African Americans in France

[ckhthankgod]

Originally Posted by Thomas R.

Things are a bit different now. It's not far off to say black artists then, even non-famous ones, were seen as escaping a racist system. Many blacks still feel things are against them, and in some cases that might be true, but in polls blacks agree it is different now. I doubt French would be quite as proned to see a black person as escaping a "racist country" when it has a black President and a noteworthy "Congressional Black Congress." Granted ex-patriates like Tina Turner are celebrated in Europe today, but she was famous here first.

An analogous situation might be South Africa. Although I don't think she moved to the US for awhile Miriam Makeba was popular here, she was on Soul Train then much later the Cosby Show, and it's possible her being exiled from the Apartheid regime played a role. A black South African could maybe appear on American TV again, but it almost certainly wouldn't have the same meaning or impact.

Perhaps, but there are other Black artists that still get more love in europe than the US. For instance, one of my favorite music artists is Eric Roberson. Great music, but he only has a good following by Blacks and possibly others that are into "Neo-soul" music. In Europe, he has been on tour and is big in England. so, that might say something about how some Black artisits might have to be a certain way in order to get popularity in the US to this day. This is the same with some other similar artists as well.

[Thomas R.]

Yeah, but that can just be a matter of differing musical tastes. From what I can tell several "Rockabilly" musicians are more popular in Germany than America. Also several Wikipedia articles on "old-time" or "hillbilly" musicians were on German Wikipedia before I made English versions. I don't know if that means Germans are more accepting of Appalachian, or poor Southern, whites or not. "Instrumental rock" apparently remained popular in Japan long after it declined here or something as they loved "The Ventures." (On this I think the Japanese are right, instrumental rock can be great and I don't know why we abandoned it)

Maybe white America's disinterest in "Neo-Soul" says something racial, but I'm not sure.

[robertjohnson]

Originally Posted by Sudcaro

I can't believe what I'm reading!
Not all French are racists or narrow-minded people, fortunately!

Has nothing to do with this fellows paint job.
The french disdain all foreigners equally.

[Sudcaro]

I'd rather not answer any longer. But I'll just say that I feel insulted.

[BlueWillowPlate]

Originally Posted by MuscogeeButterfly

I've always heard, in the past, African Americans were welcome in France, often, idolized, i.e. Josephine Baker. How is the reception today?

My son's former boss (in France) is African-American and has been living there for quite a few years now. He seems content.
I think what J K K says might be true, a command of the language might matter more than the color of your skin, but simple courtesy goes a long way, too.

This stereotype about the disdainful French is almost laughable. There are jerks everywhere in the world, and if you go looking for them, you'll likely find them.

[Keks]

Originally Posted by robertjohnson

Has nothing to do with this fellows paint job.
The french disdain all foreigners equally.

Man, I knew it was wort reading this thread. LOL


"idolized" ? That is not true. Just like the myth David hasselhof is popular in Germany. It just ain't true. No idea about Josephine Baker, but I'm pretty sure that's just another myth.

[grmasterb]

Originally Posted by Keks

Just like the myth David hasselhof is popular in Germany.

Well, he did have a No. 1 song on the pop charts over there at one time, which is a ludicrous proposition here.

[Thomas R.]

Josephine Baker was largely idolized in France, but there are some facts about that idolization that maybe need elaboration.

French art had been interested for years in Africa and exoticism. Not all of this was totally enlightened. Some praised Africans for stereotypes similar to ones white Americans held. (That Africans or blacks were sexually adventurous and uncivilized.) Others might fit the Rousseauian notion of "noble savage." Josephine Baker likely appealed to that exoticism and she even owned a cheetah.

Related to that the French did not have the same "horror of miscegenation" as Americans, at least in principle, had. In art or culture I think the French generally felt freer to express the fact that a black person could get them hot and bothered. So they could be openly excited by an attractive black woman dancing topless whereas a white American of that era might feel any such excitement should be in private or peep show. That they could express their "excitement" over a black lady doesn't necessarily equate to totally enlightened racial views.

Now this mostly just explains her beginnings. As time went on she really did get respected. Possibly this is because she really was talented and her talent just blossomed there rather than here. She also gained another kind of acclaim in that she helped the Underground during the Nazi occupation. However several things made her unable to get success in America. Walter Winchell, as I recall, became viciously harsh to her. Certain clubs were segregated and she took public offense to treatment at the Stork's Club. I wouldn't say black entertainers of the time precisely accepted that, but I think many of them handled it a bit different than her. Also America is almost as much a religion as a nation and Baker was in some sense an apostate. (Reportedly even some African-Americans considered her "uppety")

[Fata Morgana]

Originally Posted by MuscogeeButterfly

Oh and uh, by the way, I've also heard, the French were very forgiving of, not so fluent French.

You'll meet some people more tolerant of it than others, but having lived in Paris, I would never say that they were "forgiving" of not so fluent French, let alone "very forgiving".

[Shizzles]

Originally Posted by Thomas R.

Josephine Baker was largely idolized in France, but there are some facts about that idolization that maybe need elaboration.

French art had been interested for years in Africa and exoticism. Not all of this was totally enlightened. Some praised Africans for stereotypes similar to ones white Americans held. (That Africans or blacks were sexually adventurous and uncivilized.) Others might fit the Rousseauian notion of "noble savage." Josephine Baker likely appealed to that exoticism and she even owned a cheetah.

Related to that the French did not have the same "horror of miscegenation" as Americans, at least in principle, had. In art or culture I think the French generally felt freer to express the fact that a black person could get them hot and bothered. So they could be openly excited by an attractive black woman dancing topless whereas a white American of that era might feel any such excitement should be in private or peep show. That they could express their "excitement" over a black lady doesn't necessarily equate to totally enlightened racial views.

Now this mostly just explains her beginnings. As time went on she really did get respected. Possibly this is because she really was talented and her talent just blossomed there rather than here. She also gained another kind of acclaim in that she helped the Underground during the Nazi occupation. However several things made her unable to get success in America. Walter Winchell, as I recall, became viciously harsh to her. Certain clubs were segregated and she took public offense to treatment at the Stork's Club. I wouldn't say black entertainers of the time precisely accepted that, but I think many of them handled it a bit different than her. Also America is almost as much a religion as a nation and Baker was in some sense an apostate. (Reportedly even some African-Americans considered her "uppety")

From what I've read and seen discussed, Rosseau is a big player in the thinking of many european elites. Much of Europe still subscribes to the "Noble Savage" thoughtprocess, and idolize African/Muslim culture for it's lack of "civilzation" (itself a very racist viewpoint) and in turn loathes it's own (white guilt).

As for France itself, A Hatian co-worker of mine said it best:

They love you to your face, and hate you behind your back. To visit is lovely, to live, not so much.

IMHO you can see this evidenced by how Franco-phone Africa has fared compared to Anglo-phone Africa in terms of development and mindset. But then again, as an African-American, you may be totally immune to all this due to history and the general "coolness" AA culture has across the globe.

I say go and enjoy, and tell us how it all goes. Italy may also be a good spot, especally in the south.