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We were thinking about Northern Wyoming, but some of the dental experts for the area said that if you are not Mormon, it will be difficult to keep a practice going, since much of the population is Mormon. They recommended that we try out Cheyenne.
Are there any Mormons on the boards that can give an opinion on this? Some of my best friends are LDS, but I do not know about this propensity to only go to a Mormon dentist/doctor.
I did look at that Classified Ad for Northern Wyoming practice. I talked with them about it. It is a possibility, but we would need to check it out for ourselves, of course!
LDS has a strong presence in much of Wyoming ... and if you've been advised by "dental experts" that this may be a factor in running a practice in a given area, I would heed their advice.
Personally, my business has had this work for and against me. As a manufacturer's rep in industrial product lines with exclusive territory for some very unique and beneficial products to the projects under consideration, I've been stonewalled and thrown out of some GC's and architectural firms in the region. I've actually watched the receptionist or the CG purchasing agent responsible for taking my RFP response throw it into the trash, unread. OTOH, when I made a connection in the group who understood the benefits of what I was selling, I got personally introduced back into the same GC's and then invited to meet with company pricipal partners and project directors. Folks who were previously unavailable to me in any circumstance were suddenly able to meet with me immediately when we cold called again; my connection identified themself as a church member and typically wore lapel pins/belt buckles/wrist watch bands that announced their affiliation as well as mentioning church events in which they were participating.
So, here's my take on this: if you can break into the group and get their acceptance and approval, you'll have the prospect of some very nice people as loyal clients with lots of referrals. If you cannot make that connection, you'll not have access to this group of people; even if they have to travel some distance to a provider within their group, they will do so rather than do business with you.
OF course, this isn't an absolute situation with every member (or I'd have never been able to establish the business relationships I have), but it's significant because you're looking at population counts in the small towns which don't have a large prospective client base for your practice.
LDS has a strong presence in much of Wyoming ... and if you've been advised by "dental experts" that this may be a factor in running a practice in a given area, I would heed their advice.
Personally, my business has had this work for and against me. As a manufacturer's rep in industrial product lines with exclusive territory for some very unique and beneficial products to the projects under consideration, I've been stonewalled and thrown out of some GC's and architectural firms in the region. I've actually watched the receptionist or the CG purchasing agent responsible for taking my RFP response throw it into the trash, unread. OTOH, when I made a connection in the group who understood the benefits of what I was selling, I got personally introduced back into the same GC's and then invited to meet with company pricipal partners and project directors. Folks who were previously unavailable to me in any circumstance were suddenly able to meet with me immediately when we cold called again; my connection identified themself as a church member and typically wore lapel pins/belt buckles/wrist watch bands that announced their affiliation as well as mentioning church events in which they were participating.
So, here's my take on this: if you can break into the group and get their acceptance and approval, you'll have the prospect of some very nice people as loyal clients with lots of referrals. If you cannot make that connection, you'll not have access to this group of people; even if they have to travel some distance to a provider within their group, they will do so rather than do business with you.
OF course, this isn't an absolute situation with every member (or I'd have never been able to establish the business relationships I have), but it's significant because you're looking at population counts in the small towns which don't have a large prospective client base for your practice.
I'm not Mormon, but...
I assume you're referring to Lovell. It has a large LDS population, and if there are other LDS dentists in town, they're more likely to go to them because they know them and their families. Other than Lovell I don't know of any northern Wyoming towns that have a large percentage of LDS. I've been a business owner in Gillette (mostly) and Cody and never noticed any problems. I've had many LDS clients and a LDS neighbor. Good people.
(snip) Other than Lovell I don't know of any northern Wyoming towns that have a large percentage of LDS. (snip) I've had many LDS clients and a LDS neighbor. Good people.
sorry, WyoNewk ...
but I was made aware of this situation in WY all the way back in the early 1970's when the business next door to my shop opened up, and the owner was a (non-LDS) native from Lander who had to leave there because his only competitor was LDS ... and the local community flocked to that business.
as well, I've posted about friends of mine (WY natives, ranch managers) that are LDS, but not highly observant who have been run out of jobs and towns in Northern Wyoming because they weren't LDS enough to satisfy their local brethren. I won't name the town here, but it's not all that far from where EH lives and our friend ... highly qualified with years of experience in her municipal job position ... was hired based upon her excellent qualifications and then nit-picked almost immediately to force her to quit because she didn't fit in with the local LDS community. She didn't quit, so she was written up enough times on bogus allegations that the town mayor fired her per their employee manual. The town then hired the 18-yr old daughter of her former office manager to replace her; the youngster had zero job experience, zero skills, and brought nothing to a fairly complex multi-tasking public service job; her only qualifications was that she was LDS and the daughter of the office manager. Nepotism? not even an issue with these folk, they protected their own.
There are apparently some communities where it's very closed socially and economically to only those who are very devout and observant. If you don't travel in these circles with your social or business connections, you wouldn't otherwise know about the situation. You will encounter resistance to your business simply because you are an outsider if they have an option within their own community circle. My bet here is that you aren't aware of the situation in Wyoming because you haven't been up against the business or social challenges that present in those towns. The only reason that I was able to get in the door was because I had a regional territory exclusive on some unique products which were the only viable solutions to problems they were having in their buildings and structures.
Even at that, I've had some comical encounters at job sites with the decision makers/project managers. Like I'm on site, doing an inspection so that I can give them my professional opinion and recommendations ... and the decision maker will not acknowledge my presence or speak to me. My questions and answers were delivered through my site contact to the decision maker; kinda' like they could only hear the words spoken by their brethren and not those of an outsider even when I had direct questions about site conditions, parameters, and operations of the facility that were essential to making a proper assessment of the scope of the work. Not even body language to acknowledge my presence was given, yet the operation of their facilities were dependent upon my solutions.
Again, I will stress that once in the door, you'll find some very nice folk to do business with. I've made some lifetime friends through the group and there's a few I visit with every week even if we don't have projects to discuss.
PS: wikipedia has an article about LDS membership by state, with some revealing stats from the LDS church showing the numbers of members and percentage of the locals by county. Central (especially Northern Wyoming) has counties showing over 50% population membership, and Western Wyoming(closer to UT), similarly large numbers. I'd estimate that WY has over 100,000 active members, around 20% of the population today. My contacts in the building construction side of the church tell me that they are building new or expanding existing facilities in the area at a record pace to accomodate the increasing demand. Indeed, Cheyenne recently had a major expansion with new facilities built here.
I don't ask others what their preferences are, as far as religion, and nobody has ever asked me (maybe there is a reason for that hahaha), but I haven't seen the LDS problems in City Government, that I know of. I have seen it with some subdivisions around here and I have heard of problems in City Gov in towns around me, but I just haven't been exposed to it myself.
I happened to be in the local cafe the other day and a girl was talking about the "local" dentist wanting to retire. He has a fairly good business, plus he works 2 days a week at the VA. I will DM his information.
Is this the map you're referring to, Sunsprit? It's 2000 figures, but if I'm reading it correctly, it shows 1% LDS for all of NE Wyoming, including Campbell (Gillette), Johnson (Buffalo) and Sheridan counties -- Fremont (Lander) too. (About the same as all of California.) Populations in northern Wyoming haven't changed all that much since 2000 except for Campbell, and I'd be surprised if the percentage of LDS has jumped that much in Campbell. That said, I'd have guessed there was more than 1% LDS in Gillette but not more than 5% or so. That's still pretty insignificant from a business standpoint.
Here's another Wiki page stating that as of 2010 there were 63K Mormons in Wyoming. Most of those would be in the SW corner of the state.
Is this the map you're referring to, Sunsprit? It's 2000 figures, but if I'm reading it correctly, it shows 1% LDS for all of NE Wyoming, including Campbell (Gillette), Johnson (Buffalo) and Sheridan counties -- Fremont (Lander) too. (About the same as all of California.) Populations in northern Wyoming haven't changed all that much since 2000 except for Campbell, and I'd be surprised if the percentage of LDS has jumped that much in Campbell. That said, I'd have guessed there was more than 1% LDS in Gillette but not more than 5% or so. That's still pretty insignificant from a business standpoint.
Here's another Wiki page stating that as of 2010 there were 63K Mormons in Wyoming. Most of those would be in the SW corner of the state.
The map that's posted is indeed based upon year 2000 stats, but if you had read the entire WIKI article you'd have seen that they updated other charts to year 2012 figures as reported by the LDS.
NE WY doesn't have that strong LDS presence, so I'd agree with your assessment that Gillette doesn't see this issue. But that doesn't mean that the missions aren't active in the area, either.
The 2010 data is quite out of date re the low WY number posted. According to my inside source, LDS is proudly in the top church affiliations for expansion in the world right now, with steadily increasing numbers in many locales. It's why they are building new facilites as fast as they can in this region as well as expanding exisiting facilities. FWIW, my primary source is a LDS top inner circle member and ... here's my connection to him ... a rep/supplier for several major construction line items of their building expansion program, especially in the facilities that are now being upgraded to accomodate larger groups and provide higher level services.
With established stakes in much of Wyoming, the welcome mat has been out for a lot of LDS folk to move here permanently. So while others come and go depending upon boom/bust cycles, the brethren have a community of social and financial support for their employment or businesses which enable them to come here with a long term outlook of residency. There's a resulting change in the demographics of the local population.
But again, I'll reiterate for those of you who haven't personally encountered the closed group mentality that exists in many small towns in WY ... your anecdotal experience where you haven't seen it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.
Some of us have anecdotal experience that is quite contrary to yours. In my case, I took on some product line territories where the national companies had never had a sale in the UT/WY/ID region, and told "good luck". They'd had reps in the area previously who simply could not find any sales opportunities despite having some industry leading products that were a license to mine pure gold in other markets. In my naivete, I took on the challenge because I had enough territory with sales that would support my sales trip efforts, membership in the region plans rooms (that's where the GC's and project owners post their project RFB's and RFP's, which is what we respond to for our BIDS), and site tours of projects (hey, nobody pays my expenses to travel to these ... my sole compensation is IF I get a BID Award and sell something).
I had the door slammed in my face in this region so many times it wasn't funny for several years. I thought maybe I was doing something so offensive that it was why I couldn't even get an appointment to show my products ... even though one of my lines was the industry's national keynote convention speaker for several years because he'd created the best products of their type in the entire field. I brought my wife with me, who is more intuitive about body language and communication than I am to some of the major prospective sales calls to see if she could scope out the situation. Her assessment was that the door was simply closed to me for reasons unknown, it wasn't anything I was doing or saying that was the causation.
Subsequently, there was an emergency project in the SLC area in an LDS owned facility which was going to be shut down ... at a loss of $multi-millions because they couldn't keep it in a condition to satisfy the USDA. After years of trying to effect repairs with other products, the patience of the USDA was worn out and they gave the church a date certain for a facility shut-down unless some solution to the problems could be found. The church management was desperate, this was an ongoing facility that employed many LDS members (it was used for a jobs program) as a means of financial support and it was a major food facility in their church operations. That was where I first got my foot in the door with this group; one of their GC's had been to several national conventions and heard my boss speak about his product line capabilities. The inquiry came into the company, asking if they could help ... and was channeled to me as the exclusive independent rep in the area. So I got invited to a site tour in SLC, where I had the appropriate solutions to the problem and working knowledge of how to satisfy the USDA that we could meet their expectations for the facilities within their deadline.
Having completed this project, my contact then personally introduced me to a sizable number of other GC's and architectural firms. Places where I'd had the door firmly slammed in my face previously. Every time we went in, the chit-chat was always to establish that my contact was a church member and that he was introducing me as an OK person to do business with because I had what they needed for their projects ... even though I wasn't LDS. The problem(s) that I solved in the one SLC facility turned out to be a widespread problem in the region, and my competitor line rep in SLC (he was LDS) who'd been getting all the business previously had a product line that didn't perform as needed ... but he'd sold it as the best he had and asserted that nothing else could outperform his product. Being LDS, his representations were taken at face value and that was the end of the discussion for all of these GC's and specifiers. In their view, there was no need to seek solutions outside of that box.
Again, I won't name GC, architectural firms, or businesses where I experienced this situation, but I can assure you that it was a large number of some pretty sizable firms that have this very narrow LDS perspective on doing business. And I'll point out that if you walk in the door as a prospective client, they'll be very cordial to do business with you. But the other side of the house, the specifying and purchasing, where they are spending their money ... is effectively closed to outsiders unless you are brought in as a friend. It took me 5 years to breach that barrier to the extent that I have done so.
PS: I lost the product line that got me in the door in SLC with the LDS when another rep in the area called up my manufacturer with grand promises of far increased sales volume than I was delivering because he would be welcome in more doors than I'd ever be. He had one $mil project lined up in SLC at a commercial facility where he'd bad-mouthed me to the project managers, so I was shut out of the project. My boss saw the opportunity for a showcase project with his product and terminated me (Ah, such is the nature of independent manufacturer's rep biz). They got the project, and then ... not one more of any significance over the last few years. Why? because another popular rep, also LDS, got a competitor's line that was fairly comparable to the line I'd had and his brothers and cousins owned most of the regional competitive contractors installing this type of product. It's not enough to have the best product of it's type at the best pricing ... you've got to have contractors that will bid projects with your stuff.
My experience is not limited to UT or WY ... I had the same closed-door situation in NW Colorado with some major firms there. But as this thread is about WY, I can assure you that the situation is real, ongoing, and pervasive today and extends at various levels socially and economically around WY in the areas with a high LDS population count.
FWIW, I see the same thing with another religious group here in WY, of which I have many neighbors who are members. They'll happily do business with you if you are spending your money, but if they are spending their money ... you are an outsider. Socially, you aren't welcome to their daily lives, either. It's taken me years to become accepted by most of them here because I was in a position to be of assistance to them and their families and did so without reservation as a neighbor. But I've met some of their leaders and members from out of the area when they were coming through on tours or missions, and I've been treated as a nonexistent person by them. Literally been at a job site or met them at a place of business where my input was part of the discussion ... and they absolutely refused to acknowledge my presence. I could ask a question and it was not acknowledged until a church member asked it, and then it was answered pointedly to the member who asked it, not to me or the general group. It's a weird interaction, and it's beyond rude contempt or exclusion. What makes it doubly insulting was that it was apparent that I was part of the discussion because I was a trusted outsider ....
I have no doubt that many of you on this forum will never encounter a problem of this type, because your contact doesn't involve the situations where it is an issue. But someone considering going into business where there is a dependence upon the local population for your living income may find it to be a different situation entirely.
I really don't like to get into any discussions about religion unless they are with people I know personally, mostly to just avoid conflict. However, I just want to mention the little bit I know about the LDS dental community. My daughter works for a dental practice in Cody where both dentists are LDS. They have a large practice with several hygienists, assistants, and office staff. My daughter has told me that the fact that the doctors are LDS has had little to do with the practice. The biggest influence she sees is that many members of "the church" are patients because they know the doctors through church. The majority of the staff is not LDS. That doesn't seem to be an issue when it comes to hiring, although, as with any religion, group, etc. the doctors may already know some people through the church, so they may be hired through association. I have a lot of friends who are not LDS who are patients at the practice. I believe that some of them don't even know what faith the doctors are. Again, this is just the little I know about this. I hope this helps you somewhat.
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