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Actually, the social controls in ancient societies to ensure responsible male behavior were a lot stronger than you present it.
Not really. Because the past is gone, people tend to reinvent it as a perfectly, glorious place. There's substantial evidence that it was not so.
Example many societies, when they conquered other societies, killed the men off and the victorious side took the women and children as slaves. Is this responsible?
But people somehow miss this when they talk about the good ol' days. Men in power often had concubines.
Not really. Because the past is gone, people tend to reinvent it as a perfectly, glorious place. There's substantial evidence that it was not so.
No, I don't see it as "glorious" at all. But I do see it as closer to the hard needs of survival, where those who didn't pull their own weight could not be allowed to threaten the viability of the community.
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Example many societies, when they conquered other societies, killed the men off and the victorious side took the women and children as slaves. Is this responsible?
Certainly it is. How else were they going to get the women they needed?
Having concubines is not indicative of a lack of social male responsibility. Actually, a male who had a harem needed to be even more responsible for them.
Old societies could marry 13 year olds (or younger) off to grown men. There were no drug and alcohol texts for jobs. Also while one might get marginalized, generally speaking prostitution wasn't illegal.
It was the norm for wealthy men to have children by multiple women. There was no child support so if the man didn't want to acknowledge, he did not.
There's archaeological evidence (from tissue samples of dead bodies) of drug AND alcohol use, and writings about it.
Point blank, you're simply wrong and irrational due to daddy issues.
What does marriage age or prostitution have to do with drugs?
Even today there are places where kids get married as teenagers, yet where you get into serious trouble when you take drugs. Think of some of those countries ending in -stan.
As I said, nobody says there were no drugs or alcohol in the distant past. But, there was no widespread abuse that turned a certain part of society into useless, sick, broke wrecks. Feel free to link to credible sources saying otherwise.
My view is: Taking recreational drugs is wrong, period.
No, I don't see it as "glorious" at all. But I do see it as closer to the hard needs of survival, where those who didn't pull their own weight could not be allowed to threaten the viability of the community.
Certainly it is. How else were they going to get the women they needed?
Having concubines is not indicative of a lack of social male responsibility. Actually, a male who had a harem needed to be even more responsible for them.
Owning a slave is not responsible in the modern sense and you know it. Responsible? How is beating a woman and making her work for you responsible?
What does marriage age or prostitution have to do with drugs?
Even today there are places where kids get married as teenagers, yet where you get into serious trouble when you take drugs. Think of some of those countries ending in -stan.
As I said, nobody says there were no drugs or alcohol in the distant past. But, there was no widespread abuse that turned a certain part of society into useless, sick, broke wrecks. Feel free to link to credible sources saying otherwise.
My view is: Taking recreational drugs is wrong, period.
Do you want to marry your 13 year old girl or younger daughter to a man? Muhammed marry one of his wives, Aisha, when she was SIX years old. Do you want to marry your six year old to a grown man?
And yes they had weed and quat recreationally in the middle east.
In today's world, having sex with someone that young will get you locked up in prison for quite sometime. Drug users don't get locked up. Dealers do, but that depends on the drugs and whether or not it's illegal in the jurisdiction. Marijuana is legal in certain states and countries, and various forms of coca are legal in some countries. Other jurisdictions simply don't enforce drug laws.
But generally speaking most people would think pedophilia is much worse than someone partying. A sex offender conviction ruins your life indefinitely, and the pervert has to register as a sex offender.
Owning a slave is not responsible in the modern sense and you know it. Responsible? How is beating a woman and making her work for you responsible?
You're now attempting to make a rhetorical end-run by arguing a different point from a self-invented definition.
The discussion tangent had been about whether ancient people tolerated a significant segment of society being unable to take responsibility for the continuance of their society.
You're talking about modern concepts of "social justice," which has nothing to do with people taking responsibility for the continuance of their society. Some modern concepts of social justice, to a great extent, wouldn't even have physically worked in a pre-industrial society--Third Wave feminism being a major example.
You're now attempting to make a rhetorical end-run by arguing a different point from a self-invented definition.
The discussion tangent had been about whether ancient people tolerated a significant segment of society being unable to take responsibility for the continuance of their society.
You're talking about modern concepts of "social justice," which has nothing to do with people taking responsibility for the continuance of their society. Some modern concepts of social justice, to a great extent, wouldn't even have physically worked in a pre-industrial society--Third Wave feminism being a major example.
What is taking responsibility for the continuance of their society? That in of itself is ill defined.
We do know from archaelogical and even written evidence they did alcohol and other drugs. We do know that were beggars and prostitutes, etc. In short an underclass is not new, at least from the times people could write.
Prehistoric times is another matter. If you go back to hunter/gather societies before people started using money and when they were more similar to the great apes, you might have a point. To get rid of the stuff you hate (all forms of materialism and substance abuse to the extent people do it) you'd have to go back to ape level.
But get this, humans are not the only species to get high or drunk. Monkey will steal drinks and love getting drunk, and cats get high off catnip and certain other plants.
Do you want to marry your 13 year old girl or younger daughter to a man? Muhammed marry one of his wives, Aisha, when she was SIX years old. Do you want to marry your six year old to a grown man?
And yes they had weed and quat recreationally in the middle east.
In today's world, having sex with someone that young will get you locked up in prison for quite sometime. Drug users don't get locked up. Dealers do, but that depends on the drugs and whether or not it's illegal in the jurisdiction. Marijuana is legal in certain states and countries, and various forms of coca are legal in some countries. Other jurisdictions simply don't enforce drug laws.
But generally speaking most people would think pedophilia is much worse than someone partying. A sex offender conviction ruins your life indefinitely, and the pervert has to register as a sex offender.
The thing is, up until not long ago even in the West there were fixed roles both men and women had to play in society. Men had to go to work and provide for the family, which was a must, staying single was not an option. Thus they simply could not hang around stoned, it would not have been accepted. Today you can get help from organizations if your family disposes of you because of your drug addiction, but that was not the case in the past. You were simply lost if your family kicked you out and your reputation was ruined, which happened very easily as there was no anonymity and privacy, yet.
The thing is, up until not long ago even in the West there were fixed roles both men and women had to play in society. Men had to go to work and provide for the family, which was a must, staying single was not an option. Thus they simply could not hang around stoned, it would not have been accepted. Today you can get help from organizations if your family disposes of you because of your drug addiction, but that was not the case in the past. You were simply lost if your family kicked you out and your reputation was ruined, which happened very easily as there was no anonymity and privacy, yet.
You claim that ancient society was this carefree, problem free place. And there you go again, claiming men could not hang out and get stoned.
Of course they hung out and got stoned. Various forms of drugs have been cultivated for thousands of years. There's substantial literature and archaeological evidence on this. Clearly you don't have a good education beyond indocrination and beyond daddy issues. Daddy was bad for drinking booze, and back in the old days (a few generations before daddy) all men were hard working, perfect husbands
As noted, it was also possible for them to marry girls, and in some cases outright children. Something which you seem to be okay with. I guess don't live the little ones around you (Alec Baldwin as Donald Trump on SNL said, "I love the children so much I marry them!")
You claim that ancient society was this carefree, problem free place. And there you go again, claiming men could not hang out and get stoned.
Of course they hung out and got stoned. Various forms of drugs have been cultivated for thousands of years. There's substantial literature and archaeological evidence on this. Clearly you don't have a good education beyond indocrination and beyond daddy issues. Daddy was bad for drinking booze, and back in the old days (a few generations before daddy) all men were hard working, perfect husbands
As noted, it was also possible for them to marry girls, and in some cases outright children. Something which you seem to be okay with. I guess don't live the little ones around you (Alec Baldwin as Donald Trump on SNL said, "I love the children so much I marry them!")
Societies hundreds of years ago were very conservative. The reason men married teenagers in some societies is that those were very conservative, read patriarchal and superstitious/religious.
And, for the xth time, just because drugs were not unknown in the distant past (which nobody here denies), does not mean that people got stoned, addicted, and a burden to the society the way it happens today.
Your logic is that just because there were early cars 100 years ago, the world of cars is still the same as it was 100 years ago, or that almost everyone had a car like in the West today.
Or think of binge drinking. Just because there was wine 2000 years ago does not mean that people back then engaged in regular binge drinking like Brits do today.
And what is your silly "daddy issues" remark about? I am very sober and simply observed what alcohol can do to people, turning them into animals that make everyone around them feel miserable. My father was a study object and an inverse role model, i.e. someone never to emulate.
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