Wyoming Bound and looking for a little help... (Cheyenne, Casper: sales, to rent)

[gflamino]

Hello Folks,

We are considering a move to Wyoming or Montana and would really appreciate any insight you might have for us.

Here's a little background. My wife and I have been married for 16 years and we have 5 children ranging in age between 1 and 15; all of the older children are homeschooled. I am self employed and generally work from home as a software designer. My annual income through my business is conservatively just south of 200K.

We have had the good fortune of seeing a large portion of the world and chronologically have lived:

o Currently just south of San Francisco (3 years),
o just north of San Diego (2 years),
o Weisbaden Germany (3 years),
o Warsaw Poland (1 year),
o Algonquin Illinois (3 years),
o north east New Jersey (7 years), but
o both my wife and I grew up in Southern California (Orange and L.A. counties)

Now it time to move again!

We would like to take advantage of my ability to work from home and find a much more scenic, culturally conservative or libertarian, large family friendly location. Someplace with a great quality of life measured in family friendly surroundings. And as are children age I am looking at some serious tuition payments so cost of living is now weighing heavily.

As the children have grown we have become more interested in all things outdoors and very much enjoy camping and planting stuff. So after a little research we've sort of settled on Wyoming and Montana as target areas. I believe the prudent thing would be to rent for the first year or so to establish our own local view – and this is where the big question lay… where?!

The only hard constraint I've been able to identify is a need for broadband access to the Internet. Isn't it amazing?! Oh, I REALLY want a dog. So those are the two musts… fast internet and a dog. I'm technically a small business owner so taxes are concerns too but probably less so than the other issues.

We spend most of our time homeschooling and working in or around the house. We have been active in little league and softball and would like to continue. We eat out very seldom but must every so often just to make sure we remember what it's like to be 'a couple' first and foremost. Not big CostCo or Walmart people, so beyond the need for broadband access, the larger city amenities are not a pluses for us.

[Brian_M]

Well, what kind of scenery do you find appealing? You can get broadband in LOTS of places. for instance, my parents have a retirement home here:

46.745571,-110.876552 - Google Maps

And have Fiber Optic internet/phone planned for this next year, and current DSL/phone. You're not going to get much more "middle of nowhere" than that link.

So, we need to know what you find appealing. Flat open grassy plains? Lots of trees and rolling foothills? Fewer trees and rugged mountains? Larger communities, smaller communities? (smaller is less than 2,000 ~ larger is bigger than that). Do you want to go skiing, snomobiling, mountain biking, dirt biking, hunting, etc...?

You more or less have your pick of where you can live with that income. There are a couple places where the cost of entry is high (Jackson and Sheridan, WY come to mind). Montana has no sales tax, Wyoming has no state income tax... important things to know. I'm not sure about Montana, but the Wyoming library system is Statewide and offers services that rival huge city branches. My local branch has an active homeschooling group and selection of materials (I work for the library system).

As usual, the more details you give, and more restrictions the easier it'll be to narrow it down for you. Oh, you can have a dog anywhere in these 2 states. Heck, if you DON'T have at least one, people will think there's something wrong with you.

[SkunkApe]

Good point on the income tax. Montana is not a low-tax state. The state income tax is on graduated scale , and tops out at a whopping 11% for income in excess of $80,301.

[BennyPhoenix]

Also, while Montana does not have a state sales tax the cities and counties can tax sales and some do.

[WyoNewk]

You'll find Wyoming has much lower taxes -- no state income tax, low property taxes and no sales tax on unprepared food. Sales tax depends a little on the county, but it's generally 4-5 percent.

Many years ago, my first choice for a place to live in Wyoming was Lander. I think I'd stand by that. It's a nice town, nestled at the foot of the highest mountain range in Wyoming. I'd pick Cody, Buffalo and Sheridan in a tie for second place. All the above are at the foot of beautiful mountain ranges and are pleasant, conservative towns.

Jackson Hole is the most scenic area, and I understand that home prices have dropped in the past year, but they're still very expensive. It's also not politically conservative by Wyoming standards. Jackson Hole is in Wyoming but geographically only.

Montana is generally more liberal than Wyoming but has more towns in scenic areas. Whitefish and Kalispell are a couple of my favorite Montana towns. There are many more, but since I've never lived in Montana I'll leave it at that.

[gflamino]

Thanks for your replies, this is all very helpful.

I had looked a bit into the taxes issue and found it's not so straightforward so your posts are very much appreciated. As a small business owner it gets complicated calculating one's true income so I tend to overstate and overpay. Life's tough, eh? But an 11% state income tax in Montana?! I'm sure there's plenty of room for deductions. But 11%, wow!

Regarding locations, I think it'd be nice to find something on a minimum lot size of an acre. As long as it's something supported by a reliable broadband connection we'd prefer the not-to-secluded mountains or foothills. Having moved around a bit we've become accustomed to both small and midsized town living. As far as activities go: we're camping types now, wuhu! So easy access to nature is a definite must. Is there a 'lakes' region where one might put down a canoe?

If you don't mind, could I ask... One of the best places we have lived was in the far western suburbs of Chicago (literally right against the corn fields). It took better than a year before the locals really warmed up to us - standard mid-westerner sensibilities we learned. Our eldest son at the time, an adopted 12 year old Chinese kid, had it the toughest but I suspect no tougher than most kids his age. I think that once people figured we were going to be around for a while they really made us feel welcomed and proved to be the warmest, trusting, and trustworthy neighbors one could ever want to have. Could you comment on the 'folks' in this part of the country? I noticed not a few rants that had definite 'us' versus 'them out-of-stators' vibe. None were racial in word or intent but my wife is Japanese by decent and I'm a first generation Italian American, is there an issue here or just people being people?

As homeschoolers the library is a three time a week trip. And I cannot reiterate more strongly our desire to stay involved with fast-pitch softball and little league baseball. (I guess this puts us back near a mid-sized town, huh?).

My biggest concern related to culture seem to me to be pretty selfish now that I read what I've written: (1) We really are a pretty conservative family with hold libertarian views so our preference would be to find a place where we are no longer outside of the 'mainstream' - hoping America isn't so far gone ;o) (2) College planning and the influence of the children's friends as we begin to discuss the direction of their college education. Our oldest have naturally adopted their parent's views (and biases) and they will hold for a while but we know friends and community will begin to play a more influential role. And, (3) we have always been active in the communities we live (i.e. election workers, meals-on-wheels, coffee every morning downtown) and it'd be nice to no longer be the token conservative.

Finally, I would have never considered having more than one dog would be acceptable. My position has always been that I'm owed a dog after 6 children but this changes the dynamic. Next someone will say hunting is okay too!

Seriously, thank you again for your help.

[SkunkApe]

I moved to Wyoming from Michigan in 2007. I haven't had any trouble fitting in. In as much as I so choose, anyway.

The general advice I was given (and I'm sure you'll get) is: "

"Don't try to change things. We don't care how you did it back it (insert city), that's not how we do it here. If you like it so much back there, just leave."

I like things the way they are here just fine, so I've been happy. In fact, I think they're changing too much. Sooner or later, the busybodies get bored and start meddling, trying to pass laws to make people live the way they think they should.

A couple things to keep in mind if you come to Wyoming:

1) You say you're used to small towns. Wyoming has 500,000 people total. Less population than Alasaka, even. The largest "cities" are Casper and Cheyenne, at about 50,000 people each. I lived in a suburb in Michigan that had 30,000 people. But if I walked across the street, I was in another municipality, with another 40,000 people. And so on, and so forth - the towns but right up to each other. Out here, there's 50,000 in Casper, and maybe 10,000 more in the adjacent towns. Then there's nothing, nobody, for two hours. People are far apart, here.

2) Give some thought to your children. I love it here myself, but I'm in my mid-forties and have lived many places, and can afford to travel. If I was a young man, who'd never lived anywhere else, and didn't have the means to take vacations, I'd probably have a different opinion of Wyoming.

3) People here are very conservative. Libertarian, not so much. Many people have libertarian views, but I think you'll find a very limited understanding of that political philosophy.

Good luck. If you come out for a visit, let me know. I can maybe show you around. I'm in Casper.

[GEORGIAINMT]

Just a thought regarding your children....Wyoming has an online school that is based in Gillette and actually part of the Campbell County school system but available to children anywhere in the state. It is called the Wyoming Virtual School. Students are afforded the curriculum, services, etc. of the neighborhood schools, but they do everything from home. I am a special ed. case manager and we have students with special needs who are enrolled in WVS as well. It's a new concept and is working out very well. Also, I know that here in Gillette there is an active homeschoolers group.

We are also very outdoorsy and into camping. We like it here as we can go to the Big Horn Mountains to the west or to the Black Hills to the east or even out to Keyhole Reservoir less than an hour from here and camp, ride our ATV's, etc. The town has about 25,000 or so people and is progressive. It has a great county library as well as a lot of cultural opportunities for you & your kids for a town this size. An acre of land fairly close to town goes for around $40K-$80K, give or take. I'm a native Wyoming girl who lived in Montana for 14 years and moved back to Wyoming in August. I'll never go back to Montana. Tons of reasons have already been mentioned (taxes, more liberal tree huggers, etc.) but also for lots of our own reasons. I don't try to push Gillette onto anyone, but want people to know our opinion and that we love it here so far! Best wishes to you wherever you go!

[Wyomiles]

gflamino, Have you spent any time in Wyoming? I always advise folks to take a vacation, if they can, and experience Wyoming for themselves. Good advise on towns has already been given and I would add Casper to your list. I have a canoe and a small aluminum boat that I use all the time . There are tons of lakes and a couple of rivers in Wyoming that are fun to float around on. I have spent many years exploring the Windriver range and still have not seen it all. Look for a PM.

[Brian_M]

Well, given what you've said you wanted, I have to agree with another poster above (though I'm biased) and mention Lander, WY. I'm biased because I grew up here, left for 13 years and moved back with my wife. I'm not into sports at all, but I know there's little league baseball. Not so sure about softball (though you could certainly call the Parks and Rec Dept. to ask ~ City of Lander, Wyoming). But it more or less meets your other interests. Hiking, Camping, and Lakes (some that allow motors, at least one that is human/wind power only) are a whopping 15~30 minutes away. You can Easily get into "Wilderness" areas. There's a VERY strong presence of rock climbers here, which may be a new sport/hobby for some of your family.

The town is sustained by 2~3 major "businesses", being State/Local Government and NOLS (NOLS - National Outdoor Leadership School). But we have a very strong presence of small business and arts ~ and it's fairly self contained (the Gov. workers buy local ~ since Gov. jobs aren't going away you get a sustainable community). We happen to also have a great (supposidly, I don't drink coffe) coffee house on main street... since you mentioned that. Lander IS a small town though, about 8,000 people. We do have a neighboring community 26 miles to the east with another 12,000 people. But that's it for about 2 hours in all directions.

I'm getting ready to move again because I don't fit this community anymore. That's because my wife and I are not parents, don't want to be parents and don't really enjoy talking with others who insist on only talking about being parents. Since this is a decidedly family oriented town, what doesn't work for us will likely work very well for you.

On a political standpoint, I'm libertarian through and through and have no problem fitting in here. Most people living in WY at least LEAN that way, so there's not a whole lot of political tension here. Even people who are politically polar opposites (one of the library managers I work with is my opposite) will be some of the most friendly people you meet.

And as for that, the biggest animosity towards outsiders are people trying to change things. SkunkApe nailed it with his quote. There's a lesser negative feeling towards people who sell off their WAY over-priced homes elsewhere in the country (used to be exclusively California ~ I remember a bumper sticker in the 80's that read "Help Beautify WY. Kill a Californian"), move here and change things to resember the way it was "back wherever". I don't see that attitude so much anymore, but I know it's still out here some. Given your families VERY diverse background, so long as you're willing to embrace what WY/MT has to offer and you Want to be part of the community, you'll be accepted. The people that live here, love the area just the way it is. If you come in and love it too, you'll likely never experience anything but open friendliness.