Race In Latin America (to buy, live, law)

[Motion]

For anyone curious about how race plays itself out in some Latin American countries.



YouTube - Race and Racism in Latin America: Brazil - 25 Jul 08




YouTube - Race and Racism in Latin America: The Caribbean - 24 Jul 08

[jja100]

I can't stress this enough... Europe and South America are still very much class based societies and I believe it will always be despite the "equality" rhetoric that comes from all the "so called" left wing political parties that are so abundant amongst the nations here-said.

I found the second video especially intriguing. Isn't it ironic that during the times of slavery, these Africans had a job, food, and shelter. Now in our "free" and "progressive" society where slavery is abolished you have African descendants trying to hop borders just to do the same work their ancestors did for pay that may not even be enough to buy them sufficient food, shelter, or even guarantee that they will even maintain steady work. Sometimes you have to question whether slavery was really such a bad thing?

Warning** I am in no way advocating slavery. I am just postulating. Watch the videos and form your own conclusions, we want to hear them!

[Motion]

Originally Posted by jja100

I found the second video especially intriguing. Isn't it ironic that during the times of slavery, these Africans had a job, food, and shelter. Now in our "free" and "progressive" society where slavery is abolished you have African descendants trying to hop borders just to do the same work their ancestors did for pay that may not even be enough to buy them sufficient food, shelter, or even guarantee that they will even maintain steady work. Sometimes you have to question whether slavery was really such a bad thing?

Slavery was bad. No one should be able to own others. One problem with many of these countries is the economic and legal systems that their governments have adopted. Go with a market oriented economy combined with laws to support that such as property rights and anti discrimination laws then you'll see some real progress.

[gv0928]

It's not accurate at all to consider the racial ideals of Brazil and the Caribbean as representative of the entire region. It is well-known that both have extremely complex racial beliefs.

[gv0928]

Also, it's worth noting that Brazil and The Caribbean have large black populations, whereas most of South America has Amerindian populations.

Brazil has all three, the Caribbean has mostly black & white, with a tiny portion of Indians.

[Motion]

Originally Posted by gv0928

It's not accurate at all to consider the racial ideals of Brazil and the Caribbean as representative of the entire region. It is well-known that both have extremely complex racial beliefs.

I don't think anyone did that.

I said in the first post:

" For anyone curious about how race plays itself out in some Latin American countries."

That wasn't portraying these two countries as representing the whole Latin American region.

[jja100]

Originally Posted by Motion

Slavery was bad. No one should be able to own others. One problem with many of these countries is the economic and legal systems that their governments have adopted. Go with a market oriented economy combined with laws to support that such as property rights and anti discrimination laws then you'll see some real progress.

While we both agree that slavery is bad and that no one should be able to own others... the reality is do we as Americans and Europeans want to impose our social democracy on other nations thereby undermining their sovereignty?

Secondly, you can write as many laws as you wish but if you never develop a functioning judicial system to enforce them than the rule of law becomes worthless.

Thirdly, providing property rights to those that are not citizens and/or lack the capacity to purchase property means that the government should provide them with shelter as a human right. This is more along the lines of communism and goes against any market system which you previously proposed.

[Motion]

BBC NEWS | Business | Property rights to help Brazil's poor


Here's something from 03 on this. I'd like to see some current info to see how things are turning out in Brazil. Lula is considered a model leader of reform by many for Latin America.

[jtur88]

Originally Posted by Motion

Go with a market oriented economy combined with laws to support that such as property rights and anti discrimination laws then you'll see some real progress.

No place in the world have property rights been more vigorously applied than Latin America. The rich and powerful came in and grabbed ALL the property, and nobody tried to restrict or infringe those rights. With a few exceptions like Cuba, almost all the 20th century has been an absolutely market-based economy in Latin America, with US interests firmly entrenched, happily showing them how. Latin America has been a spectacular failure, thanks to market oriented economy and property rights.

And as for discrimination, every country in Latin American except Brazil had already abolished slavery when Americans were still fighting two wars to perpetuate slavery, and they abolished segregation before America did.

Before you keep on playing that mindless property-rights canard over and over and over and over again in your libertarian vacuum, look and see what people with property rights are doing to the Amazon basin rainforest and the people who live there..

[Motion]

^

Well for leaders of other Latin American countries. I'd suggest they be open to learning somethings from Brazil's Lula and Bachelet of Chile.

Brazil - Brazzil Mag - President Obama Hails Lula and Brazil for Leading by Example

"President Lula da Silva came up through the trade union movement, he was perceived as a strong leftist. Turns out, he was a very practical person who maintains relationships across the political spectrum in Latin America and has instituted all sorts of market reforms that have made Brazil prosperous."

"That points the way for other countries where the Democratic tradition is not as embedded as we would like it to be: respect for property rights, rule of law, all those things can lead to greater prosperity."

I support market reforms that are done a certain way. When it comes to expanding privatization for example I view Estonia and Poland of eastern Europe as being two countries that found approaches to privatization that didn't bring the corruption problems found in other post Soviet countries and Latin American countries during the 90's neoliberal reforms.

Privatisation in Estonia

http://knowledge.emory.edu/article.cfm?articleid=535