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janb sounds like a very seasoned real estate owner/investor; but I'd bet that most of those 19 transactions took place close to home.
I think it's a lot different when you're far away from your home base to locate properties seller direct. Historical means (foreclosures, tax lien sales, death notices, retirement notices, local "newsy" paper with mention of assisted living moves of old timers) of locating distress properties have attracted many qualified investors to WY's booming (and highly speculative) housing economy.
Add in the mix the local realtors with billboard and print advertising that they'll "buy your place for cash in 24 hours".
WY is a non-reporting state. That means the only people who will know a sale price are the buyer/seller/lender/title company and any realtor or lawyer involved in the transaction. The county assessor's office receives a confidential report from the buyer used to compile values for land and housing that year.
So, it's very difficult to know ... unless you're an active, local agent ... what properties are actually selling for in any given WY area. Gives a huge advantage to the local knowledgeable people in the real estate market over folks from out of the area.
Many rural areas don't have an active "multi-list", either. Realtors may have an "exclusive right to sell" listing and a low co-op split comission, a disincentive to another agent to show the other's listing. You must visit each realty office to find out all the properties for sale in an area.
Unless they've got an actual working relationship with a realtor in Buffalo, a Cheyenne realtor is 300 miles away from the Buffalo action. Please remember that a WY realtor's legal obligation is solely to the seller (who pays them their fee), and not the buyer. So a realtor in Cheyenne is unlikely to be of true service to you, an out of state buyer .... except to give you a name of a realtor in Buffalo.
In response to the seller/realtor responsibility the above is not true. A realtor is required to give to any prospective client a "brokerage disclosure form". This explains the relationship that the broker has with the client. A realtor can be a seller's agent, buyer's agent, dual agent/intermediary. We have bought many properties and have had a realtor who was our buyer's agent. Their legal obligation was to us. We have also never used any agent who would only show us properties that their office has listed. I want an agent who will show me everything that I might be interested in. Also, an agent in Cheyenne can refer you to an agent in another town.
MHT, I'm happy that you've enjoyed your good realtor relationship, and I hope that your experience was actually in Wyoming.
By way of background, I've been a real estate investor in residential and commercial properties for many years in Colorado. Enough trading that I got a real estate license there solely to facilitate my own deals. I've appreciate the difference that a qualified, capable, knowledgeable and motivated broker can make in locating properties and effective deal-making; we've both made a good bit of money as a result.
So, when I report that most Wyoming realtors are inept, incompetent, lazy, unknowledgeable about their product people, I'm speaking from experience and a professional viewpoint. That assessment will probably offend a whole bunch of people here who've made a lot of money on comissions, but it's a fact and from my personal experience.
Especially in the small towns, most realtors regard listing/marketing services as just a local commodity service. It's been a sideline to their other "real" business. Real estate is about found money that just falls into their lap because they've got a license and an office in a booming economy.
Most folks don't comprehend how simple a real estate transaction can be, so they believe in the complex fog of mystery about the process of marketing and a deal which the realtors perpetuate.
You may be able to get "buyer's" representation in one of the larger markets in Wyoming where a multi-list is reasonably functional. But in the smaller markets the agents will be primarily responsible to the seller in any instance in the real world of dealing, despite any "dual agent" contract status.
I can tell you that I've had 20 years of experience traveling WY and going into local real estate offices to inquire about a property or seeking one that meets certain parameters. I've always identified myself upfront as capable, qualified, and ready to do a deal instead of beating around the bush. I seek properties only in a price range I can afford. Carry a lender commitment letter. Have a good credit rating. Can draft funds immediately for a deposit or a deal in my price range.
I can't remember how many times WY realtors have shown me information on only the listings they've got in their office. Or how reluctant they've been to tour a property, if at all. They'll give me directions based on local landmarks they might even know which are baffling to someone from out of the area.
We've driven 80 miles to check out a place and they didn't bother to get the keys or lockbox info. I can't tell you how many will not tell you about a property (because they don't know, don't want to know, or don't want to disclose) and can't give you water, productivity, or any real information about the quality or condition of buildings, structures, equipment, or machinery which may be a great portion of the value (and asking price) of the property. It's like ... what YOU SEE is WHAT YOU GET, buyer beware and that's it.
I've traveled great distances to keep an appointment with a realtor to see a property. Had them show up late to their office ... delayed at lunch or some personal errand. No apologies, they sauntered in and started checking their messages or emails ... for another 30 minutes ... important stuff, like what they were going to do for dinner or their neighbor just got a new dog. Finally got a few minutes of their time and they hadn't previewed the property and couldn't answer basic questions about it. What a waste of our time!
From first-hand experience with some deals and properties that were grossly screwed up, I can tell you that your realtor isn't your friend in this state the minute he's got his comission in hand.
Customer service and professional ethics are foreign concepts around here. Most country realtors are your competitor when it comes to buying a property. If they find a seller willing to list at a very favorable price, the realtor will purchase the place for themself and then re-sell it as the owner.
You do not have to be in a larger market to have a buyer's agent. I know this as I am in Wheatland and have used an agent here as a buyer's agent - more than once. We have no multi-list. You are correct in one statement however - WY is a "buyer beware" state.
I am sorry that you have had such a bad time with realtors. Not all are like the ones you have experienced - they just give the rest a bad name. We have found that you just have to keep looking until you find one that you can work with and is willing to work with you. When we lived in MT we bought and sold numerous ranches, homes, land. We looked until we found an agent that was great! We used him on every purchase and sale. He referred us to the agent we used here in WY.
I'm also sorry that you seem to have such a poor view of WY. WOW. I am not a native. I grew up in north central MT. My husband is also from MT. We choose to live here - weather, realtors and all. I don't think that you should generalize.
I wonder if part of your experience has been the CO thing. Natives here (at least where I live) tend to not think very highly of people from CO - just like MT thinks of people from CA.
I wonder if part of your experience has been the CO thing. Natives here (at least where I live) tend to not think very highly of people from CO - just like MT thinks of people from CA.
Maybe I should move to Wy first, then if I move to MT, I can tell them I'm from Wy.
MHT, I'm thrilled that you've found a realtor who does a professional job for you.
But, MHT, I've never said that I don't like Wyoming.
Quite the contrary, I love it here and have made it my home. I intend to retire on my farm/ranch here in spite of owning resort property elsewhere. I've invested in commercial real estate here and depend upon it for my livilihood. I am deeply committed and invested here.
But, in the context of this forum, I'm candid enough to relate some of the problems that others might find as I have.
Wheatland happens to be one of the towns where I've had my worst experiences with realtors.
As I have some friends who've used a Wheatland "buyers agent" and purchased property that was totally misrepresented as to condition and habitability, I don't put much faith in the "buyers agent" relationship in Wyoming.
I could go into the details and name names, but that's not the point here.
What's important is that my first hand experiences have been less than professional and highly disappointing as a capable, motivated, and qualified buyer.
People coming here from other real estate markets may have problems that are unheard of in a more competitive service market. They should be forwarned that the level of real estate competency is less than they might expect and rely upon from licensed professionals.
I'd also mention that one should be very careful about the local lenders you favor with your business.
I arranged a good deal on a commercial property in Cheyenne which was in a non-performing loan distress situation. I went to a highly recommended locally owned bank that was known to deal with the type of property I was trying to buy.
Everything went great, the VP was thrilled with my financial ability and that I was helping to save a prominent local from a loosing financial situation. We scheduled a closing date, and I even started to clean up the place and begin operations (with the seller's consent) before the closing.
Two days before the closing, a bank secretary calls me up and advises that the closing is not going to take place. Many calls later, I find out the reason is that loan approval has been denied by another VP at the bank. At this point, I have a large non-refundable earnest money deposit at stake, plus time and investment to put the place back on it's feet ... all to the benefit of the seller if I can't close.
So I go down to the bank to find out the problem. Get a big run-around from all the folks there, who will only communicate with me through the receptionist. I demand to know what the problem is and threaten that my next stop is the federal authorities if they don't work with me .... something is really fishy. They finally give me a message that I don't qualify for the loan, no further explanation given.
I demand to know how it is at this late point that I don't qualify for the loan. Finally, under threat again of calling in the fed's, the VP relays a note to me that my application doesn't show enough cash flow independently of the property to make the mortgage payments. Previously, they had been quite satisifed with my financials and business plan.
What they did not know was that I didn't reveal all of my financial ability to them on the application. I gave them only enough resources to cover the deal as structured from the outset. So, I asked them how much more income I needed to show them to make the deal work. The question went to the issue of how much ability I needed to have to keep them comfortable.
The answer, ultimately given the day before the close, was that no amount of independent income would be adequate. They were telling me at this point that they didn't want to do the deal under any circumstance.
I found out later that the non-performing loan was in the repo file of the VP I had originally been dealing with at the bank. The whole deal was scuttled because another VP saw the price that I was buying the property at (balance of an aged loan, much less than it's FMV) and wanted the place for himself at that low price.
Those of you who know banking know that this was highly unethical. But the VP, the owners, and the bank's lending committee all were willing to do it for him. They were dancing very close to criminal activity.
Fortunately, I was able to get an extension on the closing date from a very good-hearted seller and locate another bank willing to do the deal at a better interest rate and terms then I'd originally secured.
Since I don't want to run afoul of any slander, I won't name names here. But I will tell you that it's a very prominent family owned local bank with two branches here in Cheyenne that tried to screw me.
In my opinion, those of you relocating here from out of the area would be well advised to have an established banking relationship with a national bank so you can transfer your business here and have a line of credit, mortgage banker, etc, already lined up. Once here, if you find a locally owned bank you're comfortable with, then you might be able to do business.
2 cents. Ka-Ching!
Ah, Being in Colorado is akin to being in the civilized world. In much of WY, what's said is accurate, i.e., most RE agents get a license as something to do to get by - others get a hair-styling cert. Most RE folks here in WY have never read "Three Magic Words" by U.S. Anderson or even "Think and Grow Rich". They don't learn the concepts for the most part that ... say, California RE folks do. There is usually not quite enough competition to cause them to open their eyes to that big ol' picture - nor to be aware of what other realtors have listed. Just not that kind of game in these parts. Same with bankers - many don't have some fancy degree from somewhere - they started as a kid at a part-time job and one day ended up being president of a bank. So, while some folks in all fields have the required degrees, training and experience - there's just not enough people statewide to make WY like CO. So many towns are land-locked and family owned that properties even being available is kind of a newer concept. Whoops, my 2 cents has expired.
p.s.(I really like Buffalo!)
Last edited by RockyMtnr; 01-09-2007 at 05:04 PM..
Reason: to tie into original thread
Only problem is, work. Not a lot of jobs there. If you can find one, you're in seventh heaven. I don't care if it's $6 an hour, you will survive in Buffalo. Just got to find one.
And here's what's funny. Buffalo has more jobs available then it does people. Just a matter of what you want to do. I mean, if you can accept working in McDonalds, you have a job right now.
If you are a professional (now I'm going to get my butt kicked because my son works at McDonalds) if you are a professional, medical, or whatever, Buffalo may not have something available.
But you can work, you can survive, you can go fishing and have a picnic. You will love it.
MHT, I'm thrilled that you've found a realtor who does a professional job for you.
But, MHT, I've never said that I don't like Wyoming.
Quite the contrary, I love it here and have made it my home. I intend to retire on my farm/ranch here in spite of owning resort property elsewhere. I've invested in commercial real estate here and depend upon it for my livilihood. I am deeply committed and invested here.
But, in the context of this forum, I'm candid enough to relate some of the problems that others might find as I have.
Wheatland happens to be one of the towns where I've had my worst experiences with realtors.
As I have some friends who've used a Wheatland "buyers agent" and purchased property that was totally misrepresented as to condition and habitability, I don't put much faith in the "buyers agent" relationship in Wyoming.
I could go into the details and name names, but that's not the point here.
What's important is that my first hand experiences have been less than professional and highly disappointing as a capable, motivated, and qualified buyer.
People coming here from other real estate markets may have problems that are unheard of in a more competitive service market. They should be forwarned that the level of real estate competency is less than they might expect and rely upon from licensed professionals.
You are right. I live in Wheatland and it is one of the worst towns for real estate sales people. It is dog eat dog here! Incredible. However, we found a similar situation in a larger "city" in MT.
The best thing to do is do your homework about the property you are interested in and the real estate sales person you are working with. READ the contract, the realtor should never push you to sign anything. They will try - don't let them. Stand up for yourself.
I almost accepted a job transfer to Buffalo, WY but got cold feet. The Big Horn mountains were not enough for me as I lived on the west side of the Tetons in Driggs, ID. Now I live in Pinedale, WY and wow looking at the Winds amazes me and will keep me entertained for years. The oil and gas boom is not as bad of an impact as I thought it was going to be but RENT and housing very high expensive.
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buyer's agent
