A question about bigotry in Wyoming (Cheyenne, Casper: hotel, house, school)

[wyolady]

Originally Posted by BennyPhoenix

Students dont have free speech in school. They have it out of school.
What you encountered is what I consider an excellent opportunity to educate some kids. I grew up telling and hearing simiilar jokes. It doesn't mean the kids are bad, racist or doomed. It is in most cases just kids being immature(which is what they are). They are in school to learn. Teach them why what they said is wrong. I wouldn't tell them they shouldn't say racist jokes; I would just explain to them why it is not something responsible people do. If they are religious kids I would explain to them that it is a violation of several of God's commandments.
FWIW, the only racist jokes that bother me are the ones that joke about real human suffering or death or killing of people. For example, jokes about lynching, the holocaust are beyond the pale. Jokes that make fun of stereotypes dont irk me to much.

Thanks for weighing in, BennyPhoenix and Sunsprit. I didn't feel at all comfortable with this student pleading "free speech" when offending others, but as someone who respects everyone's opinion, even those who don't agree with mine, I didn't want to trample on his right to free speech.

I DID tell him that I nor anyone else had the right (or ability!) to squelch or control his opinions, ideas or thoughts. Just that in school, his choices must respect the rights of others.

[WyoNewk]

Wyolady,
You're a teacher in YOUR classroom. The Constitution guarantees lots of rights that, I'd hope, are not valid in your classroom -- many not in your school. Let's say you buy into the right to free speech argument. Is the next kid going to say he has the right to bear arms?

I'm not teacher, but I hope classrooms haven't changed to the point that you can't lay down your own set of proper rules, where courtesy and socially acceptable behavior is demanded.

Can't you make the rules for your classroom? These kids look to teachers for proper manners and socially acceptable behavior as much or more than they look to their own parents.

When my kids would argue with me about their "rights", I'd simply tell them "this family is not a democracy, it's a dictatorship, and I'm the dictator."

[BennyPhoenix]

Teach the kids about the first amendment.
It starts out saying "Congress shall make no law...."
You aren't congress so you are the law in the classroom.

[wyolady]

Originally Posted by WyoNewk

Wyolady,
Can't you make the rules for your classroom? These kids look to teachers for proper manners and socially acceptable behavior as much or more than they look to their own parents.

Oh I have plenty of rules in my classroom and one of them is respecting others. But I have fewer rules than I did 20 years ago. Parents of today are quick to get into my business - and my classroom - when it comes to rules.

Funny I mentioned that - the parent of the kid in question visited with me and also argued/declared his son's right to free speech. That's what made me ask the question of you all. He went on to tell me I had no sense of humor if I didn't find the joke funny. Yep - I just nodded my head and said "hmmmmm".

Originally Posted by WyoNewk

When my kids would argue with me about their "rights", I'd simply tell them "this family is not a democracy, it's a dictatorship, and I'm the dictator."

I totally get this one in my house too. "Because I'm the mom, that's why" works incredibly well in my house. My daughter came home and told me a classmate got paid for every A and B they got on their report card. She asked me what she got - I told her she got to live in our house for another semester. And she's only in the 4th grade!!

[Happy in Wyoming]

Originally Posted by wyolady

I agree, BennyPhoenix. There is racism everywhere in the world, and I don't believe it is any worse in Wyoming than anywhere else. The inital poster asked for "honest answers" and I believe that's what he/she is getting - views on the level of bigotry in Wyoming from multiple sides. You also said "But I don't understand why people have fallen for the notion that all races deserve welcome into all areas and should receive slobbering admiration just for being what they
are".

BennyPhoenix didn't say this. I did.

I am personally of the belief that people shouldn't be accepted for their race necessarily, but I (again personally!) believe people SHOULD be welcome into all areas for being what they are - human beings. And from seeing your past posts, I believe you agree. I don't think people should have to prove themselves in order to be accepted. They might disprove themselves by making stupid choices. I know many people will disagree with me on this one, believing people should have to prove themselves before being accepted. Just believe this one is a difference in philosophy.

I'll give my most recent example of what I posted earlier. I am a teacher in a Wyoming public school - won't say where to protect my "sources". I encountered a student just last week in my class that told a joke openly and garnered much laughter - the joke began talking about Obama and ended with "eeny meeny miney moe, catch a (n-word) by the toe". I asked the student not to tell offensive jokes in school and he argued that we don't have any black students in our school. I told him it offended me and said he was entitled to his opinion in his thoughts and outside of school, but that when he voiced the offensive opinions in our school, it wasn't appropriate. He argued that we are a nation of free speech.

Any suggestions on how I handle that one? Does free speech protect something like this?

I should hope it's free speech. Unless the government has now successfully arrogated to itself the right to demand a certain set of beliefs for the members of our society, we have a right to have our own beliefs and express our own beliefs. If the student were telling the joke and disrupting a class that would be something different. But you did not say that he was.

Had I been the boy and had then some knowledge I have now, I should have said, "But madame, it's taken from Kipling's A Counting-Out Song. Kipling is one of the great poets of the English language. Are White poets now forbidden?"

Let the corn be all one sheaf-
And the grapes be all one vine,
Ere our children's teeth are set on edge
By bitter bread and wine.

Kipling, The Stranger

[Clay Lady]

[quote=wyolady;7714144]I'll give my most recent example of what I posted earlier. I am a teacher in a Wyoming public school - won't say where to protect my "sources". I encountered a student just last week in my class that told a joke openly and garnered much laughter - the joke began talking about Obama and ended with "eeny meeny miney moe, catch a (n-word) by the toe". I asked the student not to tell offensive jokes in school and he argued that we don't have any black students in our school. I told him it offended me and said he was entitled to his opinion in his thoughts and outside of school, but that when he voiced the offensive opinions in our school, it wasn't appropriate. He argued that we are a nation of free speech.

Any suggestions on how I handle that one? Does free speech protect something like this?[/quote]

What you said is about all you can really say. You were correct to express that was your opinion. It is important for students to understand there are issues that people have different opinions and your rules are what he is to follow in your classroom. How you talk is making an impression on him. His parents may tell jokes like that. We want to teach our students to think - to learn to make choices.

I have seen far less bigotry in Wyoming than I have in Arkansas but there are far fewer blacks in Wyoming.

After 9-11 I was contracted to develop a program that would address the issue of race for use at the elementary level. I used work by the various artists of the world. The students did a small project representative of the different styles without ever seeing the artist. They wrote about where in the world the artist may live and when. The next step was to "meet" the artist and locate his country on the map. We found out about their familes, their homes, etc. The desired outcome was they develop an understanding that different is just different and not something to fear.

[ElkHunter]

Free speech in the classroom. What a hoot. Would never work.

I firmly believe that free speech is a right to be excersized at appropriate times. Not some 8th grader rambling on about widgits in the middle of English Lit.

Also, and this is the biggy. When he or she, turns 18 and has the rights granted by the Constitution, then he or she may excersize them. Until then, not a chance.

[wyolady]

Originally Posted by Happy in Wyoming

I should hope it's free speech. Unless the government has now successfully arrogated to itself the right to demand a certain set of beliefs for the members of our society, we have a right to have our own beliefs and express our own beliefs. If the student were telling the joke and disrupting a class that would be something different. But you did not say that he was.

Had I been the boy and had then some knowledge I have now, I should have said, "But madame, it's taken from Kipling's A Counting-Out Song. Kipling is one of the great poets of the English language. Are White poets now forbidden?"

Let the corn be all one sheaf-
And the grapes be all one vine,
Ere our children's teeth are set on edge
By bitter bread and wine.

Kipling, The Stranger

I apologize for giving credit to BennyPhoenix for your statement. And if my class were an English class and we were studying Kipling, his comments may have been appropriate. But my original post indicated this was a punchline to an inappropriate joke. I didn't specify the circumstances, but telling an inappropriate joke would definitely be considered a classroom disturbance.

Sorry I hijacked this thread. I'll finish by posing this scenario - if every student in a classroom were allowed to exercise their right to free speech at every moment by telling inappropriate jokes or making comments not related to the learning task at hand, but related to their opinion, how much learning do you think would go on?

[mfromva]

I want to thank everyone for sharing their experiences, views, opinions, and observations. Having considered what was said here, as well as my own personal experiences and observations, I realized that there *IS* more racial bigotry in larger cities than smaller towns.

Also, I'm happy to report, that because of the responses in this thread, questions I've asked elsewhere, and through our own research, my wife is no longer apprehensive about moving to Wyoming, but becoming rather excited about it!

We're planning a long trip there this coming summer, and will be looking around in a few towns to determine where to move to when we leave Virginia. Right now it looks like it's going to be Cheyenne, but we're also going to be looking at Laramie and Casper. It will be the first step into our relocation to Wyoming, finished by the purchase of a home or land on which to build a home a year or two after the move.

While it's still being planned, we're thinking of doing the trip anywhere from mid-July to mid-August. We're on the fence about Frontier Days in Cheyenne, because while we would like to experience one of the largest festivals in the state, hotel room rates go up and we have a budget to maintain.

The working plan is to fly into Denver, rent a car, and spend two weeks driving around Wyoming. It's currently looking like it would go:

Cheyenne -> Laramie -> Jackson -> Casper -> Cheyenne

Jackson is in there because we'll be spending about four days "vacationing" there (time in Jackson, The Grand Tetons, and Yellowstone). We're not looking at moving to Jackson as our first step into the state, or as our "final destination" when we buy a home or land. However, as we travel from Laramie to Jackson, we'll be passing through Pinedale, and I'm looking VERY hard at the Pinedale area as our "final destination" area.

One thing that's up in the air right now is the route from Yellowstone to Casper. I'm not sure if we should go via Thermopolis and check out that town, or via Buffalo and Gillette. Your thoughts?

[Drew303]

I am mixed black and white, and I grew up in Casper Wyoming, lived there till I was 18. There is definitely ignorance when it comes to other races, since Wyoming is 99.99% white. I dont feel like reading through all of these posts but your wife will get stared at, and whispered about, but I don't think anything will be said to your or her face.