Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Writing
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 02-10-2011, 10:08 PM
 
23,589 posts, read 70,358,767 times
Reputation: 49216

Advertisements

DW is going nuts over this sentence she received in an email. I have an idea how I would clean it, but what is the proper grammar to express what is being expressed?

She specifically wants to know whether the plain "decided" is more correct than "has decided" and what rules pertain to this.

"The day after we sent that invitation, we heard that X group has decided to expand their Friday group to two times a month, just as they used to have it."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-11-2011, 05:34 AM
 
Location: PNW
682 posts, read 2,422,358 times
Reputation: 654
Here is the technical explanation:
What we're looking at here is "aspect," or how events are distributed through time. When we think of *tense, we usually just look at past, present, and future. In reality, because of aspect we are able to indicate whether an action is a single occurrence, a repeated or habituated occurrence, continuing or terminated, etc.

Examples:
I eat a sandwich for lunch.
I am eating a sandwich for lunch.
I have eaten a sandwich for lunch.


These are all technically "present" tense, but the meaning is different between each sentence because the aspect is different.

*You will hear verbal aspect described as "tense," but that is not really correct since you can combine them, and it doesn't make sense to have different tenses occurring in the same clause for the same verb. That is, a verb can't be both present and past tense at the same time. It can however, be continuing or completed.

Perfect aspect: expresses the completion of an action or event with respect to some reference point in time. The action of the verb is complete at the time of the reference point.

Construction: "have" + "-ed" or "-en" (e.g. have walked, have eaten)

Past Perfect: has a reference point that is prior to the present moment.
She had walked the dog.

Present Perfect: the reference point is in the present (i.e., the time when the sentence is spoken).
She has walked the dog.

Future Perfect: has a reference point in the future.
She will have walked the dog.

Progressive aspect: also specifies a reference point in the past, present or future, but the action of the verb is in progress at the time of the reference. In other words, the action begins before the reference point and continues beyond the reference point for an unspecified amount of time. (i.e., began in the past and continued).

Construction: "to be" + "-ing" (e.g., I am walking)

Past Progressive: the reference point and moment of continuation are in the past, prior to the moment of speaking.
She was walking the dog.

Present Progressive: the action continues through the present moment.
She is walking the dog.

Future Progressive: the action will begin and continue into the future.
She will be walking the dog.

Perfect Progressive aspect: basically combines the other two, indicating continuing action that was completed at the time of the reference point. (i.e., began in the past, continued, then completed).

Construction: "have" + "been" + "-ing" (e.g, I have been walking)

Past Perfect Progressive: the reference point, moment of continuation and completion are in the past, prior to the moment of speaking.
She had been walking the dog.

Present Perfect Progressive: the action began, continued and completed up to the present moment.
She has been walking the dog.

Future Perfect Progressive: the action will begin, continue and complete at some point in the future.
She will have been walking the dog.


So on to your sample sentence:
"The day after we sent that invitation, we heard that X group has decided to expand their Friday group to two times a month, just as they used to have it."

"We heard that X group has decided...." This event (the deciding) technically occurred before the invitation was sent out, so it was completed in the past. -->Hmm....sounds a lot like past perfect.

It should read "we heard that X group had decided..."

I'm not sure of a good way to explain this, but it is only past perfect because of the way it's tied to the first clause. "The day after we sent that invitation" basically established a timeline of events and the reference points for the rest of the sentence.

If you separate the clauses into two sentences (severing the tie, so to speak) it doesn't sound as awkward:
"We sent out the invitations. Then we heard that X group has decided to expand...."

Another option: "After sending out the invitations, we heard that X group has decided to expand." By putting "sending" in the sentence, it brings the first clause into the present, which then matches the reference point in the second clause.

Ultimately plain "decided" would have been better than "has decided," because it is simple past and would have matched the preceding clause (which was also past tense).

I hope this made sense (it's very late, and I'm obviously an insomniac )

Last edited by figmalt; 02-11-2011 at 05:47 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-11-2011, 06:24 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
3,336 posts, read 6,939,563 times
Reputation: 2084
"The day after we sent that invitation, we heard that X group has decided to expand their Friday group to two times a month, just as they used to have it."

OP is right, use "had decided" or just "decided." I like the simplicity of plain old past tense. It isn't a good sentence in any case, very awkward.

i think the author is, in his/her mind, directly passing on what s/he "heard." Perhaps a representative of X Group said something like - "X Group has decided to expand..." and the author of the bad grammar sentence was just relaying what they heard more or less verbatim. This doesn't make it right, but if s/he was writing quickly, that might be why s/he made sort of an odd grammar mistake. I call it odd because most people have a fairly solid intuitive grasp of the perfect aspects.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-11-2011, 05:25 PM
 
23,589 posts, read 70,358,767 times
Reputation: 49216
hi figmalt. Thanks for your succinct, clear explanation. I make most of my grammatical choices based on 'feel' and 'sound'. It is wonderful to know the nuts and bolts of the have-has-hads, beens, wills and -ings holding our talk together.
Chickpea's DW, Moonlace.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-12-2011, 01:15 AM
 
Location: un peu près de Chicago
773 posts, read 2,630,183 times
Reputation: 523
Use the past perfect if the group decision were made before you sent the invitation (and you were unaware that the decision had previously been made); use the present perfect if the decision were made after you mailed the invitation. I don't think the simple past is correct.

Here is a practice exercise ➔ ENGLISH PAGE - Verb Tense Exercise 12
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Writing
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:08 PM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top