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Originally Posted by cpg35223 I stand by my definition. Nothing ignorant about it. A 'true' artist, whatever the heck that means, has an idea to get across to another person. Until then, no dice. Without an audience, a would-be artist is just a daydreamer, a person playing around, whether it is words, oils, or a musical instrument.
In what category would you place those who receive posthumous recognition and an appreciative audience?
I'm not trying to be contentious, I was actually thinking more of Grandma Moses, some of the Outsider artists, and some fabric artists. Even though I can't think of any right now, I'm sure there are some writers who also ended up being published after their death, and were well-received. I mean writers who weren't published during their lifetimes, not those who continue to be popular after they've died.
I'm not trying to be contentious, I was actually thinking more of Grandma Moses, some of the Outsider artists, and some fabric artists. Even though I can't think of any right now, I'm sure there are some writers who also ended up being published after their death, and were well-received. I mean writers who weren't published during their lifetimes, not those who continue to be popular after they've died.
I realize you're not being contentious, and I enjoy an exchange of ideas. You raise a good point, although Grandma Moses may not be the best example, for she was began painting in her 70s and then achieved almost instant notoriety as a folk artist. Her work was exhibited in the United States, Europe and Japan in her lifetime, and was used in national advertising and even on Hallmark Cards while she was alive. Other outsider artists such as Howard Finster received a great deal of fame, even to the point of painting a Talking Heads cover. That being said, in the literary world, even a famously reclusive poet such as Emily Dickinson had around a dozen of her poems published during her lifetime, even though almost all her fame accrued after her death.
The only unpublished writer I really recall who got posthumous recognition was John Kennedy Toole, the author of A Confederacy Of Dunces. However, that doesn't count because he killed himself from despair after multiple rejections by publishers. Only because his mother incessantly badgered Walker Percy with his shopworn manuscript was a towering work of 20th Century humor ever published. Other than that, I am hard pressed to think of a writer who kept his writings secret, only to have them unearthed, recognized for their value and published after his death. I mean, who knows? Maybe J. D. Salinger has written ten novels since Franny and Zooey, but just hasn't cared to publish them.
thank you for this coyoteskye, so good to have this presented, it is a breath of fresh air, the quiet song in the wilderness, the tone that resonates as truth in the still silent center
Emily Dickinson ... I was going to mention her. Didn't she write many of her poems on scraps of paper which she 'hid' around her home, or is that some sort of myth? Anyway, in either case, I'd consider her a writer along with anyone else who writes and doesn't share his or her work. There are so many layers to the word 'writer' that it's a difficult point to argue.
Emily Dickinson ... I was going to mention her. Didn't she write many of her poems on scraps of paper which she 'hid' around her home, or is that some sort of myth? Anyway, in either case, I'd consider her a writer along with anyone else who writes and doesn't share his or her work. There are so many layers to the word 'writer' that it's a difficult point to argue.
But she had at least a dozen poems published during her lifetime, so it's not exactly right to say that she didn't seek publication.
Okay. This is a thread that is not about snobbery. It's not a thread that's trying to divide working writers from the wannabes. However, it is a kick in the pants, a bit of tough love if you will.
I am a writer. A freelance writer. Mostly advertising (Which can be highly creative, thanks. I don't write car dealer ads where the guy threatens to eat a live bug on television). I also write a lot of magazine articles. I have had one novel published several years ago (Which I refuse to lay claim to. It's a really crappy book and I have the honesty to admit it), another agented one bouncing around a publisher's office, and a third in the works. I earn my living with words, and make excellent money doing so.
Yet I recently returned from a writers conference that was absolutely swarming with people who claimed to be writers, but had never written anything beyond a note to their son's elementary school teacher. If you've ever been to a writer's conference, you know the type. They pepper the speakers with inane questions such as 'Where do you get your story ideas?' or--even worse--'How much money do you make off your novels?' Trust me, the 20% of people who are actually writers at those conferences roll their eyes at those questions.
Hey, we all started somewhere. We were all newbies at one time or another. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. And those of us who actually write for a living, no matter what form it takes, understand how hard it is to get started. So if you've managed to get a couple of things sold, even if it's the shortest article in the history of mankind, even if it's a joke you sold to Reader's Digest for $25, then you're a colleague.
What concerns me here are the perpetual newbies. The ones who are in love with the idea of being writers, but won't get off their butts to actually be writers. The aforementioned writers conference, a modest affair, has the same people year after year asking the same questions, but those people never seem to be moving forward on their craft.
In the interesting of HELPING, let me offer some hard questions to ask yourself.
Have you written more than a handful of notes in the past year?
If you actually have something underway, has it progressed at all in the past year, or is the file just sitting on your word processor?
Have you actually submitted something, anything in the past year? By that I don't mean a novel manuscript, but anything, even an article for the local interest magazine.
If you are attending writer's conferences, are you submitting anything to be critiqued? Or are you just content to sit in lectures listening to writers talk about how great it is to be a writer?
Do you have other people read your stuff? By that, I'm not talking about your spouse, your mother, or your best friend, but rather other writers who will tell you their honest opinions.
Do you have umpteen different books on writing on your shelf? Typically speaking, the first book you read on the subject is a revelation. The second one will usually fill in the gaps that the first one did not cover. But after the third or fourth book, you're stalling.
Did you buy The Writers Market before you had anything to sell?
If you're answering YES to any of these things, here's what I would gently offer to help you out.
-- Write. Every. Day. Even if you're just scribbling random thoughts in a journal. Turn off the idiot box. Get up thirty minutes early. Whatever it takes. But a writer doesn't just think about writing. He writes. Spend thirty minutes a day writing, and you'll be amazed at the sheer volume of stuff you generate over the course of a year.
-- Write for the love of it, not the money. I read somewhere that there are 200 writers in the United States who actually live off their books. That means that, the day after your 20 copies from the publisher arrive on your doorstep, you will probably go back to your job at the bank or the Social Security Administration. But that's okay, because you're in this to have your stuff read, right?
-- If you're going every year to a writer's conference and attending the same seminars every year, then you're in a rut. Change your emphasis from podium-centered conferences to critique-based conferences.
-- Network. Talk to other aspiring writers. Take a more established writer to lunch. Learn what they did.
-- Join a critique group. After you've really polished your writing, put it in front of people who are excellent editors. Yes, it's painful. But so is the aftermath of your first session with a trainer, too.
-- Hit up publications for small writing assignments. Articles. Whatever. Anything to get your writing chops (And a by-line). Trust me. When you couple of pubs start using you, it gets a lot easier to sell yourself to others.
I hope I didn't touch any nerves with this thread. All I'm trying to do is level with you in hopes that you'll move forward and fulfill your most cherished aspiration of seeing your name in print and having total strangers react to it in a positive fashion. Hope this helps.
No nerves touched here. I am an aspiring writer. I actually wrote a couple children's books and sent them out to agents, but so far I've only received rejection (it's a cruel world out there ). Anyway, I felt I needed to express myself in some way, so I've started my own blog (I personally think this counts). I'm also a member of the SCBWI - great critique groups and online resources.
Just wanted to add my two cents that you've provided some food for thought and great advice.
No nerves touched here. I am an aspiring writer. I actually wrote a couple children's books and sent them out to agents, but so far I've only received rejection (it's a cruel world out there ). Anyway, I felt I needed to express myself in some way, so I've started my own blog (I personally think this counts). I'm also a member of the SCBWI - great critique groups and online resources.
Just wanted to add my two cents that you've provided some food for thought and great advice.
Some of those rejection letters are a hoot. I've gotten plenty for my poetry - and gotten some published as well - but the one I got a biggest charge out of was a three page critique of a 10 line poem. Not only was it three pages, it was typed and single spaced! The editor concluded that she really liked it, but it had a different focus than what they were looking for. I used to save every one, but lost them all when my house burned.
Some of those rejection letters are a hoot. I've gotten plenty for my poetry - and gotten some published as well - but the one I got a biggest charge out of was a three page critique of a 10 line poem. Not only was it three pages, it was typed and single spaced! The editor concluded that she really liked it, but it had a different focus than what they were looking for. I used to save every one, but lost them all when my house burned.
Early in my career, I got one that simply said, "Dear Sir: We're not interested. Good luck in your career." But when somebody goes to the trouble of giving you an answer like the one you got, it's almost as good as an acceptance. It gives you permission to say, "Wow, I don't suck after all," something every writer needs to say to himself every once in a while.
Early in my career, I got one that simply said, "Dear Sir: We're not interested. Good luck in your career." But when somebody goes to the trouble of giving you an answer like that, it's almost as good as an acceptance. It gives you permission to say, "Wow, I don't suck after all," something every writer needs to say to himself every once in a while.
What annoyed me were the ones that had boxes to check: we aren't accepting new work at this time, we aren't interested, doesn't meet our needs, etc. Then there were the ones that said 'we only accept manuscripts from agents.' Of course, getting an agent without first being published is a whole different problem.
Some of those rejection letters are a hoot. I've gotten plenty for my poetry - and gotten some published as well - but the one I got a biggest charge out of was a three page critique of a 10 line poem. Not only was it three pages, it was typed and single spaced! The editor concluded that she really liked it, but it had a different focus than what they were looking for. I used to save every one, but lost them all when my house burned.
An old friend of mine (40+ years ago) pasted his rejection letters to his bathroom walls. His bathroom walls were nearly covered when he skipped town without saying good-bye to anyone. Maybe he just needed to start afresh in a new bathroom. I didn't see him again for nearly 10 years and haven't seen him since then.
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). Anyway, I felt I needed to express myself in some way, so I've started my own blog (I personally think this counts). I'm also a member of the SCBWI - great critique groups and online resources.
