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Old 08-18-2021, 03:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
I am guessing that you live on the west coast. Do you mind if I ask what ethnicity your sister's son is?
The situation does sound difficult for her and for her son.
I do live on the West Coast, in Southern California. My sister lives in Spokane, WA. It is slowly becoming more ethnically diverse, but when we were there this summer, it still looked very "white" to my eyes.

My nephew's birth parents were indigenous Central Americans. He has dark hair and eyes, darker skin than many people who identify as Black in the US.
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Old 08-18-2021, 06:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sassybluesy View Post
What I bolded...what's the alternative? I'm sincerely asking. It's HER baby, until she signs over her rights. Yes, she has a precious commodity. Do you think the baby should go to whoever throws the most money at it?
Adoption agencies currently have bidding contests for the right to adopt the child. They use the code phrase "birth mother expenses." Do you really believe that average birth mother expenses are in excess of $30,000? That seems pretty close to "whoever throws the most money at it?" But because an adoption agency is doing it, it does not meet the legal definition of baby selling.

I agree with you that it's the birth mother's baby and she is 100% correct to parent her child. But I don't think it should be legal or ethical for her to extort monies from multiple couples for the chance to adopt her child just because an adoption agency(s) is/are fronting for her.
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Old 08-19-2021, 07:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xy340 View Post
Adoption agencies currently have bidding contests for the right to adopt the child. They use the code phrase "birth mother expenses." Do you really believe that average birth mother expenses are in excess of $30,000? That seems pretty close to "whoever throws the most money at it?" But because an adoption agency is doing it, it does not meet the legal definition of baby selling.

I agree with you that it's the birth mother's baby and she is 100% correct to parent her child. But I don't think it should be legal or ethical for her to extort monies from multiple couples for the chance to adopt her child just because an adoption agency(s) is/are fronting for her.



I gave a child up for adoption. I'm familiar with the concept of birth mother expenses. And yes, actually, I CAN conceive of the concept that it'd be that high. I guess I don't understand how EVERYONE is paying for the child. The only people who paid for MY expenses were the couple I chose to adopt my son. And if I remember correctly, my hospital expenses were $18,000...and it was a normal labor and delivery with no complications. I guess I could've had the adopting couple pay for my maternity clothes, and maybe cover my bills, if I couldn't continue working...


So yeah, actually, I CAN see how it gets pretty expensive.
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Old 08-19-2021, 08:13 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sassybluesy View Post
I gave a child up for adoption. I'm familiar with the concept of birth mother expenses. And yes, actually, I CAN conceive of the concept that it'd be that high. I guess I don't understand how EVERYONE is paying for the child. The only people who paid for MY expenses were the couple I chose to adopt my son. And if I remember correctly, my hospital expenses were $18,000...and it was a normal labor and delivery with no complications. I guess I could've had the adopting couple pay for my maternity clothes, and maybe cover my bills, if I couldn't continue working...


So yeah, actually, I CAN see how it gets pretty expensive.
My understanding is that medical expenses related to the birth of the child are separate expense items. Most states have separate sub-sections in their laws dealing with the payment of medical expenses. And most state Medicare programs pay for the majority of these medical expenses. Birth Mother Expenses are defined various ways depending which state law we are discussing. But in a general terms, birth mother expenses are the expenses paid on the birth mother behalf for rent, clothing, food, cell phone, etc. Most states have a limit somewhere around 3k to 5k. Certain states have no limits and a majority of the private infant adoptions happen in these states. Based upon the clients we represented against adoption agencies, the birth mother expenses were acceptable in state A who had a limit on birth mother expenses of 3k. But then another adoption agency moved the birth mother to state b where the birth mother expenses were limited to 5k. Then a third adoption agency moved the birth mother to state c, where there were no birth mother expenses limits. She received $35,000 in direct payments upon signing finalization paperwork from hopeful adoptive couple C via adoption agency C. Hopeful adoptive couple A and B were out their birth mother expenses monies (3k and 5k respectively) and adoption agencies A and B have not been able to rematch them. Both agencies claim that they are compliant with their contracts and that the couples are at fault for refusing to pay the birth mother expenses that hopeful adoptive couple C paid. I would also add that this is legal in state c because they did everything via an adoption agency.

This is unfortunately the state of affairs with domestic infant adoption in 2021.

Last edited by xy340; 08-19-2021 at 08:36 AM..
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Old 08-19-2021, 08:20 AM
 
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I was a long time ago for me...and all I know is, I didn't go through all that. But I believe you. I only have my own experience to compare to.
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Old 08-19-2021, 02:44 PM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saibot View Post
I do live on the West Coast, in Southern California. My sister lives in Spokane, WA. It is slowly becoming more ethnically diverse, but when we were there this summer, it still looked very "white" to my eyes.

My nephew's birth parents were indigenous Central Americans. He has dark hair and eyes, darker skin than many people who identify as Black in the US.
Southern CA would be different. The PNW is becoming more diverse, but I can see where the child could have some issues there.
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Old 10-06-2021, 09:09 PM
bu2
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
You are correct. NO infant languishes in foster care! Even drug-exposed infants are adopted right away.

The sad part is the number of chances birth "mothers" are given. Many of them, children themselves. By the time they are available for adoption, they have been through multiple foster care placements, abuse, neglect, and the emotional torture of not knowing where they were going next. Many are murdered, molested or beaten by one of the birth mother's "boyfriends". Of course, they are emotionally damaged.

The system should favor the right of the child, not that of a teenager who never intended to create a family in the first place.
One of the reasons we chose to adopt internationally instead of domestically.

The laws have bent way too far towards the interest of the birth parents and away from the child.
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Old 10-06-2021, 09:13 PM
bu2
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
Adoption overseas is all but a thing of the past. Most countries do not want to look as though they can't take care of their own, and have made adoption almost impossible. There are other reasons. Some of them political.

They want to save face All of these countries are Eastern European and Asian. They were the most popular countries in the late 1990s through 2010s. Since I once worked in international adoption, and adopted a child internationally, I kept track of what countries are still open. Even Korea, which I believe was the first country to permit International Adoption, has become difficult and has dramatically decreased international adoptions. Russia, closed down years ago. As did Kazakhstan.

The Anti Adoption folks who frequent this site have a proverbial "axe to grind". Many, if not most, adoptees are happy with their legal families. They are happy with their adoption. Admittedly, they know the alternative. Some know other children who were not matched with families.

A couple of years ago, a Ukrainian boy who we hosted, befriended me on Facebook. Soon after I found out that the adoption that was formed from his stay in the US, was far less than perfect. He had a falling out with his father, who's ridged and unrealistic expectations were not met. However, he and his sister were brought to this country. They stayed together. I saw that the man and his wife were a bit "old school" for these two children, and my recommendation was for adoption with a more flexible, yet capable family, able to set firm boundaries while understanding that it is no longer the 1950s.

When no one else stepped forward, , my husband and I discussed this together and with our children. We decided that we had room in our hearts and home for two more.
The problem with Ukraine was that we already had paperwork submitted for an unrelated boy we had hosted and visited twice.

My recommendation was for another family and it was denied. They had the money, and passed the home study.

Meanwhile, the boy who had spent Winter Break and Christmas with us, had a final court hearing. She pleaded with the court with more months to "get her act together". They granted her more time.

In the end, he was reconciled with a woman he hardly knew at age ten, The age he could be left alone and sent to the store. We have not seen him since. Odds are not in our favor.

Meanwhile, I asked forgiveness to the young man and his sister who we did not adopt. After all, his father by adoption through both kids out of the house when they did not meet his unyielding standards.
The girl finished High School and married young. The boy was kicked out at 16 before he finished HS. He couch surfed with friends and finally just couldn't make it.

His adoptive father had a fixation with the military and told him to enlist. He warned him that no one would pay for college if he was not a vet. The boy had done his own research and knew that in the US, if you are adopted after a certain age, there are subsidies to help make college or trade school a reality.

When I apologized for the adoption the boy said "I know you tried. I appreciate it. But all I know is that all of my friends from Ukraine who weren't adopted are either drug addicts, or they returned to their moms who are drug addicts or drunks, and made them steal for them. Some are dead. Some are in jail, some are addicts. I didn't get a good family, but I got a computer, and I found out how to look out for myself. At least I am alive.

He completed high school and a year of technical college with us. Now he has an associate degree and a trade as an EMT.

He knows that return to his BM or the orphanage would have been a disaster.
When we adopted we asked the people at the baby house if they were sad when the children left for adoption as they clearly were attached to some of them. They said no, they were sad when the children got older and moved on to the orphanage since they would likely never find a family.
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Old 10-06-2021, 11:23 PM
 
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I was a social worker in the 80’s working with abused children in foster care. Birth parents were given too many chances to get their kids back. Social workers can only recommend but judges make the decisions. Often by the time the children are 2 or 3 they are fairly damaged which makes eventual adoption more difficult. Some foster parents are great and some are just in it for the money. It’s heartbreaking work.

I went back to graduate school for a different career when a social worker I worked with was brutally murdered because she was trying to sever parental rights for a few kids on her caseload where horrific abuse had occurred. Don’t blame the social workers.
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Old 10-08-2021, 02:21 PM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
24,096 posts, read 32,443,737 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teacher Terry View Post
I was a social worker in the 80’s working with abused children in foster care. Birth parents were given too many chances to get their kids back. Social workers can only recommend but judges make the decisions. Often by the time the children are 2 or 3 they are fairly damaged which makes eventual adoption more difficult. Some foster parents are great and some are just in it for the money. It’s heartbreaking work.

I went back to graduate school for a different career when a social worker I worked with was brutally murdered because she was trying to sever parental rights for a few kids on her caseload where horrific abuse had occurred. Don’t blame the social workers.
It sounds as though she was a "case worker" as opposed to an MSW licensed social worker.

In any case, that's horrible.
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