytr

I would very much like to hear more about child-friendly countries (in addition to our initial criteria). What do you mean by "child-friendly"? And are there some cities, in particular, that seem more family-friendly?

What I meant to convey was the fact that after living and working in several countries for extended times, we did notice different behaviour of the people regarding having a large family. As I illustrated in my previous post, we were refused housing (rentals) after they found out that we had 5 kids ....
So I tried again (friend called for me) and stated that we had 5 dogs.
There was no problem then .....
Also, you see more dogs in restaurants in Germany then young kids ....
Yes dogs are allowed in restaurants, at least where we lived.
Still we loved Germany, but then we lived in a rather small town in Bavaria, about 50 km from Muenchen.

Originally Posted by jaytr

I've read good things about Switzerland, so I'm surprised to hear you disliked it so much. Cost of living is high, but salaries are high, too, so if you can get a good, white-collar professional job, is it still a problem? We're accustomed to high cost of living (NYC), but the ratio is very important (i.e., income to cost-of-living to quality-of-life). We would live in the suburbs/semi-countryside, preferably, within reasonable distance to the city center.

What I did not like in Switzerland were the working ethics. The work I was involved in as a consultant and Technology Transfer Officer for some US Government Contracts, were a real pain in the butt. If you want to know more, shoot me a private message.
We were actively involved in Church there and we loved those people. Kind of close minded but that is just my personal opinion.
I kiddingly said to them that they thought that outside Basel, Geneve, and the St. Gotthart Tunnel, there was nothing ???? I also never learned their Swizza Duetsch. Pain in the butt again to try to listen to them ....
Money wise it was relatively well paid but our buying power compared to what I earned in Cali was well below what I was used to. Unless you earn 2.5 times what you earn in the States, you WILL loose buying power.
If you do settle there, prepare to pay a lot of (security payments) for every service you will apply for.
BTW, the minimum wage then (1991-1993) was about 13 dollars (Kurs exchange), my kids worked part time there and they went home with a wad of money ....
If you can stay/hold out long enough, you can earn a good nest egg. they have this interesting *multi Saule* retirement programme, plus if you stay even longer, the education system is rather good and free !!!
I just could not get along with their wortk ethics. Again, just my opinion !!!

Originally Posted by jaytr

Germany seems pretty nice--I liked the Germans I've met, and infrastructure is a marvel. Income/employment sounds good. Any cities you'd recommend? Holland is an interesting recommendation. Amsterdam is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to raise a family there. Any other cities in Holland?

Germany I already said something about above.
I recommend Bavaria. The Ruhr area .... uhmmm ....no !
Holland is a wonderful country when you have kids. There are so many things there that are kid oriented. I suggest the central part of Holland, east of Utrecht, all the way to Arnhem, wonderful landscapes. The *The Hague* area suburbs is also OK to live in (if you like big cities). We lived in Blaricum, a rather opulent rich area, but then I had the job to go with it ....

Originally Posted by jaytr

And what do you think of Luxembourg and Malta?

I only have visited Luxembourg, professionally and for pleasure. Expensive, smallish country, nice areas. No idea what it would be like to have a family there.
Malta, I only visited for pleasure ...once ....

Have to mention though that I am a polyglot and can speak every language we lived and worked in. Our kids NEVER went to American schools, but attended all the local schools, so they ended up as polyglots.
The result ... ??? They have bloody good jobs, being able to speak fluent at least 4 languages.

[Mooseketeer]

TOULOUSE.


Toulouse sounds like quite a good match for your requirements. Lovely city with a vibrant culture, lovely architecture, great museums, art galleries, great shopping, and in a lovely part of France. Perfect for travelling around France, getting to Spain etc...


Toulouse is supposed to have some great schools too ( it is fairly affluent generally speaking) and is a great place for kids.


Toulouse also sounds right in terms of weather for you, hot summers, warm spring and autumn and cold-ish but not really cold winter.


The South-West of France is such a lovely area so Toulouse is a perfect place to be to explore the Dordogne with its wonderful scenery, painted Prehistoric Caves, Medieval fortresses, Chateaux... Gascony , the Mediterranean, The Pyrenees and places like Biarritz and the South Western Beaches.... Pop in to Bordeaux and its vineyards for the day or a week-end skiing in the Pyrenees. Explore the Cathar Castles and enjoy the great Sand Dunes on the way to Biarritz...

Great public transport links ( the TGV, a great airport, motorways and a great network of roads) and easy to get to the rest of Europe very quickly.

Toulouse has quite a large British and American expat community as it is hugely popular with people .

It is a city full of character with a fairly young population ( it has a very good University) and has a wonderful Atmosphere. There are also quite a lot of foreign companies, banks who have settled there.

PM me if you need more info. I am French so might be able to help.

[pigeonhole]

Don't go there, especially if you're a bit on the Conservative side :Toulouse is a dump , believe me, I know the Pink City - Ville Rose-very well, a lot of agressive, drunk bums with German shepherds in the streets, dog crap everywhere ,a huge Arabic population, dangerous suburbs (Labeige, Empalot...), the center as crowded as Paris,a huge chemical factory -AZF- exploded in 9/2001-10 days after 9/11, killing 30 people and shattering glass in the whole city, and now the new Mayor is a Left-winger (a Socialist), it's the only place I've seen with youngsters wearing Satanic t-shirts with a reversed cross with the motto "Bad religion"..