Why do so many Americans hate French people? (apartment, gated)

[hello-world]

Originally Posted by Moth

I am at a loss to find where anybody wants to "Americanize" Europe. How does one do that? What is it? America itself is an offshoot of Europe (it was founded by Europeans). So considering the obvious, the notion of Americanizing anything is not only impossible, but pretty daft. Does my collection of Beatles LPs or drinking Guinness constitute a "Europeanization"? Hell, most Americans are shocked to visit Europe and find McDonalds there with its legions of Europeans gulping down Big Macs.

As for the experience of war, Europeans might benefit from setting aside their movies and researching the American Civil War. Perhaps a visit to Antietam or Gettysburg might elucidate how the scars of war are very real over here. And then there are the thousands we have lost in WWI, WWII and other conflicts.

Finally, if Europe is that uncomfortable with the US, then they should end their formal alliance. 1) Leave the NATO Alliance, 2) Ask US forces to depart, 3) Declare neutrality.The proverbial put up or shut up. Anything less is just vapid posturing and not to be taken seriously. After all, even France is an American ally by treaty as well as tradition.

americanize other places by planting mcdonalds, starbucks, lockheed martin everywhere. open markets such that others consume for your profit. you don't have to want to do it, though of course many american corporations (and their employees) are more than happy for it to happen for obvious, just mentioned, reasons. and those others don't have to want it done - money and other influence can infiltrated without any immediate request for it, eh?

put up or shut up? please - if a people cannot indulge in some self critique (perhaps inspired in the perspectives of eyes outside of self), simply stewing in blind hubris, resting on laurels, that people will fall as has happened over and over again throughout our histories. france is an ally by treaty and tradition? i think you see as well as anyone that is a gross oversimplification that might sound as it derives from similar places in the human spirit as those driving previous, now fallen empires.

[Moth]

I see. All those McDonalds, Starbucks, etc are a grand conspiracy to take advantage of hapless sheep. That does not speak too well of a certain populace.

As for "Put Up or Shut Up", you misunderstood and are distorting the statement. It had nothing to do with self-critique. Indeed, it is criticism of France that has started a near riot here.

[thomas.cl]

Well I am German and there are many many french people I do not like, and again not every single one.

[hello-world]

Originally Posted by Moth

I see. All those McDonalds, Starbucks, etc are a grand conspiracy to take advantage of hapless sheep. That does not speak too well of a certain populace.

As for "Put Up or Shut Up", you misunderstood and are distorting the statement. It had nothing to do with self-critique. Indeed, it is criticism of France that has started a near riot here.

this is not an old arguement (concerning americanization of things, or the desire and attempt to do so). most of us are aware of the fact that corporate america (corporate anybody, generally, as it's probably not too far from human nature) will do what it can to get a foothold where ever it can. i'm not convinced i misunderstood or distorted your "put up or shut up", but of course feel free to shed some more light. either way, it seems clear that there is an array of reasons why americans are hated by so many, and why americans "hate" (or simply misunderstand) so many. for as long as we have difficulty getting past our own biases or face saving egos, e.g., (individual, personal, cultural, societal) towards attempted sight through the historical/cultural/etc eyes of others, it'll continue, perhaps ad infinitum in, ah, is it best to say "detrimental" ways?

[Moth]

this is not an old arguement (concerning americanization of things, or the desire and attempt to do so). most of us are aware of the fact that corporate america (corporate anybody, generally, as it's probably not too far from human nature) will do what it can to get a foothold where ever it can.

Which would include responding to consumer demand. A McDonalds or a Starbucks would not open in Paris, London or anywhere else unless there was demand. That demand encompasses Parisians, Londoners or other residents patronizing the place. Just as Americans buy European or Asian products. That is simple supply & demand economics and it’s a shame some choose to see it in nationalistic or conspiratorial terms. After all, McDonalds is just a purveyor of crappy food. Stop patronizing it if you do not like it. Or is there nothing absurd about people complaining about Americanization, which is still a nebulous concept at best, while eagerly lapping up anything and everything American?

i'm not convinced i misunderstood or distorted your "put up or shut up", but of course feel free to shed some more light

Referred to those who wish their nations to be no longer be allied with the US (NATO, ANZUS, etc) and/or dislike US forces on their soil. They should withdraw from any defense agreements, declare neutrality and require US forces to vacate. In short they should “put up or shut up.” Nothing more, nothing less. Its happened before and life went on.

either way, it seems clear that there is an array of reasons why americans are hated by so many, and why americans "hate" (or simply misunderstand) so many. for as long as we have difficulty getting past our own biases or face saving egos, e.g., (individual, personal, cultural, societal) towards attempted sight through the historical/cultural/etc eyes of others, it'll continue, perhaps ad infinitum in, ah, is it best to say "detrimental" ways?

Personally, when abroad, I usually follow the Golden Rule. Works for the most part.

[hello-world]

Originally Posted by Moth

Which would include responding to consumer demand. A McDonalds or a Starbucks would not open in Paris, London or anywhere else unless there was demand. That demand encompasses Parisians, Londoners or other residents patronizing the place. Just as Americans buy European or Asian products. That is simple supply & demand economics and it’s a shame some choose to see it in nationalistic or conspiratorial terms. After all, McDonalds is just a purveyor of crappy food. Stop patronizing it if you do not like it. Or is there nothing absurd about people complaining about Americanization, which is still a nebulous concept at best, while eagerly lapping up anything and everything American?

i agree there is some demand for american goods. and do you think that corporate power does not manipulate that "demand" which might not otherwise exist (e.g., via political or lobby-induced military maneuvers, etc.)? was there demand for disney world in france when it openned? is there demand in iraq for an american presence which, you might imagine, will result in plenty of starbucks and mcdonalds? is there demand for the pollution resulting in china (and around the world due to china's explosive growth) right now, or is there more of a feeling of a need to compete with the economic behemoth that is the US, e.g.? it seems to me that you have simplified the situation to "supply and demand", whereas there are much more subtle dynamics at play, the evidence would suggest.

Referred to those who wish their nations to be no longer be allied with the US (NATO, ANZUS, etc) and/or dislike US forces on their soil. They should withdraw from any defense agreements, declare neutrality and require US forces to vacate. In short they should “put up or shut up.” Nothing more, nothing less. Its happened before and life went on.

"our way or the highway; your choice" can ultimately work either way. would you like it to work that way towards yourself in the face of "obvious injustices"? if the world's opinion is that an injustice has been leveraged, might it not be wise to take a look at whether the accused perpetrator(s) of said "injustice" might very well be in the wrong? either way, individuals don't like being talked to that way, right? is it possible that the kind of gesture you suggest might be a one way ticket to an eventual series of, is it best to say, "countermeasures" that the gesturer might not like very much - that might "adjust" the gesturer's perspective, but perhaps a bit late?

[Moth]

i agree there is some demand for american goods. and do you think that corporate power does not manipulate that "demand" which might not otherwise exist (e.g., via political or lobby-induced military maneuvers, etc.)? was there demand for disney world in france when it openned? is there demand in iraq for an american presence which, you might imagine, will result in plenty of starbucks and mcdonalds

helloworld, we are talking about crappy hamburgers and why people on both sides of the pond like them. I am not going to descend into an endless discussion of free enterprise, advertising and Iraq of all things. The bottom line is McDs does well in Europe because people like it. Nobody manipulated your taste and nobody is putting a gun to your head. I have not been in a McDs in quite some time. I cannot be bothered to patronize them or even to care. I wish you lot the same level of self control.

"our way or the highway; your choice" can ultimately work either way. would you like it to work that way towards yourself in the face of "obvious injustices"?

You are once again deviating. I am simply saying that any American ally has the choice to pursue a policy more akin to Sweden, Switzerland, Finland or any other neutral country. I respectfully submit that when faced with the indisputable fact that your country and others can chart their own destiny whether it be junk food or foreign policy, you change the subject to avoid it facing the obvious.

[MovingForward]

Originally Posted by Mooseketeer

I have been puzzling over this for years now and can't really understand it.

As someone who has lived in France, on two occasions, I will share my own thoughts in response to your questions.

1) "I also heard all the jokes about the French being dirty, and arrogant and I can't quite reconcile this with the France I know."

Quite frankly, the body odor on the French subway is overwhelming. I had to explain to my educated French roommate what dental floss was. Before I left for France, my dentist warned me not to go to a French dentist because French dentistry is decades behind the times. I asked why and he said he had no idea, that in fact, nobody could figure it out; in his words, "It's not like modern dentistry is a secret." Maybe things have changed now?

2) "A lot of Parisians are rude and unhelpful that is true ( and as such are very much mocked and disliked by the rest of France) but then again so are a lot of New Yorkers or Bostonians and I have never for one assumed that meant all Americans were thus. I find people in the rest of France kind and helpful, generous and they generally have a good sense of humour."

I didn't find that Parisians were particularly rude and unhelpful (except for the police, who were thugs). I did find people in the south of France to be often rude, borné, and even obnoxious.

3) "Despite all its problems France still has the best (free) health care in the world, accessible to all ( according to the World Health organisation, not exactly known for its pro French bias) , free education and university, good social benefits ( such as paid leave, maternity leave etc...)and still manages to be more productive per hour than a US worker ( only outdone by the Norwegians)."

I strongly dispute that France has the best health care in the world. I've been through the French health care system, and since it's a socialized system, it's a one-size-fits-all approach to medicine, which can be quite dangerous. Nobody asked me for my medical history, and I was given treatment that was, in fact, dangerous, and which my American doctor ordered me to terminate immediately. In addition, the facilities were outdated, the medical personnel seemed completely uninterested, etc.

I have also spent time taking classes in a French university (at Nanterre). I can see why it's "free": the facilities, again, are run down; you can't check a book out of the library unless they have two copies of it; a lot of the students are there just because there's nothing much else to do (and why not?--as you say, it's free); there's no real teaching going on that i could see: at best, the professors just recited what was already in the textbook; another professor continually cancelled class because, as he explained at great length to us, he was "déprimé" (depressed); another professor spent the entire first day of class humiliating people (one woman was even crying); the food is atrocious; there's no real community among students.

Good social benefits come at a very high tax rate. Personally, I'd rather pay lower taxes and pay for my own benefits.

And, last I heard, American workers were the most productive, not the French. From another thread: FOXNews.com - Americans Are World's Most Productive Workers, U.N. Report Finds - Business And Money | Business News | Financial News

4) "Americans also seem to think the French hate them, IT'S NOT TRUE . Most French people actually really like Americans and love talking to them. If you speak a bit of French to them they open up and making an effort is almost always rewarded ( ask my not very good French speaking British partner of 18 years by a smile and a chat. They don't like American foreign policies but I'm afraid the hard truth is neither does most of the rest of the world. Sorry."

Sorry, but this is simply not true. The French DO hate Americans. They've mocked and hated us for over 200 years. Even today, for example, it is common for French people to tell Americans that we have "no culture." It has nothing to do with our "foreign policies." i am so sick of French people using this excuse. I agree that they have every right to hate our foreign policies under Bush, but that defense doesn't account for the previous 200 years of mockery and dismissal. I can't tell you how many times a French person, upon learning that I am American, takes it upon herself/himself to begin to launch into an assault on American culture--not foreign policy--culture. The French are obnoxious in their sense of superiority: they never shut up about "la gloire de la France," and they lose no time in making sure every American they meet acknowledge the inferiority of American culture and the superiority of French culture. What they mostly cannot understand at all is that Americans really don't give a flip what the French think, that we can go entire days without even thinking about France. Astounding, but true. They, on the other hand, are positively obsessed with Americans. It's bizarre, and it's why I haven't been to France in 4 years, and why I'm not going this year, either (despite my French friend's impatience for me to visit). Frankly, it's not worth it any more. The anti-Americanism is so strong and so pervasive, I've decided I'm no longer willing to spend thousands of dollars to visit a country whose citizens delight in tearing down me, my culture, and my country--all just for fun. No thanks. Sorry.

As for the Brits: I know nothing about them (other than my British friends here). I suspect, however, that the American-English relationship is far more strained than the American-Scottish or American-Irish or American-Welsh relationship. So I don't think it's a British thing, per se, but more of an English one. As far as I know, most Americans are used to the English snobbery where we're concerned. They've never quite gotten over 1776, so we forgive them.

[MovingForward]

Originally Posted by dullnboring

Somewhat related to this thread, I think Bill Maher had an interesting take on the anti-France attitude of many politicians.

Hilarious!

Originally Posted by Visvaldis

Could it be that many people who find the French to be rude and obnoxious go to France with that attitude, and try hard to look for examples to bolster the prejudice?

Could be. Not in my case, however. I was very excited to be moving to France, and tried to be friendly with everyone. If I had a dollar for every French person who decided--within 5 minutes of meeting me--that I was evil incarnate for being American. . . .

Originally Posted by Ambassadeur

I have been living in the United States since 1991.

I speak fluent French, have lived in the country twice, and am an educated person. The French are--far too often--obnoxious and rude towards Americans. Period. And it has NOTHING to do with our "foreign policy." And talk about feeling "compelled to comment or talk about everying, even if it's a subject about something they absolutely know nothing about": that's ALL they do!!!! I've never met so many people who've never been to the U.S. who seems to believe they know ALL about it! It's nothing short of amazing. I have a French friend who's been married to an American woman for about 20 years now. He goes home every year to see his family, and he tells me that they drive him positively batty with their ant-Americanism. They will make some grand pronouncement about how things are in the U.S. He will correct them (after all, he's lived here for 20 years), and they will shake their heads, waggle their fingers (big French thing to do) and say, no, he must be wrong, because they read it in "Le Monde." Blows his mind. I once read in "Le Monde" that Brown University was on the East Coast.

Visiting France is a WHOLE lot different than living there.

Originally Posted by Mooseketeer

Once again the French DO NOT hate Americans, they actually really like them. They disagree with some American foreign policies and some aspects of the culture but on the whole they do like you guys.

No, they don't. While there may be some French people who don't judge Americans, the vast majority of French people DO hate Americans and American culture. It's everywhere: on television, in the magazines, in the newspapers. Constantly. Everywhere. You simply cannot escape it. I have three "best friends"; one of them is French. Even she (and her husband) agree, and they are not happy about it.

[MovingForward]

Originally Posted by FrenchAmerican0721

I'm an American who was born and raised in America, but was raised in a French-speaking home as a young boy.

Just so you know: Most French people don't have the slightest education in American history, either.

Originally Posted by FrenchAmerican0721

You're right moth! I should clarify that statement.

Your assumption that a French person is only rude because an American is being rude is ridiculous. French people are constantly rude to Americans. I was absolutely stunned. I could make a list of the rudenesses I encountered. Here are just a few:

1) Go to Galeries Lafayette to buy perfume for a friend's birthday. i smile, say "Bonjour," etc. Two sentences leave my mouth and the woman says, very condescendingly, "I think we should speak English so that we can understand each other." Fine. I speak English. Only I speak it so fast that she can't keep up. Back to French. Funny: she has no problem understanding me.

2) Go to department store, try to pay with a traveler's check, cashier (knitting) says no, she won't take it. Even though the store accepts traveler's checks and has accepted them on other occasions.

3) Go to post office to ask for mailing box (this is in Avignon). Am told that the p.o. doesn't sell those, that i have to go to the stationery store. Where is that? On the other side of Avignon. Okay. No problem. i go to the stationery store. Am told that only the p.o. sells those boxes. i say but the p.o. told me to come here. Everybody laughs. Stupid American.

4) Try to give change. The cashier holds out her hand. When I put the change out, she drops her hand, the money spills everywhere. Everybody laughs. Stupid American.

5) University library. Go to turn in an overdue book, apologize and ask what the fine is. Librarian starts screaming at me--in front of everybody--that i'm just a "typical American," that i think I can just buy my way out of everything (yeah, right, that's why I've got $40,000 in student debt, because I'm just so damned rich).

6) On the subway (by this time, I've lived there a year): 5 subway employees stop me and tell me that I need to pay more money (which, of course, they will pocket) because i'm on the "wrong train." I just pretend I don't know French, speak English and they go away--but not before making jokes (in French) about idiotic Americans.

I could go on and on. And lest you think I'm some kind of negative person who goes around with a scowl on her face, let me assure you: i was (initially) very happy to be in France (I went to the trouble to learn their language, after all) and tried to be friendly with everyone. They just weren't having it. I'm sorry if that upsets the French people on this thread, but reality is reality. And as I said, even my French friends concede that the anti-Americanism is now over-the-top and pervades the culture.

Originally Posted by MovingForward

I speak fluent French, have lived in the country twice, and am an educated person.

Correction: "Le Monde" printed that Brown was on the West Coast. It IS on the East Coast.