Living in the country, yet close to home (Sheridan: costs, things to do)

[sunsprit]

Originally Posted by tigergal

I'm afraid you're not correct on this. The campgrounds close for the winter and two of the t-shirt shops close for the winter. We also have a couple of cheap motels that close in the winter as they tend to operate as housing for summer workers. The Buffalo Bill Historical Center has abbreviated hours during the non-tourist season. I live in Cody and had no problems finding many retail stores in which to do my Christmas shopping. We also enjoyed eating out a good deal because the restaurants didn't have lines out the door. I've also not noticed that any automotive shops were closed for the season. Certainly, in the non-tourist season, the sidewalks are pulled up by 6:30 p.m. By no means, though, does Cody shut down for the winter season. In fact, this former (very recently former) big-city girl from a riparian climate hasn't driven to Billings to do any shopping or take care of any sort of business since before Christmas. In that time, this active family with a teenager in it has managed to take care of all of our needs (shopping, medical, automotive, firearm repair, furniture and appliance purchases, etc) within Cody, Wyoming. By no means does Cody become a wasteland in the winter months.

Tigergal, even though you are a local there in Cody ....

I'm afraid you're not correct on this.

I am a manufacturer's rep calling on businesses in the area. I went through Cody twice, once in the late fall and once again in March. I had specific businesses to call on to service existing accounts, and they were closing for the season and told me to come back in time for the next upcoming summer season. One shop operates out of a sizable motel/cabin property on the SW side of town, and I'd anticipated being able to stay at their lodging on my trip through. They were completely shut down, with a chain across the entryway to their facilities when I went through there. I wound up "stealth camping" in my van in the parking lot of another shut-down motel ... a pretty nice looking group of log cabin affairs ... overlooking the river put-in point. And that was next to a sizable restaurant that was essentially shut down for the winter months with a very short service on Fri/Sat nights with a Sunday brunch instead of a full week of service. Even at that, I tried checking into another motel in that stretch of Cody's hospitality district ... around 4 PM, there was a sign in the lobby window directing one to call the manager on his mobile phone for service; I called a couple of times and only reached their voice mail box. If the rate had been reasonable, I would have stayed there for the night, but they never responded at all. On my second trip through, I wound up staying across the road from there in a discount motel that seemed to be doing most of their trade with oil patch service workers, if the signage on the trucks and vans was any indication.

As well, I cold-called upon two other major shops in Cody at that time, and their comments were that with the upcoming winter season, they didn't know if they'd have enough sales volume to afford the overhead expense of my products through the winter. Asked me to come back in the spring, I returned and they still hadn't seen enough activity this year to justify a change to my product line. They both commented that this year's tourist season traffic was significantly less than what they'd seen in some prior years and they were concerned if they would even survive this year.

Additionally, there were several other shops listed in the phone book that I called upon in my sales travels. They, too, were shut down or into very limited operations ... mainly, on-call for the winter season. Please note that we have marketing partnership agreements with some of the major automotive parts retailer chains, so I call upon them when I'm in town for any leads that they may have and I also do sales calls as the visiting expert/rep with their outside sales reps. I'm very much involved in close contact with them, and I have access to knowing what their sales volumes are each month. We both have to be responsive to our higher ups in the sales chain, and there is a substantial amount of pressure upon those auto parts stores to generate partnership leads/sales ... which directly affect their store rankings and commissions. It's a far more complicated sales/marketing relationship than would appear to the outsider, and it's all very closely tracked so that we know how we're doing on a daily basis.

When my sales day is done in my travels, I enjoy visiting the local antique/flea market emporiums in the towns I travel through. Many were closed down for the season when I went through Cody, and I visited at length with one lady who did have limited winter season hours at her house converted to a retail storefront on the main street in town ... white picket fence, you probably pass it all the time. She commented that most of her competitors in Cody shut down for the winter season and headed south for the winter to other shops or vacation homes.

I did get to visit another shop that was a second story affair, a ramshackle collection of "stuff" literally piled upon the floor. You had to climb over piles of crap to get to many of the display cases, and there was an open closet full of automotive coffee table books which had my interest there. I had to clear stuff out of the way to be able to more closely check out the titles. I found one of interest there, although it was moisture/mold damaged on the back section of the book. In all the time I was in that shop, the proprietor didn't even acknowledge that I was there ... and I was looking at some of the display cases there that had some pricey firearms & knives that he featured in the store. Looked like he was to busy working on a guitar repair to be bothered with any customers coming through, I was the only one there for over an hour. The first time he spoke at all was when his son came upstairs and they got into a lengthy discussion about what they were going to have for supper. For a business that depends upon serving retail customers, this place was beyond just being a shambles ... and the "customer service" was non-existent. At least the guy apologized for "not noticing" that I was there and he discounted the book a lot because of the water damage.

What separates me from the average traveler or tourist is that I'm there during the week for business purposes. The state of the local economy is paramount to my personal sales success because I'm on straight commission ... no sales means no income. So I'm far more attuned to the business activity in a town than most folk coming through. My business is tied to the automotive activity or the transportation business, so I'm painfully aware when times are good and when shops are struggling.

Additionally, as mentioned many times in this forum, I'm an active real estate investor. So another one of my pastimes is to check out the local offerings. I've probably been in more real estate offices, looked at more properties, and dealt with more real estate agents in any given year than 99% of Wyoming's population will ever do in their lifetimes. But essentially, I make my living traveling every possible commercial site of activity in this (and portions of three adjoining) states. Not only that, but the nature of my business has me going through the books of a lot of businesses due to the consulting aspects of what I do for the businesses. I'm privvy to the other side of their business beyond the front door and that side of the house that you see as a client/customer ... and my sales activities go to the extent of marketing and promoting the shops I call on. A very comprehensive offering of products is in my sales bag, and I am on the road extensively throughout the state on a full-time basis (except when it's harvesting time at the farm). As disclosed on many threads here, I have the additionaly flexibiity of travel via my airplane, so I can go places and cover a lot more ground in limited time than most folk can ... especially when roads are closed between destinations but I am often able to get off the ground and by-pass those areas of difficulty. For example, just a week ago ... I was in Wallace NE, Spearfish SD, and Craig CO in just 4 days of travel, home everynight. Look it up ... that's a lot of ground to cover but I made all my sales calls. In the week ahead, I'll be back to CO and still making calls in Casper/Lander/Thermop if all goes according to plan.

As it is, I'm headed through the Cody area again this month. I'll get another opportunity to check out the businesses, the restaurants, and the Cody musuem ... the last times through weren't enough time to check out all the firearms on the lower level or see all of the western art display. Never got to the indian area yet, either ... it's a big musuem with lots to see and absorb.

I've never said that Cody was a wasteland during the winter months. It's got one of the milder climates presenting in Wyoming, but the big draw of it as a tourist stopping point to/from YNP drops off during the winter months with Cody being somewhat distant from the interstate routes. Indeed, with a large box store to accomodate a wide range of normal shopping needs, a number of local shops, and the local school district activities in session, there remains a lot to do for locals. There's a number of restaurants in operation, although the few that I've sampled so far were incredibly pathetic and I've posted same on several other traveler's sites ... where a fair number of folk have chimed in to agree with my assessment. Sorry that you haven't noticed the automotive shop closures during the winter season, but as it's my livlihood to call upon these businesses, I'm painfully aware of their non-business activity during the winter months and it was to my initial surprise that they did, in fact, shut down during this time frame. I'd have been a lot happier to have the expenses of my time/travels to have been justified by a client contact for my sales logs.

I also note that you acknowledge that the restaurants are more accessible to you because they don't have lines out the door as they do in tourist season. It that isn't an indicator of how much different the business activity is from winter to summer season, then I don't know what else would be. And I'd bet if you had access to the sales volume report of WalMart on Yellowstone, you'd see a huge difference in their gross sales from the local resident winter base to the tourist season activity. At least from the numbers I see in the businesses I have access to, the difference is dramatic. When the number of motels that represent an ongoing overhead expense even when shut down for the season can justify shutting down in the winter to save money, it's a very telling aspect of the local economy. I was also made aware that several of the motels in the area are actively for sale, although not marketed to the public ... so you don't know as a tourist or a local that these businesses are in distress or decline and the owners want to minimize their losses at this time; in one case, the motel manager/partner asked me if I was interested in considering the place for an investment ... and my contact with that person was due to them being the property owner of an auto shop in town that is not making consistent lease payments. Obviously, I am not at liberty to disclose names or privileged information here, but again ... this is a side of business that goes on in your hometown that you would not otherwise be aware of but I am due to what I do for a living.

[tigergal]

Originally Posted by sunsprit

Tigergal, even though you are a local there in Cody ....

I'm afraid you're not correct on this.

I am a manufacturer's rep calling on businesses in the area. I went through Cody twice, once in the late fall and once again in March. I had specific businesses to call on to service existing accounts, and they were closing for the season and told me to come back in time for the next upcoming summer season. One shop operates out of a sizable motel/cabin property on the SW side of town, and I'd anticipated being able to stay at their lodging on my trip through. They were completely shut down, with a chain across the entryway to their facilities when I went through there. I wound up "stealth camping" in my van in the parking lot of another shut-down motel ... a pretty nice looking group of log cabin affairs ... overlooking the river put-in point. And that was next to a sizable restaurant that was essentially shut down for the winter months with a very short service on Fri/Sat nights with a Sunday brunch instead of a full week of service. Even at that, I tried checking into another motel in that stretch of Cody's hospitality district ... around 4 PM, there was a sign in the lobby window directing one to call the manager on his mobile phone for service; I called a couple of times and only reached their voice mail box. If the rate had been reasonable, I would have stayed there for the night, but they never responded at all. On my second trip through, I wound up staying across the road from there in a discount motel that seemed to be doing most of their trade with oil patch service workers, if the signage on the trucks and vans was any indication.

As well, I cold-called upon two other major shops in Cody at that time, and their comments were that with the upcoming winter season, they didn't know if they'd have enough sales volume to afford the overhead expense of my products through the winter. Asked me to come back in the spring, I returned and they still hadn't seen enough activity this year to justify a change to my product line. They both commented that this year's tourist season traffic was significantly less than what they'd seen in some prior years and they were concerned if they would even survive this year.

Additionally, there were several other shops listed in the phone book that I called upon in my sales travels. They, too, were shut down or into very limited operations ... mainly, on-call for the winter season. Please note that we have marketing partnership agreements with some of the major automotive parts retailer chains, so I call upon them when I'm in town for any leads that they may have and I also do sales calls as the visiting expert/rep with their outside sales reps. I'm very much involved in close contact with them, and I have access to knowing what their sales volumes are each month. We both have to be responsive to our higher ups in the sales chain, and there is a substantial amount of pressure upon those auto parts stores to generate partnership leads/sales ... which directly affect their store rankings and commissions. It's a far more complicated sales/marketing relationship than would appear to the outsider, and it's all very closely tracked so that we know how we're doing on a daily basis.

When my sales day is done in my travels, I enjoy visiting the local antique/flea market emporiums in the towns I travel through. Many were closed down for the season when I went through Cody, and I visited at length with one lady who did have limited winter season hours at her house converted to a retail storefront on the main street in town ... white picket fence, you probably pass it all the time. She commented that most of her competitors in Cody shut down for the winter season and headed south for the winter to other shops or vacation homes.

I did get to visit another shop that was a second story affair, a ramshackle collection of "stuff" literally piled upon the floor. You had to climb over piles of crap to get to many of the display cases, and there was an open closet full of automotive coffee table books which had my interest there. I had to clear stuff out of the way to be able to more closely check out the titles. I found one of interest there, although it was moisture/mold damaged on the back section of the book. In all the time I was in that shop, the proprietor didn't even acknowledge that I was there ... and I was looking at some of the display cases there that had some pricey firearms & knives that he featured in the store. Looked like he was to busy working on a guitar repair to be bothered with any customers coming through, I was the only one there for over an hour. The first time he spoke at all was when his son came upstairs and they got into a lengthy discussion about what they were going to have for supper. For a business that depends upon serving retail customers, this place was beyond just being a shambles ... and the "customer service" was non-existent. At least the guy apologized for "not noticing" that I was there and he discounted the book a lot because of the water damage.

What separates me from the average traveler or tourist is that I'm there during the week for business purposes. The state of the local economy is paramount to my personal sales success because I'm on straight commission ... no sales means no income. So I'm far more attuned to the business activity in a town than most folk coming through. My business is tied to the automotive activity or the transportation business, so I'm painfully aware when times are good and when shops are struggling.

Additionally, as mentioned many times in this forum, I'm an active real estate investor. So another one of my pastimes is to check out the local offerings. I've probably been in more real estate offices, looked at more properties, and dealt with more real estate agents in any given year than 99% of Wyoming's population will ever do in their lifetimes. But essentially, I make my living traveling every possible commercial site of activity in this (and portions of three adjoining) states. Not only that, but the nature of my business has me going through the books of a lot of businesses due to the consulting aspects of what I do for the businesses. I'm privvy to the other side of their business beyond the front door and that side of the house that you see as a client/customer ... and my sales activities go to the extent of marketing and promoting the shops I call on. A very comprehensive offering of products is in my sales bag, and I am on the road extensively throughout the state on a full-time basis (except when it's harvesting time at the farm). As disclosed on many threads here, I have the additionaly flexibiity of travel via my airplane, so I can go places and cover a lot more ground in limited time than most folk can ... especially when roads are closed between destinations but I am often able to get off the ground and by-pass those areas of difficulty. For example, just a week ago ... I was in Wallace NE, Spearfish SD, and Craig CO in just 4 days of travel, home everynight. Look it up ... that's a lot of ground to cover but I made all my sales calls. In the week ahead, I'll be back to CO and still making calls in Casper/Lander/Thermop if all goes according to plan.

As it is, I'm headed through the Cody area again this month. I'll get another opportunity to check out the businesses, the restaurants, and the Cody musuem ... the last times through weren't enough time to check out all the firearms on the lower level or see all of the western art display. Never got to the indian area yet, either ... it's a big musuem with lots to see and absorb.

I've never said that Cody was a wasteland during the winter months. It's got one of the milder climates presenting in Wyoming, but the big draw of it as a tourist stopping point to/from YNP drops off during the winter months with Cody being somewhat distant from the interstate routes. Indeed, with a large box store to accomodate a wide range of normal shopping needs, a number of local shops, and the local school district activities in session, there remains a lot to do for locals. There's a number of restaurants in operation, although the few that I've sampled so far were incredibly pathetic and I've posted same on several other traveler's sites ... where a fair number of folk have chimed in to agree with my assessment. Sorry that you haven't noticed the automotive shop closures during the winter season, but as it's my livlihood to call upon these businesses, I'm painfully aware of their non-business activity during the winter months and it was to my initial surprise that they did, in fact, shut down during this time frame. I'd have been a lot happier to have the expenses of my time/travels to have been justified by a client contact for my sales logs.

I also note that you acknowledge that the restaurants are more accessible to you because they don't have lines out the door as they do in tourist season. It that isn't an indicator of how much different the business activity is from winter to summer season, then I don't know what else would be. And I'd bet if you had access to the sales volume report of WalMart on Yellowstone, you'd see a huge difference in their gross sales from the local resident winter base to the tourist season activity. At least from the numbers I see in the businesses I have access to, the difference is dramatic. When the number of motels that represent an ongoing overhead expense even when shut down for the season can justify shutting down in the winter to save money, it's a very telling aspect of the local economy. I was also made aware that several of the motels in the area are actively for sale, although not marketed to the public ... so you don't know as a tourist or a local that these businesses are in distress or decline and the owners want to minimize their losses at this time; in one case, the motel manager/partner asked me if I was interested in considering the place for an investment ... and my contact with that person was due to them being the property owner of an auto shop in town that is not making consistent lease payments. Obviously, I am not at liberty to disclose names or privileged information here, but again ... this is a side of business that goes on in your hometown that you would not otherwise be aware of but I am due to what I do for a living.

Well, your description here is certainly different from saying that Cody "shuts down" in the winter as you did previously. There is a significant difference in traffic from tourist season for many businesses. That is the case in tourist towns anywhere in the US in the down-season regardless of climate. I know there are some motels that close for the winter which, again, is not surprising in a tourist district anywhere. However, if I recall correctly, the original poster was addressing the thought of moving and not just visiting in winter. In general, families moving don't require a motel room in the town in which they live. I never said that business didn't lag in the winter. However, for someone considering moving here, if they have a job lined up, they would find what they need here in the winter just as they would in the summer. I very much advocate having a job lined up before moving anywhere; I am very risk-averse. It's a matter of perspective, all of this, I suppose. For someone who lives here, the norm to me is the non-tourist season. I won't be terribly upset when we're no longer overrun by rental RV's driven by people who should drive nothing larger than a VW bug.

[sunsprit]

Originally Posted by tigergal

Well, your description here is certainly different from saying that Cody "shuts down" in the winter as you did previously. There is a significant difference in traffic from tourist season for many businesses. That is the case in tourist towns anywhere in the US in the down-season regardless of climate. I know there are some motels that close for the winter which, again, is not surprising in a tourist district anywhere. However, if I recall correctly, the original poster was addressing the thought of moving and not just visiting in winter. In general, families moving don't require a motel room in the town in which they live. I never said that business didn't lag in the winter. However, for someone considering moving here, if they have a job lined up, they would find what they need here in the winter just as they would in the summer. I very much advocate having a job lined up before moving anywhere; I am very risk-averse. It's a matter of perspective, all of this, I suppose. For someone who lives here, the norm to me is the non-tourist season. I won't be terribly upset when we're no longer overrun by rental RV's driven by people who should drive nothing larger than a VW bug.

Tigergal, even you post that the Cody sidewalks are pretty much rolled up by 6:30 PM in the non-tourist season months and that the restaurants you patronize are much more accessible because the lines aren't out the doors. To me, that's pretty much "shut down" during that time of the year, especially in light of the number of businesses that shut down for the winter. Agreed, Cody remains viable for the locals shopping needs through major purchases, there's some entertainment, and it's got things to do locally which don't require you to travel a long distance like a lot of places in Wyoming require during winter months.

The economic "norm" for the area, however, is the tourism season. When it leaves, the place is decidely in a much lower level of activity. For some businesses, it's not even on a survival basis, it's time to shut down and await the return of the cash flow that they can live on for the rest of the year.

IMO, it's pretty shortsighted to look upon those pesky people whose dollars are the primary basis of your local economy as folk that you'd be happier to not have around. Even if they can't drive their "rental RV's" to your satisfaction ... they leave a lot of money in your local economy.

In all candor, being a rental property owner in a resort area, I look upon them as opportunities and I'm thankful that their money is what makes it possible for me to own a piece of the resort area pie so that I can enjoy it, too. Look at this from the alternative perspective: just how thriving a locale do you think Cody would be if those tourist dollars weren't there? It wouldn't just be retail that would be curtailed, it would be a lot of gov't and public sector jobs that wouldn't be needed.

[sunsprit]

Originally Posted by ElkHunter

I've simply addressed rent in Sheridan and not, "Some places in Wyoming". I have not addressed the weather other then to say we have little wind compared to most of the state.

I live very comfortably on less than $21,000. per year. I live in a 4 year old cabin that is on 3 acres. I pay $600 a month for rent and my utilities have never been over $90 per month. My water, sewer and trash are included with my rent. That is in the dead of winter with my furnace going, or in the middle of July/August with the A/C set at 70 degrees.

Now let's talk weather, for Sheridan and surrounding area. Not Cheyenne, Laramie, Casper, Rock Spring, but Sheridan.

Last winter was very mild as winters go in this area. Even though it was mild, the interstate between here and town was closed 4 times. Each time the closure was for a few hours and was due to visibility, not snow depth. If the snow does start flying hard, our snowplows start when the snow starts, not after it piles up and as such, the roads haven't been shut down for snow depth, for years. The plows run until they simply can't see anymore. The front will move through in a couple hours, the plows will run for an hour and the road is open again.

So let me back up to a winter we had a few years ago that was more to what winters run around here. We had about 45 days of sub-zero weather with temps hitting -35 a time or two. Roads were shut down about 6 or 7 times. One of those times is because we, in Sheridan, got 27 inches of snow in a two day period. The highway closed about sundown on the first day and was open by noon the next day.

Typically Sheridan will get a 6-8 inch snow and it will melt off in 4 or 5 days. A week or two later, we get another 6-8 inch snow. It doesn't build up. It stays in the fields, around shelter belts, on the shady side of the house, but for the most part, doesn't stay for all winter. Strangely enough, with this last winter, even as mild as it was, the snow stayed. It would warm up to 25 degrees, but only drop to 20 at night. I know, because I have an alarm set for 18 degrees so I can tend to the horses if the temp gets into the teens. It only went off a few times last winter.

I keep track of the weather around here and I record it. I am a Weather Spotter for NOAA and I'm also a CoCoRaHS reporter for moisture. I will attach a file showing daily contitions for Sheridan for the last couple of years. Back to Sept of 2009 so you can see what the weather has been like for the last couple of years. I didn't record every day as I was in the hospital several times. But other than that, I hit every day I could. The comments on the right are oddities that were out of the norm, or just observations that needed note. This is what is recorded off of NOAA's weather station that is located about 500 yards from me.

I'd note, EH, that we also are a weather spotter/reporting station for NOAA ...

but let's look at your observations about winters in Sheridan: "We had about 45 days of sub-zero weather with temps hitting -35 a time or two." In my opinion, and in actual experience here in SE Wyoming ... there are very few people who are willing to tolerate such conditions. That's a month and a half of dealing with vehicles that are reluctant to start and operate properly, a month of very cold exposure (frostbite territory) which requires bundling up to be outside, and over a month of essentially being housebound because it's simply too unpleasant outside. These are conditions we take for granted around here which would be emergency situations in most of the USA ... sub zero is extreme for many folk, but then the -35F is off the charts of extreme. With even a minimal breeze, this is a serious health hazard for many people, and just breathing in such cold air is hard on a lot of people; this is aggravated by the altitude's thinner air density. And this is in an area with "milder" winters than a lot of Wyoming ....

But let's look a little closer at your $21,000/year adequate income .... which, if I'm reading your posts correctly through the years ... is predominantly a retirement income and exempt from a lot of taxation which working folk have to pay. So there's a big difference between somebody coming out here on low wages at this income level and what you have for disposable income. Additionally, as a vet (and again, my thanks for your service), you have benefits which most folk do not have access to ... especially medical benefits which aren't matched in the private sector except at great personal expense. (By way of comparison, my wife qualifies for a decent employee group plan, and I'm added on to it at over $600/month for limited coverage ... office visit co-pays, a sizable annual deductible first cost out of pocket 100%, and lifetime caps on coverage; I know that if I had had your repeated health issues/hospitalizations, I'd have reached the lifetime cap many years ago and been without any further insurance benefit).

FWIW, I inquired years ago as to what the Wyoming BlueCross/Blue Shield medical coverage would be for me when I moved up from Colorado as a member. Back then (before my wife got her job with a group plan), it would've cost me over $650/month as a single member and I've read that they've had rate increases every year since. I couldn't afford or justify their coverage, and went without medical insurance for 5 months before finding a major medical coverage (with $8,000 annual deductible!) that I could afford for catastrophic coverage. Went from that to a medical savings account plan which cost just a little bit less and found that my out of pocket annual expenses were even higher ... and that was in years where I had virtually no health issues except for routine preventative medical care).

Effectively, a low income worker here cannot afford such coverage as you or I have, and that's a huge difference when you analyze the cash flow of a person living here on that lower income range. While they would have access to the emergency medical care system, what they'd lack is routine well care so that would come out of pocket, such as routine dental, optometry/glasses/contacts, or regular health checkups; such well care is essential (IMO) to long term successful healthy outcomes ... and that's for people who are reasonable involved with their healthy lifestyles in good health. Take folk with underlying medical issues or health abuse activity and it can be devastating over the long haul.

On energy consumption: I don't know how you do it, EH. $90/month maximum utilities bill? I spend a lot more than that per month on electricity here at my little farmhouse, with a baseline of electricity consumption just for pumping water for our domestic use and the garden/greenhouses/stock waterers. I don't have air conditioning, so that's not a draw in the summer months. In the winter months, with shorter days, we run double our baseline electric bill due to lighting and stock water heaters and running the propane furnace for our HWBB heat. Rarely keep the place at more than 62F, and our propane bill can easily go $350-450 per month in the colder winters ... like those months of sub-zero temps. If it wasn't for supplemental heating with our wood cookstove, typically burning 5-6 cords of wood each winter, we couldn't keep the propane cost down to that low a price. With my work/farm/ranch schedule, I don't have time to collect firewood, so we pay $160/cord for it to be cut/split/delivered each year in the summer months when the guys will give us a discount.

On overall expenses: your lifestyle involves a lot of recreation time with your team and wagon, but there's a lot of folk who don't have that for their pastimes. They've got to spend a lot more money on entertainment and recreation to be reasonably happy. It's a pretty limiting lifestyle for many people if they can't get out to eat several times per week, can't spend money at a bar now and then, or can't go to a movie or other paid entertainment facility. Other recreational expenses add up ... you don't go hunting/fishing/camping for free, it takes equipment and transportation to enjoy these things, and then there's the parks passes and fees which can come into play on top of the gear costs. Even if you scrounge used stuff at flea markets and auctions to minimize your expenses, this stuff still adds up. And you and I both know that the venison or elk in the freezer wasn't "free", nor the fish from the streams ...

We haven't even addressed the costs of clothing, transportation (vehicle cost, registration, taxes, or insurance, let alone fuel expense), food, or misc "wants" and needs (mobile phone, TV, 'net service, TV programming, or other consumer electronics/services). While one can be very frugal about much of these expenses, it's not cheap to acquire all this in Wyoming's towns compared to many other places around the USA. The basic package that most people want to have adds up each month.

I'm not criticizing your financial situation as you do one heck of a very commendable job optomizing your resources ... but it's just not fairly representative of the expenses/living situation of what a low-income wage earner is going to experience here in Wyoming to achieve anything close to your comfortable lifestyle at this earnings level. 'Specially a youngster who doesn't have a lifetime accumulation of all the minimal household goods, furnishings, clothing, equipment, vehicles, toys, and essentials that folk like you and I have accumulated to meet our needs and wants in life. Even the cost of pets can be significant to someone at a low income; lots of rental housing will not accept them, so that can be an additional cost to somebody ... and the cost of feeding a pet (let alone routine vet care/preventative shots) can be a monthly expense that is significant (two of my rescue dogs go through over $30/week in dog food alone, my other dogs can eat the cheap stuff from WalMart).

The reality of someone earning $21,000 per year here is that they'll need to be taking advantage of every possible assistance program ... housing, food stamps, medical ... to be able to survive here. I see people do it and they typically live in shared housing situations and very close to the vest on any day. Any unplanned out of normal daily expense is one step away from catastrophic on their finances. Survival may suit some people, but for many, it's not what they're seeking in life. A severe Wyoming winter on the cheap isn't very pleasant, as many have found out. You really want to have to be here and survive these conditions, as others have observed in these threads ....

[ElkHunter]

In Wyoming, if you make more than $900 a month, you are not eligeble for Food Stamps, Medicade, but are eligeble for housing assistance.

It seems that what I've mentioned on other threads, that it comes down to the sense of entitlement that folks have these days. I didn't have medical coverage when I got into the work force. I worked for 10 years before I finally got a job that did have medical available. Today, very few companys do not have some sort of medical available. Even McDonalds offers Medical and for a single person it's less than $200 per month. I'm not sure what the co-pays are, or the lifetime deductibles, etc... but I have been told by several McDonalds employee's that they really like the medical coverage.

Yes, when I want something to do, I harness up the team, but the idea that you have to spend a lot of money for entertainment is obsurd. At any given time, the fairgrounds have free things going on, or low cost things. Gun shows, doll shows, 4 H exhibits, horse shows, rodeo's, trick shooting, animal exhibits, etc... Some of the exhibits cost a nominal fee to get in, but only a few. During the winter, every school in town has plays, choir concerts, band concerts, football games, soccer games, etc... During the summer there is adult softball, youth soccer, youth football, youth baseball, youth t-ball. We have a wonderful park to go and enjoy your sunday meal at a picnic table instead of your dining room table. At the park there are concerts in the park, and they are free. The college South of town, has a very good rodeo team and you can go out there and watch Team Roping, Bull Dogging, Bareback, Saddlebronk, Bull Riding, etc and all it costs is the gas to drive 1 mile South of town. 3 major creeks go through town and kids go tubing, every day. There is good fishing in all three, as well as Sam Abarakus ponds, and for kids only, the pond at the fair grounds. Wintertime have the kids and adults sledding at one of the 3 or 4 places in town to go sledding. Sheridan is not that big and if you live in town, you can go to any one of those, on foot. So why does one half to "Buy" entertainment. I revert back to my statement on the sense of entitlement - I'm here, entertain me.

There are hundreds of volunteer things you can do in town, from donating time at the hospital, to time at any of the many retirement homes, to time at the VA hospital, taking people to their appointments within the hospital or VA by pushing them in a wheelchair.

Other than allowing myself a good meal at a restaurant, once a month, I don't pay for entertainment, there is no reason to. I try to support my community and I do so by being involved with the community.

I can not imagine setting at home every night, putting in my time at a part time job, trying to get enough money ahead so I can go out and spend money to be entertained. Get out of the house, go to some event, after a few times of doing that you'll realize that you don't have time to go out for supper, you won't want to blow the money to go watch a movie that's going to be on TV in another 6 months. Who said you have to watch a movie the same day it is released? Why? Are you now, ahead of everybody else?

I am happier now, at what works out to $10. an hour, than I was as a Process/Design Engineer for $35. an hour.

I understand that it would be nice if everybody could start out at $40k a year, but reality says they can't, so a person has got to do the best they can, with what they've got. People that say "I don't make enough to go out and do something every week" simply is not exploring what there is to do, but instead are trying to keep up with the Jones and setting back, waiting for all of their entitlemments.

[tigergal]

Originally Posted by sunsprit

Tigergal, even you post that the Cody sidewalks are pretty much rolled up by 6:30 PM in the non-tourist season months and that the restaurants you patronize are much more accessible because the lines aren't out the doors. To me, that's pretty much "shut down" during that time of the year, especially in light of the number of businesses that shut down for the winter. Agreed, Cody remains viable for the locals shopping needs through major purchases, there's some entertainment, and it's got things to do locally which don't require you to travel a long distance like a lot of places in Wyoming require during winter months.

The economic "norm" for the area, however, is the tourism season. When it leaves, the place is decidely in a much lower level of activity. For some businesses, it's not even on a survival basis, it's time to shut down and await the return of the cash flow that they can live on for the rest of the year.

IMO, it's pretty shortsighted to look upon those pesky people whose dollars are the primary basis of your local economy as folk that you'd be happier to not have around. Even if they can't drive their "rental RV's" to your satisfaction ... they leave a lot of money in your local economy.

In all candor, being a rental property owner in a resort area, I look upon them as opportunities and I'm thankful that their money is what makes it possible for me to own a piece of the resort area pie so that I can enjoy it, too. Look at this from the alternative perspective: just how thriving a locale do you think Cody would be if those tourist dollars weren't there? It wouldn't just be retail that would be curtailed, it would be a lot of gov't and public sector jobs that wouldn't be needed.

I think you took me way too seriously on a funny. Yes, I realize that tourist dollars are a big part of our economy. Yes, the sidewalks pull up at 6:30 in the winter. They pull them up at 8:00 in the summer. Honestly, there's something strange about not being able to get a reasonably priced family dinner in July that doesn't come in a wrapper while the sun's still up, but that's how it is. (There is one place, if one wants the salt-special, but...).

We are very fortunate that our income doesn't depend on tourist dollars at all. My husband's work is just as busy in the off-season as the tourist-season. My photography is sold outside of this region. (For some reason, lots of Texas customers.)

That said, I never disagreed that the busy season was busier than the slow season. It happens all around the world in tourist and non-tourist destinations alike. What I disagreed with was that Cody "shuts down" in winter which it does not.

[sunsprit]

Originally Posted by ElkHunter

In Wyoming, if you make more than $900 a month, you are not eligeble for Food Stamps, Medicade, but are eligeble for housing assistance.

It seems that what I've mentioned on other threads, that it comes down to the sense of entitlement that folks have these days. I didn't have medical coverage when I got into the work force. I worked for 10 years before I finally got a job that did have medical available. Today, very few companys do not have some sort of medical available. Even McDonalds offers Medical and for a single person it's less than $200 per month. I'm not sure what the co-pays are, or the lifetime deductibles, etc... but I have been told by several McDonalds employee's that they really like the medical coverage.

Yes, when I want something to do, I harness up the team, but the idea that you have to spend a lot of money for entertainment is obsurd. At any given time, the fairgrounds have free things going on, or low cost things. Gun shows, doll shows, 4 H exhibits, horse shows, rodeo's, trick shooting, animal exhibits, etc... Some of the exhibits cost a nominal fee to get in, but only a few. During the winter, every school in town has plays, choir concerts, band concerts, football games, soccer games, etc... During the summer there is adult softball, youth soccer, youth football, youth baseball, youth t-ball. We have a wonderful park to go and enjoy your sunday meal at a picnic table instead of your dining room table. At the park there are concerts in the park, and they are free. The college South of town, has a very good rodeo team and you can go out there and watch Team Roping, Bull Dogging, Bareback, Saddlebronk, Bull Riding, etc and all it costs is the gas to drive 1 mile South of town. 3 major creeks go through town and kids go tubing, every day. There is good fishing in all three, as well as Sam Abarakus ponds, and for kids only, the pond at the fair grounds. Wintertime have the kids and adults sledding at one of the 3 or 4 places in town to go sledding. Sheridan is not that big and if you live in town, you can go to any one of those, on foot. So why does one half to "Buy" entertainment. I revert back to my statement on the sense of entitlement - I'm here, entertain me.

There are hundreds of volunteer things you can do in town, from donating time at the hospital, to time at any of the many retirement homes, to time at the VA hospital, taking people to their appointments within the hospital or VA by pushing them in a wheelchair.

Other than allowing myself a good meal at a restaurant, once a month, I don't pay for entertainment, there is no reason to. I try to support my community and I do so by being involved with the community.

I can not imagine setting at home every night, putting in my time at a part time job, trying to get enough money ahead so I can go out and spend money to be entertained. Get out of the house, go to some event, after a few times of doing that you'll realize that you don't have time to go out for supper, you won't want to blow the money to go watch a movie that's going to be on TV in another 6 months. Who said you have to watch a movie the same day it is released? Why? Are you now, ahead of everybody else?

I am happier now, at what works out to $10. an hour, than I was as a Process/Design Engineer for $35. an hour.

I understand that it would be nice if everybody could start out at $40k a year, but reality says they can't, so a person has got to do the best they can, with what they've got. People that say "I don't make enough to go out and do something every week" simply is not exploring what there is to do, but instead are trying to keep up with the Jones and setting back, waiting for all of their entitlemments.

EH, I completely agree with you that there are a multitude of free or low cost events and activities locally to enjoy which are quality entertainment accessible to everybody.

But here's what I've observed in the groups of people that are much younger than you and I, and you've touched upon the issue... "I can not imagine setting at home every night, putting in my time at a part time job, trying to get enough money ahead so I can go out and spend money to be entertained."

That's precisely what they tend to do ... work to achieve the goal of being entertained via electronics, movie theaters, bowling alleys, concerts, shopping for stuff, restaurants, and passing time at the common Wyoming magnet for social interaction ... bars. For much of the USA, food is equivalent to dining out every day ... that's what the fast food industry relys upon, and it's more the exception than not to cook from scratch at home. For many folk, "cooking at home" is heating up convenience prepared foods rather than cooking from scratch ... even though it's not as nutritious and it's more expensive. I watch my labor ready workers ... not one makes a sandwich for lunch, they all buy fast food burgers and burritos and pizza's for lunch every day that they are working. Similarly, I call upon a lot of shops with lower paid workers and see their food budget spent that way everyday. It takes discipline and organization and motivation to see this overhead expense as wasteful when you're on a tight budget/cash flow, and few folk have it today because they see themselves as "deserving" of the convenience and satisfaction of these food products.

That's on top of the needed (and/or desired) material goods which us older guys have already accumulated through the years. We've got paid for motor vehicles that meet our needs, we've got household items that furnish our residences, household goods in the kitchen, the b-b-que on the patio, clothing for every activity, recreational equipment (firearms, fishing gear, camping gear, archery equipment, etc), livestock, pets, and so forth. We've reached a point in our lives where another boat, horse, motorcycle, bicycle, car or truck, ATV, or ? is a discretionary purchase and we can take it or leave it, and we can bide our time until the "right deal" comes along or somebody gives us an unwanted horse that has potential left in it for $75, or the old saddle in useable condition that needs a little TLC for $200. We see value in getting the remaining service life out of any consumer goods that come our way for little or no money, even if they don't have any "flash" left to them ....

But that's not the financial situation of those younger folk ... and I use the term "younger folk" very loosely.
I see teenagers, twenty somethings, and folk into their '40's who are still reaching for those dreams of material goods, better (or different) transportation, recreational toys, electronics, clothing, and so forth.

I've seen labor ready workers who struggle with the decision to go to COMEA house for the evening vs finding a roomate to share the cost for the night in a trashy $35 motel have new 4G cellphones and a $700 iPad with all the monthly service fees ... and their 'phone is touch and go every month because they've used up the minutes on their plan already so they're scrimping to make a payment on it.

I, too, know what it's like to not have medical insurance ... as a youngster, I had no coverage when I was 20 because the jobs I worked then didn't have any. But I did develop a blown appendix which turned into peritonitis before I sought medical help. Like it or not, I was headed to surgery and a slow recovery where I couldn't work for several months with a few hundred dollars in savings. I had a whopping bunch of doctor, surgeon, anethesiologist, and hospital bills, and medication on top of that ... all of which I had to pay for out of pocket via a monthly payment for years afterwards. I paid that bill in full and didn't know then that I probably could have negotiated a lower settlement to be paid. For many people today, they don't work at jobs where medical coverage is readily or affordably available ... especially part-timers. I didn't have medical benefits until I started a business where there was enough cash flow to buy my own coverage, and because I was a group policy of one, the rates were expensive at the time until I was able to purchase insurance through my automotive service association group policy.

You can decry that "sense of entitlement" all you want, but that's the expectation of much of today's population of the USA for survival and entertainment. And it can fall very short given the real world incomes and costs of living here in Wyoming, especially during the winter months.

PS: I see the trends of this all the time, even with families that have what could otherwise be a decent income. They look upon what my wife and I have accumulated and want to emulate us ... farm, ranch, and all the "stuff". Only they want it all now, and they don't appreciate that I've worked over 50 years to get to this point and even though I'm past most folk's retirement age target, I'm still working full time and operating my farm/ranch. My wife works her off the farm job and still comes back to raise her produce and lamb and poultry for sale, too. We don't spend any time in bars, and haven't had a "vacation" in a decade, haven't been to a concert or movie screen in decades, don't follow any pro sports so spend nothing on that ... and we volunteer for several events, donate some time to charitable causes, donate money to some charities ... everything we do is targeted to our property and livestock. Yet many of those folks looking at us seem to think we've got it easy ... we don't, we pay for everything we've got and everything that we donate to others. We still work harder than they do and aren't blowing our income on "entertainment".

[tigergal]

Originally Posted by ElkHunter

In Wyoming, if you make more than $900 a month, you are not eligeble for Food Stamps, Medicade, but are eligeble for housing assistance.

It seems that what I've mentioned on other threads, that it comes down to the sense of entitlement that folks have these days. I didn't have medical coverage when I got into the work force. I worked for 10 years before I finally got a job that did have medical available. Today, very few companys do not have some sort of medical available. Even McDonalds offers Medical and for a single person it's less than $200 per month. I'm not sure what the co-pays are, or the lifetime deductibles, etc... but I have been told by several McDonalds employee's that they really like the medical coverage.

Yes, when I want something to do, I harness up the team, but the idea that you have to spend a lot of money for entertainment is obsurd. At any given time, the fairgrounds have free things going on, or low cost things. Gun shows, doll shows, 4 H exhibits, horse shows, rodeo's, trick shooting, animal exhibits, etc... Some of the exhibits cost a nominal fee to get in, but only a few. During the winter, every school in town has plays, choir concerts, band concerts, football games, soccer games, etc... During the summer there is adult softball, youth soccer, youth football, youth baseball, youth t-ball. We have a wonderful park to go and enjoy your sunday meal at a picnic table instead of your dining room table. At the park there are concerts in the park, and they are free. The college South of town, has a very good rodeo team and you can go out there and watch Team Roping, Bull Dogging, Bareback, Saddlebronk, Bull Riding, etc and all it costs is the gas to drive 1 mile South of town. 3 major creeks go through town and kids go tubing, every day. There is good fishing in all three, as well as Sam Abarakus ponds, and for kids only, the pond at the fair grounds. Wintertime have the kids and adults sledding at one of the 3 or 4 places in town to go sledding. Sheridan is not that big and if you live in town, you can go to any one of those, on foot. So why does one half to "Buy" entertainment. I revert back to my statement on the sense of entitlement - I'm here, entertain me.

There are hundreds of volunteer things you can do in town, from donating time at the hospital, to time at any of the many retirement homes, to time at the VA hospital, taking people to their appointments within the hospital or VA by pushing them in a wheelchair.

Other than allowing myself a good meal at a restaurant, once a month, I don't pay for entertainment, there is no reason to. I try to support my community and I do so by being involved with the community.

I can not imagine setting at home every night, putting in my time at a part time job, trying to get enough money ahead so I can go out and spend money to be entertained. Get out of the house, go to some event, after a few times of doing that you'll realize that you don't have time to go out for supper, you won't want to blow the money to go watch a movie that's going to be on TV in another 6 months. Who said you have to watch a movie the same day it is released? Why? Are you now, ahead of everybody else?

I am happier now, at what works out to $10. an hour, than I was as a Process/Design Engineer for $35. an hour.

I understand that it would be nice if everybody could start out at $40k a year, but reality says they can't, so a person has got to do the best they can, with what they've got. People that say "I don't make enough to go out and do something every week" simply is not exploring what there is to do, but instead are trying to keep up with the Jones and setting back, waiting for all of their entitlemments.

You make such great points. When I lived in a huge city, I was surrounded by "entertainment". But ya know what? Very little of it actually entertained me. We'd go to movies and I'd recreationally shop which was just money down the drain. I could drive for an hour and see nothing more than suburbs and cotton fields. Here, we're set with an annual National Park pass and our fishing licenses. Within an hour, I'm in Yellowstone or up at Pryor Mountain having the time of my life. What we do for fun rarely requires money. The Bellamy Brothers are doing a free concert in the park next Sunday; we'll be there. Other than Stampede Rodeo, the biggest entertainment splurge we've had was going to see the community theatre production of The Sound of Music in December - $30 for 3 people. My husband and I will go out to dinner about once a month if our daughter is sleeping over at a friends - just because we don't get much time alone since our families are on the other side of the country and it's a nice splurge.

I've never been much for spending on entertainment (barring the occasional Broadway show splurge and going to see Garth Brooks whenever he was near). As long as we have our hiking shoes, fly rods, and our cameras, we're good to go. I think a lot of people who require pricey entertainment just need to be a little more creative.

[sunsprit]

Originally Posted by tigergal

You make such great points. When I lived in a huge city, I was surrounded by "entertainment". But ya know what? Very little of it actually entertained me. We'd go to movies and I'd recreationally shop which was just money down the drain. I could drive for an hour and see nothing more than suburbs and cotton fields. Here, we're set with an annual National Park pass and our fishing licenses. Within an hour, I'm in Yellowstone or up at Pryor Mountain having the time of my life. What we do for fun rarely requires money. The Bellamy Brothers are doing a free concert in the park next Sunday; we'll be there. Other than Stampede Rodeo, the biggest entertainment splurge we've had was going to see the community theatre production of The Sound of Music in December - $30 for 3 people. My husband and I will go out to dinner about once a month if our daughter is sleeping over at a friends - just because we don't get much time alone since our families are on the other side of the country and it's a nice splurge.

I've never been much for spending on entertainment (barring the occasional Broadway show splurge and going to see Garth Brooks whenever he was near). As long as we have our hiking shoes, fly rods, and our cameras, we're good to go. I think a lot of people who require pricey entertainment just need to be a little more creative.

tigergal ...

you and EH are making my point for me, thank you ....

that the typical person who arrives in Wyoming and is happy to be here takes advantage of the resources available to maximize their finances to the utmost.

You'd already determined that what you needed to do and have out of life was consistent with what's available here as opposed to the bigger city environment.

But the reality is that what you are happy to do and have here is the exception to what passes for necessity for most of the population of the USA.

Most folk don't have the creativity or ability to enjoy themselves without being "entertained", even if they can enjoy a visit for awhile into the lifestyle that you enjoy here, it's not something that they can sustain for the long haul. Hence the dissatisfaction that arrives with the realities of living in Wyoming for so many, and why the winter climate becomes so discouraging. Recreation doesn't equal long term entertainment for many people. Again, if I hadn't seen the rapid departures of so many folk from this state who couldn't honestly assess what it was that brought them happiness and satisfaction in life ... I wouldn't have formed this opinion.

[ElkHunter]

And thank you for making my point. I mentioned todays idea of a Sense of Intitlement. It goes hand and hand with people (don't care what age they are) no longer know the difference of "Want" and "Need".

I want, a cell phone that has internet, 4G, GPS, 500 contacts, has 14 mega pixel camera.
I need, a cell phone so my boss can call me.

The OP said, "Is the wind as bad in the northern part of the state? Smaller towns/medium sized cities in the central/northern part of the state with affordable rural housing and a decent economy where I could find a job? Just minimum wage for a while? I also didn't like how brown Laramie was, want some more green."

Doesn't say they want to live on minimum wage for ever, but is willing to work at all costs to get things started.

That, is very achievable in the Sheridan area. It's a rough start, thousands have done it, but with a willing attitude and drive, can be done.

The op didn't ask for boats and 4G cell phones, and rock concerts, just a place with an economy good enough to make a go of it.

If enough of the "Need" instead of the "Want" is put back into play, pretty soon the "Want's" are achievable.

Originally Posted by sunsprit

tigergal ...

you and EH are making my point for me, thank you ....

that the typical person who arrives in Wyoming and is happy to be here takes advantage of the resources available to maximize their finances to the utmost.

You'd already determined that what you needed to do and have out of life was consistent with what's available here as opposed to the bigger city environment.

But the reality is that what you are happy to do and have here is the exception to what passes for necessity for most of the population of the USA.

Most folk don't have the creativity or ability to enjoy themselves without being "entertained", even if they can enjoy a visit for awhile into the lifestyle that you enjoy here, it's not something that they can sustain for the long haul. Hence the dissatisfaction that arrives with the realities of living in Wyoming for so many, and why the winter climate becomes so discouraging. Recreation doesn't equal long term entertainment for many people. Again, if I hadn't seen the rapid departures of so many folk from this state who couldn't honestly assess what it was that brought them happiness and satisfaction in life ... I wouldn't have formed this opinion.