New DNA Study Proves Real Origin of Ancient Egyptians (westerners, culture, 2013)
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This one will cause a serious blow to the Afrocentrics and Panafricanists that make a big deal out of Ancient Egypt and Ancient Egyptians. It turns out, if we are to believe the newest DNA study, that they are related more to the Middle East and Europe and not so much with black Africans.
A few excerpts from the article:
Ancient Egypt ends with the death of Cleopatra in the year 30 before Christ is born (30 years before Jesus). The following quote suggests that black African genes began to appear in Egypt at around the year 517 after Christ, a good 547 years after Ancient Egypt ended.
For comparison sake, currently it has been 524 years since Christopher Columbus discovered America. Food for thought.
Yes, those non-Black Africans who came into ancient Africa from Europe and the Middle East who happen to also be the descendants of the Black Africans who left Africa during the early human migration out of Africa.
Even if your sources are valid, the further back you go in human history, the more your argument falls apart. Since you're so obsessed color and race, here is a fun fact for you. The original people of Europe, Middle East, etc were Black Africans. I'll let that sink in for a moment.
Last edited by gwillyfromphilly; 06-03-2017 at 01:32 PM..
I agree there is so much that is still unknown but this study is solid a I really had intended on posting it myself but hadn't figured out yet how I wanted to frame the Op however I wouldn't have framed it into a white vs black debate. These are getting tiresome.
This one will cause a serious blow to the Afrocentrics and Panafricanists that make a big deal out of Ancient Egypt and Ancient Egyptians. It turns out, if we are to believe the newest DNA study, that they are related more to the Middle East and Europe and not so much with black Africans.
A few excerpts from the article:
Ancient Egypt ends with the death of Cleopatra in the year 30 before Christ is born (30 years before Jesus). The following quote suggests that black African genes began to appear in Egypt at around the year 517 after Christ, a good 547 years after Ancient Egypt ended.
For comparison sake, currently it has been 524 years since Christopher Columbus discovered America. Food for thought.
The thing that baffles me most, is the fact that this fine team of scientists spent any amount of money and time to conduct this study. I offer the following:
1. Africans have never done anything noteworthy, historically speaking. Sure, Egypt, or Kemet, as the Afrocentrists like to call it, is on the African continent. Sure, the Cairo Museum is rife with sculptures depicting that person with a broad flat nose and prognathy. Many of these sculptures depict Black people. However, we all know that the Nubians were Black. We'll give them that one. These sculptures are primarily kept in the back, where they belong!
2. NEVER in the annals of history has science been plagued with racism, NEVER! Without question, I dismiss any claim to the contrary.
3. It please me greatly that we have ignored the "eye witness" accounts of Herodotus, who claims that the ancient Egyptians were black or brown skinned, had flat noses, frissy [sic] or wooly hair, and had a protruding jaw (prognathy). The guy is obviously a nut!
Perhaps this study will quiet the nuts, I mean Afrocentrists. That said, I highly doubt it!
There was a disnasty of black pharaohs, after the disappearance of older, middle eastern ones. They lasted 10 pharaosh or so, then came hitites, assirians and finally, macedonians.hellenistic and Romans and the worst plague, christians, followed by a similar places, islamist, etc.
Egypt did not like blacks, above the third or forth cataract there's a big sign made of black basalts that says "if you are black, don't go further" - further north.
The thing that baffles me most, is the fact that this fine team of scientists spent any amount of money and time to conduct this study. I offer the following:
1. Africans have never done anything noteworthy, historically speaking. Sure, Egypt, or Kemet, as the Afrocentrists like to call it, is on the African continent. Sure, the Cairo Museum is rife with sculptures depicting that person with a broad flat nose and prognathy. Many of these sculptures depict Black people. However, we all know that the Nubians were Black. We'll give them that one. These sculptures are primarily kept in the back, where they belong!
2. NEVER in the annals of history has science been plagued with racism, NEVER! Without question, I dismiss any claim to the contrary.
3. It please me greatly that we have ignored the "eye witness" accounts of Herodotus, who claims that the ancient Egyptians were black or brown skinned, had flat noses, frissy [sic] or wooly hair, and had a protruding jaw (prognathy). The guy is obviously a nut!
Perhaps this study will quiet the nuts, I mean Afrocentrists. That said, I highly doubt it!
Herodotus did not say that they were black. Nor did any other ancient author.
Herodotus described Egytpians as differant from Nubians. He describe the Egyptian race as "melanchroes." Melanchroes is a word that Greeks used to describe swarthy, possibly Pelasgian people of their own race. "Ethiope" is what black Africans are called, and no one ever used the word Ethiope to describe Egytpians, and in fact used the word to SEPARATE blacks from Egytpians.
Here is a part of the Odyssey in which Odysseus is described as melenchroes:
With this, Athena touched him [Odysseus] with her golden wand. A well-washed cloak and a tunic she first of all cast about his breast, and she increased his stature and his youthful bloom. Once more he grew dark of color [melanchroiês], and his cheeks filled out, and dark grew the beard about his chin.
Herodotus actually said that Egytpians and Ethiopians were different:
After this man the priest enumerate to me from a papyrus the names of other Kings, three hundred and thirty in number; and in all these generations of men eighteen were Ethiopians, one was a woman and the rest were men and of Egyptian race.
I have actually read Herodotus, as well as Xenophon, Thucydides, Polybius, Tacitus, Livy, Ammianius, the Augustin Scribe, Arrian, Jospephus, Caesar, Cicero, Plato, Euripides, Sophocles, Aeschylus, Ovid, Dio, Apuleus, Virgil, Homer, Hesiod, and a host of others. I am so sick and tired of people who have never read even one of them quoting the ancients to further an agenda.
Herodotus did not say that they were black. Nor did any other ancient author.
Herodotus described Egytpians as differant from Nubians. He describe the Egyptian race as "melanchroes." Melanchroes is a word that Greeks used to describe swarthy, possibly Pelasgian people of their own race. "Ethiope" is what black Africans are called, and no one ever used the word Ethiope to describe Egytpians, and in fact used the word to SEPARATE blacks from Egytpians.
Here is a part of the Odyssey in which Odysseus is described as melenchroes:
With this, Athena touched him [Odysseus] with her golden wand. A well-washed cloak and a tunic she first of all cast about his breast, and she increased his stature and his youthful bloom. Once more he grew dark of color [melanchroiês], and his cheeks filled out, and dark grew the beard about his chin.
Herodotus actually said that Egytpians and Ethiopians were different:
After this man the priest enumerate to me from a papyrus the names of other Kings, three hundred and thirty in number; and in all these generations of men eighteen were Ethiopians, one was a woman and the rest were men and of Egyptian race.
I have actually read Herodotus, as well as Xenophon, Thucydides, Polybius, Tacitus, Livy, Ammianius, the Augustin Scribe, Arrian, Jospephus, Caesar, Cicero, Plato, Euripides, Sophocles, Aeschylus, Ovid, Dio, Apuleus, Virgil, Homer, Hesiod, and a host of others. I am so sick and tired of people who have never read even one of them quoting the ancients to further an agenda.
I'm curious. Not rejecting your analysis, but how do you explain the sourced narratives below (per wikipedia)? From my basic review of the sources, it appears to be that there is legitimate disagreement on what some of the ancients meant by certain terms. Note, I include the entire passage, which both arguments for and against the black ancient Egyptian model. Even the anti-black theory Egyptologists I know don't reject all of the translations of Herodotus, etc., but instead call into question how reliable they are. And before someone mentions it, no wikipedia in itself is not a good source, which is why its key to look at wikipedia articles that are independently sourced; of course, this still wouldn't take away the possibility of error/etc. in such articles.
Quote:
The Black African model relied heavily on the interpretation of the writings of Classical historians, who were writing during and after the time when Egypt was a province of the Persian Empire, i.e. long after the golden age of pharaohic Egypt had passed and when Egypt was full of foreigners. Several Ancient Greek historians noted that Egyptians had complexions that were "melanchroes".[37] There is considerable controversy over the translation of melanchroes. Most scholars translate it as black.[38][39][40][41][42][43][44] Alan B Lloyd wrote that "there is no linguistic justification for relating this description to negroes. Melanchroes could denote any colour from bronzed to black and negroes are not the only physical type to show curly hair. These characteristics would certainly be found in many Egs [Egyptians], ancient and modern, but they are at variance with what we should expect amongst the inhabitants of the Caucasus area.[45] Some of the most often quoted historians are Strabo, Diodorus Siculus, and Herodotus.[38]
Herodotus states in a few passages that the Egyptians were black/dark. According to most translations, Herodotus states that a Greek oracle was known to be from Egypt because she was "black", that the natives of the Nile region are "black with heat", and that Egyptians were "black skinned with woolly hair".[39]
Lucian observes an Egyptian boy and notices that he is not merely black, but has thick lips.[38] Diodorus Siculus mentioned that the Aethiopians considered the Egyptians a colony.[46] Appollodorus, a Greek, calls Egypt the country of the black footed ones.[38] Aeschylus, a Greek poet, wrote that Egyptian seamen had "black limbs."[47] Greeks sometimes referred to Egyptians as Aethiopians[48] – not to be confused with inhabitants of the modern-day nation of Ethiopia who were instead referred to as Abyssinians or Habesha and their land as Abyssinia.
Gaston Maspero states that "by the almost unanimous testimony of ancient [Greek] historians, they [Ancient Egyptians] belonged to the African race, which settled in Ethiopia."[49][50] Simson Najovits states that Herodotus "made clear ethnic and national distinctions between Aigyptios (Egyptians) and the peoples whom the Greeks referred to as Aithiops (Ethiopians)."[51]
Many scholars (Aubin, Heeren, Davidson, Diop, Poe, Welsby, Celenko, Volney, Montet, Bernal, Jackson, DuBois, Strabo), ancient and modern, routinely cite Herodotus in their works on the Nile Valley. Some of these scholars (Welsby, Heeren, Aubin, Diop, etc.) explicitly mention the reliability of Herodotus' work on the Nile Valley and demonstrate corroboration of Herodotus' writings by modern scholars. Welsby said that "archaeology graphically confirms some of Herodotus' observations."[52] A.H.L. Heeren (1838) quoted Herodotus throughout his work and provided corroboration by scholars of his day regarding several passages (source of the Nile, location of Meroe, etc.).[53] To further his work on the Egyptians and Assyrians, Aubin uses Herodotus' accounts in various passages and defends Herodotus' position against modern scholars. Aubin said Herodotus was "the author of the first important narrative history of the world" and that Herodotus "visited Egypt."[54] Diop provides several examples (e.g. the inundations of the Nile) that he claims support his view that Herodotus was "quite scrupulous, objective, scientific for his time." Diop also claims that:
Herodotus "always distinguishes carefully between what he has seen and what he has been told";
"One must grant that he was at least capable of recognizing the skin color of inhabitants."[55]
"For all the writers who preceded the ludicrous and vicious falsifications of modern Egyptology, and the contemporaries of the ancient Egyptians (Herodotus, Aristotle, Diodorus, Strabo, and others), the Black identity of the Egyptian was an evident fact."
Snowden claims that Diop "not only distorts his classical sources but also omits reference to Greek and Latin authors who specifically call attention to the physical differences between Egyptians and Ethiopians."[56] Diop also claims that Strabo corroborated Herodotus' ideas about the Black Egyptians, Aethiopians, and Colchians.[15][49] About the claim of Herodotus that the Pharaoh Sesostris campaigned in Europe, and that he left a colony in Colchia, Fehling states that "there is not the slightest bit of history behind the whole story".[57]
Many scholars regard the works of Herodotus as being unreliable as historical sources. Fehling writes of "a problem recognized by everybody", namely that much of what Herodotus tells us cannot be taken at face value.[57] Sparks writes that "In antiquity, Herodotus had acquired the reputation of being unreliable, biased, parsimonious in his praise of heroes, and mendacious".[58][59][60][61][62] Najovits writes that “Herodotus fantasies and inaccuracies are legendary.”[63] Voltaire and Hartog both described Herodotus as the "father of lies".[64][65]
The reliability of Herodotus is particularly criticized when writing about Egypt. Alan B. Lloyd states that as a historical document, the writings of Herodotus are seriously defective, and that he was working from "inadequate sources".[66] Nielsen writes that: "Though we cannot entirely rule out the possibility of Herodotus having been in Egypt, it must be said that his narrative bears little witness to it."[67] Fehling states that Herodotus never traveled up the Nile River, and that almost everything he says about Egypt and Aethiopia is doubtful.[57][68]
Supporters of the Black theory saw the Aethiopians and Egyptians as racially and culturally similar,[46][69] while others felt that the Ancient Egyptians and Aethiopians were two ethnically distinct groups.[70] This is one of the most popular and controversial arguments for this theory.[71][72] Snowden mentions that Greeks and Romans knew of "negroes of a red, copper-colored complexion...among African tribes",[73] and proponents of the Black theory believed that the Black racial grouping was comprehensive enough to absorb the red and black skinned images in Ancient Egyptian iconography.[73] The British Africanist Basil Davidson stated "Whether the Ancient Egyptians were as black or as brown in skin color as other Africans may remain an issue of emotive dispute; probably, they were both. Their own artistic conventions painted them as pink, but pictures on their tombs show they often married queens shown as entirely black, being from the south : while the Greek writers reported that they were much like all the other Africans whom the Greeks knew."[74]
My take: the lines that the ancient Egyptians were either completely all black or completely all non-black are complete and utter BS, especially when you consider the many different periods of ancient Egypt. Ancient Egypt looked different at different times, and the idea of interracial mixing, even with black Africans, is not implausible (in fact, its very plausible). In a point that is not in much contention, the Nubian and ancient Egyptian relationships meant different things at different times. It was often very economic-based, and there were periods where each civilization ruled over the other. At the very least, I find it hard to believe that there was no cohabitation between these two (and other) civilizations. Again, just like the theory that all of ancient Egypt was a black civilization sounds loony and goes against the great weight of evidence, so does the theory which completely rejects black African influence/mixing within ancient Egyptian history.
Herodotus did not say that they were black. Nor did any other ancient author.
Herodotus described Egytpians as differant from Nubians. He describe the Egyptian race as "melanchroes." Melanchroes is a word that Greeks used to describe swarthy, possibly Pelasgian people of their own race. "Ethiope" is what black Africans are called, and no one ever used the word Ethiope to describe Egytpians, and in fact used the word to SEPARATE blacks from Egytpians.
Here is a part of the Odyssey in which Odysseus is described as melenchroes:
With this, Athena touched him [Odysseus] with her golden wand. A well-washed cloak and a tunic she first of all cast about his breast, and she increased his stature and his youthful bloom. Once more he grew dark of color [melanchroiês], and his cheeks filled out, and dark grew the beard about his chin.
Herodotus actually said that Egytpians and Ethiopians were different:
After this man the priest enumerate to me from a papyrus the names of other Kings, three hundred and thirty in number; and in all these generations of men eighteen were Ethiopians, one was a woman and the rest were men and of Egyptian race.
I have actually read Herodotus, as well as Xenophon, Thucydides, Polybius, Tacitus, Livy, Ammianius, the Augustin Scribe, Arrian, Jospephus, Caesar, Cicero, Plato, Euripides, Sophocles, Aeschylus, Ovid, Dio, Apuleus, Virgil, Homer, Hesiod, and a host of others. I am so sick and tired of people who have never read even one of them quoting the ancients to further an agenda.
Ah, more evidence that history is not, nor has it ever been sullied by racism. Well done, sir! After all, history is a lie agreed upon. However, we won't tell anyone.
Herodotus did not say that they were black. Nor did any other ancient author.
Herodotus described Egytpians as differant from Nubians. He describe the Egyptian race as "melanchroes." Melanchroes is a word that Greeks used to describe swarthy, possibly Pelasgian people of their own race. "Ethiope" is what black Africans are called, and no one ever used the word Ethiope to describe Egytpians, and in fact used the word to SEPARATE blacks from Egytpians.
Here is a part of the Odyssey in which Odysseus is described as melenchroes:
With this, Athena touched him [Odysseus] with her golden wand. A well-washed cloak and a tunic she first of all cast about his breast, and she increased his stature and his youthful bloom. Once more he grew dark of color [melanchroiês], and his cheeks filled out, and dark grew the beard about his chin.
Herodotus actually said that Egytpians and Ethiopians were different:
After this man the priest enumerate to me from a papyrus the names of other Kings, three hundred and thirty in number; and in all these generations of men eighteen were Ethiopians, one was a woman and the rest were men and of Egyptian race.
I have actually read Herodotus, as well as Xenophon, Thucydides, Polybius, Tacitus, Livy, Ammianius, the Augustin Scribe, Arrian, Jospephus, Caesar, Cicero, Plato, Euripides, Sophocles, Aeschylus, Ovid, Dio, Apuleus, Virgil, Homer, Hesiod, and a host of others. I am so sick and tired of people who have never read even one of them quoting the ancients to further an agenda.
I would go along with Herodotus since he was in Egypt and there and saw these people, not Americans who are 5000 years removed and 5000 miles away, some who want to impose North American racial hang-ups in 2017 and an American racial agenda which originated with Bacon's Rebellion and race-based slavery.
He said 18 kings were Ethiopian..My take is the TRUTH is somewhere in the middle. I think some Egyptians would be classified as "black" if they were in North America today...some would be Semite and
some would be Mediterranean looking...I think in today's terms, it was a multi-racial society who thought of themselves as Egyptians vs. others. Today's equivalent would be Brazil...Egypt being invaded by different peoples made it multi racial. Just look at the paintings themselves. I think the origin of the ancient Egyptians were partly black as the area was being settled by different peoples at the same time.
peoples
I'm curious. Not rejecting your analysis, but how do you explain the sourced narratives below (per wikipedia)? From my basic review of the sources, it appears to be that there is legitimate disagreement on what some of the ancients meant by certain terms. Note, I include the entire passage, which both arguments for and against the black ancient Egyptian model. Even the anti-black theory Egyptologists I know don't reject all of the translations of Herodotus, etc., but instead call into question how reliable they are. And before someone mentions it, no wikipedia in itself is not a good source, which is why its key to look at wikipedia articles that are independently sourced; of course, this still wouldn't take away the possibility of error/etc. in such articles.
My take: the lines that the ancient Egyptians were either completely all black or completely all non-black are complete and utter BS, especially when you consider the many different periods of ancient Egypt. Ancient Egypt looked different at different times, and the idea of interracial mixing, even with black Africans, is not implausible (in fact, its very plausible). In a point that is not in much contention, the Nubian and ancient Egyptian relationships meant different things at different times. It was often very economic-based, and there were periods where each civilization ruled over the other. At the very least, I find it hard to believe that there was no cohabitation between these two (and other) civilizations. Again, just like the theory that all of ancient Egypt was a black civilization sounds loony and goes against the great weight of evidence, so does the theory which completely rejects black African influence/mixing within ancient Egyptian history.
I agree that the Ancient Egyptians are not easy to pigeonhole, and, like the moderns, were probably extremely diverse. Egypt is a confluence of three continents, an there have been back migrations for at least 45,000 years.
The issue is that Afrocentrists like to cite Herodotus, who never said they were black Africans. He clearly differentiated between the Ethiopians (Nubians) and Egyptians. In that respect, melanchroes clearly is used by him in the same sense as Homer used it. See the pattern here? Afrocentrists are misinterpreting--purposely so--Greek words.
As for Herodotus himself, most of his stuff is suspect. But then, I am not the one citing him, am I? You live by Herodotus, you die by him. My only point was that Herodotus never said it. Not did any other ancient author.
I notice a mention of Strabo. In all honesty I have never read Strabo, but a 30 second internet earch tells us that he also differentiated between Ethiopians and Egyptians:
As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in color, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Egyptians.
Strabo, Geography 15.1.13
I have never come across a single ancient author that called them "black" in the sense of black Africans. Not one. Indeed, the word melachroes is telling, because Greeks are a mix between darker Pelasgians and lighter Dorians. It seems that the Greeks thought of the Egyptians as similar to their own swarthier people.
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