Orwellian Europe in the making (agreement, government, German)

[Neuling]

Today the Irish accepted the Lisbon treaty, yet another step towards the USE. Some of the people interviewed said quite clearly that the only reason they voted yes this time around was the bad economy. (Ireland has been hit hard by the crisis.)

[arctichomesteader]

Originally Posted by Neuling

Today the Irish accepted the Lisbon treaty, yet another step towards the USE. Some of the people interviewed said quite clearly that the only reason they voted yes this time around was the bad economy. (Ireland has been hit hard by the crisis.)

Well that's how every tyrannical government gets its way in, when people are desperate they'll do things they never would do otherwise.

[kevxu]

Originally Posted by arctichomesteader

Well that's how every tyrannical government gets its way in, when people are desperate they'll do things they never would do otherwise.

I don't see anything that should be labelled "tyrannical" in the provisions of the treaty. If the EU functions more smoothly - great! I don't see any serious erosion of national sovreignties involved.

However, the Czechs may yet screw it up. And toss 'em out if they do.

[Geography Freak]

Originally Posted by kevxu

It looks like something to be concerned about; however, take note that you are reading it in the Telegraph....and like so many English newspapers, it regularly prints rumor, exaggeration, scare-mongering, etc. as news. I'd wait until it's written about in a more credible place.

Well I think English broadsheets are as credible as any other newspaper. Of course they don't have the self-righteous pretensions of neutrality that make the New York Times or the Washington Post so turgid, but I personally prefer it that way. It's more honest, at least you know the score. If you're reading the Telegraph you know you're reading a conservative newspaper, and if you're reading the Guardian you know you're reading a left-wing newspaper.

[arctichomesteader]

Originally Posted by kevxu

I don't see anything that should be labelled "tyrannical" in the provisions of the treaty. If the EU functions more smoothly - great! I don't see any serious erosion of national sovreignties involved.

However, the Czechs may yet screw it up. And toss 'em out if they do.

Speaking of Orwellian, double speak....

Yeah, there's nothing tyrannical about unelected people, unaccountable to the people, bureaucrats, making decisions equivalent to law for multiple countries, nothing tyrannical about elitists sending rejected treaties to a vote over and over again until it finally passes, saying it will be done regardless of rejection, and there's nothing resembling erosion of national sovereignty when countries are turned into one union. Incrementalism is how this has been done, how it will continue, and you are evidently either blind to it, or a lover of it. It began with just trade and has grown to a political union. This is actually how the U.S. became one country. It started out as multiple countries (states) all independent after the Declaration of Independence, under the Articles of Confederation they remained mostly independent, and it progressed to the Constitution which made it one country. Vermont was the last holdout as an independent state after the Revolution until it joined the Union. It went more rapidly in the U.S. but the same thing is happening in the EU. And such large countries inevitably become tyrannical and no single group of people is able to stop it. This is a modern day empire, and empires are never truly free. May your chains rest lightly upon you. I pity those who see the EU for what it is but were unable to stop it. History will absolutely prove who the villains are here.

[Neuling]

I think every European country should have the right to overrule any European laws and decisions made outside its territory. Decisions and laws that make sense in Germany or Belgium don't have to make sense in Portugal or France.

[kevxu]

Originally Posted by arctichomesteader

Speaking of Orwellian, double speak....[rant deleted]

Thank you, that was a wonderful example.

[GregW]

IMHO the principal reason for "uniting" Europe was to make the banking easier for the gnomes in Zurich. This is all part of the financialization of the world. This has been set back by the real estate value collapse in several countries including the United States. Like political Empires all financial bubbles collapse sooner or later.

[effie g-tad]

Originally Posted by arctichomesteader

The EU is just another power and money grab by the "elites" disguised yet again as something to help the people. It would appear based on the various votes that the European people haven't completely fallen for it, but the elites are quite determined to force it on you.

this sums it up best, imho.
you need to know the vested interests as they are now pitted against each other in a globalized economy going against all human nature.

there seems no more "independent" thinking possible. reason has been rationalized (and rationed, too).

[Neuling]

I just read about a new agreement between the European Union and the US. It will allow US officials to access all data on financial transactions within Europe. When anyone transfers money to anyone else, Washington can access the amount transfered, the sender and receiver, their addresses, ID numbers and other personal data etc.
The scary thing is that this agreement will be OKed without the national parliaments' or even the EU parliament's approval. In order to do that the EU ministers scheduled the decision one day before the Lisbon treaty takes effect because that treaty would enable parliament to have a greater say in such things. It is also amazing how they managed to keep this out of the media until now, they know this might have caused serious trouble and anti-EU feelings among Europeans. The contents of the agreements have not been officially published yet.

I guess it is about time we returned to cash only.