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Ok, so you want my opinion? Merger is great! I don't know whether it is coincidence (and I doubt it is) but Louisville's center city started to boom with development, announcements of high rises, entertainment, retail, hotel, residences, and more right around the merger time. From what I have read ( I have not been here long) Louisville was largely a declining industrial city not unlike Birmingham or cities like that. Clearly, in the past 10 years, and now in the next five, it has vaulted itself a clear level above a city like Birmingham. There is more going on in one neighborhood of Louisville than the entire city of Birminghan, and I do not mean that condescendingly (I am only picking an industrial based AL city). Look at all the cities who have merged in the past 30 years. Indianapolis, Nashville, Lexington, Jacksonville...the list goes on. Without exception, these cities are seeing amazing growth and investment. While the government itself may not be THAT much more efficient (and it IS more efficient at least to a degree), it is increasing the tax base that allows these merged cities to grow, to thrive, to help support their universities, to attract young professionals, and to add more higher paying jobs than the traditional industrial wage/union jobs (which still have a strong prescence in Louisville with GE, Ford, and UPS).
That link I gave you above was only a small amount of what the merger has done for the city. There is so much outside investment from the coasts, FL, etc, in this city that I am really suprised to see it all. It literally felt like a dying city when I arrived around 5 years ago and it has done a total 180. If you haven't been here in a couple years, it really is a city on the go. I think merger is a large reason for it believe it or not. And 5 years from now, I think even long time natives returning after a hiatus will not recognize the central city with all the changes in the works.
However, I can't agree with Nashville on your 'without exception' list. My mentioning Nashville's troubles with Metro government is how you got to discussing Louisville. Nashville's Metro housing market is soft except for upscale (rich / poor); surrounding counties are booming (to which you may refer). Nashville's crime is bad and the schools are terrible. Property taxes in Nashville Metro are almost twice that of neighboring counties (for comparable homes) - and services are much worse. I don't see that Metro government helped.
My reasons for supporting Metro government in the past were 1) efficiency - which Louisville Metro documents at $700k - more efficient but marginally so; and 2) sprawl (zoning and development) - which Louisville Metro government may / may not address. So, the rationale appears to be valid, but not decisive.
My reasons for currently opposing Metro government: 1) tax increases and 2) loss of local control, appear to remain valid... Crediting Metro government for the growth appears to be unsupported... So, I remain unconvinced.
Thanks for the civil discussion, but note that a gentler approach - "I disagree" rather than "you're very wrong" - makes the discussion easier. You did inspire me to write the city to specifically address the taxes and relationships between Jtown and Metro (I can't imagine that Jtown pays full Louisville Metro taxes plus their own taxes for police and fire - I can see them paying for the 'old' County services like courts).
However, I can't agree with Nashville on your 'without exception' list. My mentioning Nashville's troubles with Metro government is how you got to discussing Louisville. Nashville's Metro housing market is soft except for upscale (rich / poor); surrounding counties are booming (to which you may refer). Nashville's crime is bad and the schools are terrible. Property taxes in Nashville Metro are almost twice that of neighboring counties (for comparable homes) - and services are much worse. I don't see that Metro government helped.
My reasons for supporting Metro government in the past were 1) efficiency - which Louisville Metro documents at $700k - more efficient but marginally so; and 2) sprawl (zoning and development) - which Louisville Metro government may / may not address. So, the rationale appears to be valid, but not decisive.
My reasons for currently opposing Metro government: 1) tax increases and 2) loss of local control, appear to remain valid... Crediting Metro government for the growth appears to be unsupported... So, I remain unconvinced.
Thanks for the civil discussion, but note that a gentler approach - "I disagree" rather than "you're very wrong" - makes the discussion easier. You did inspire me to write the city to specifically address the taxes and relationships between Jtown and Metro (I can't imagine that Jtown pays full Louisville Metro taxes plus their own taxes for police and fire - I can see them paying for the 'old' County services like courts).
Well, lets just say we will have to disagree about Nashville. Have you seen the activity in their pedestrian core? This city was simply not that active 20 yars ago. The national housing market is soft. Louisville is outperforming the national mean, and I think Nashville is too. Louisville has an advantage of being an older, historically larger city with some pretty cool neighborhoods that have been/are being rehabbed. Louisville, like Nashville and almost any American city, has fast growing suburbs. Louisville does not have as many satellite cities like Mufreesbroro or Franklin TN to drain its population. Most the jobs and services are on the core county of the MSA.
For me the proof is in the pudding. The merged cities have a great national image, are growing, in many cases have added pro teams in the last 30 years, have bustling economies and are home to a growing amount of young professionals, well educated, and the creative class.
Meanwhile, older rustbelt cities that have not merged remain in some sort of decline: Buffalo, Rochester, Detroit, Pittsburgh....even Cincinnati and Saint Louis to a degree, and yes, even Birmingham in the south. So for me it can't be a coincidence...there must be something to this merger thing.
stx - you provide anecdotes (proof is in the pudding), but no facts (empirical evidence) - how can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?
Look at this recent list of 'highest growth' or 'fastest growing' (other than NYC no Metro governments):
US Census Press Releases (http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/population/009865.html - broken link)
I didn't mean to highjack this thread with a metro government debate. I've kind of stayed out of it, because the focus has been on Louisville and stx seems to know more than I do. However, I feel Lexington is really a better comparison to Huntsville, since the two cities are very similar in size. However, Lexington didn't have another community the size of Madison in Fayette county when they did the merger back in the 70s.
Reactionary, are you contending that high growth is the measure of a good city government? If so, then Huntsville is doing a fantastic job as it is right now. However, I am really concerned about the type of growth. Growth for growth's sake is not a good thing IMO. Louisville, although not booming in the fashion that many sunbelt cities are, seems to be growing in a much more sustainable, liveable and attractive fashion. There is plenty of suburban development still (particularly in Oldham County) but the downtown and inner neighborhoods have really taken off as well. I think that balance of suburban, semi-urban and urban growth is much more sustainable for the long term.
rnc - "are you contending that high growth is the measure of a good city government" - No, but it is -a- measure.
stx seems to be contending that high growth is a benefit of Metro govt. I countered with Census data disputing that.
I tend to agree with you about the type of growth (sustainable, livable, attractive), but I remain unconvinced that Metro govt. is the best governmental structure for managing growth.
For example, IMO in Alabama giving counties zoning authority in unincorporated areas would go a long way toward addressing growth.
Ok, so you want my opinion? Merger is great! I don't know whether it is coincidence (and I doubt it is) but Louisville's center city started to boom with development, announcements of high rises, entertainment, retail, hotel, residences, and more right around the merger time. From what I have read ( I have not been here long) Louisville was largely a declining industrial city not unlike Birmingham or cities like that. Clearly, in the past 10 years, and now in the next five, it has vaulted itself a clear level above a city like Birmingham. There is more going on in one neighborhood of Louisville than the entire city of Birminghan, and I do not mean that condescendingly (I am only picking an industrial based AL city). Look at all the cities who have merged in the past 30 years. Indianapolis, Nashville, Lexington, Jacksonville...the list goes on. Without exception, these cities are seeing amazing growth and investment. While the government itself may not be THAT much more efficient (and it IS more efficient at least to a degree), it is increasing the tax base that allows these merged cities to grow, to thrive, to help support their universities, to attract young professionals, and to add more higher paying jobs than the traditional industrial wage/union jobs (which still have a strong prescence in Louisville with GE, Ford, and UPS).
That link I gave you above was only a small amount of what the merger has done for the city. There is so much outside investment from the coasts, FL, etc, in this city that I am really suprised to see it all. It literally felt like a dying city when I arrived around 5 years ago and it has done a total 180. If you haven't been here in a couple years, it really is a city on the go. I think merger is a large reason for it believe it or not. And 5 years from now, I think even long time natives returning after a hiatus will not recognize the central city with all the changes in the works.
Whoa - as a resident of the Birmingham metro I take very very strong exception to what you are contending here...
First, the most recent report from the Bureau of Labor statistics indicated the Birmingham-Hoover Metro had the 6th lowest unemployment rate in the U.S. So contending that the Birmingham-Hoover SMSA is declining is absolutely incorrect and the statistics bear that out.
Next, I would agree that the city of Birmingham itself, which includes 20% of the metro area population does indeed have problems. I would not deny that. However, the 80% of the metro area, which is located in approximately 30 cities/towns is thriving and has excellent schools, law enforcement and local government. I'd stack up the quality of Birmingham's suburban schools with Louisville's anytime.
Next - I also take exception to the notion that going metro automatically makes a community better. You mentioned Jacksonville, Nashville and Indianapolis....well the fastest growing and dominant city in the southeast is Atlanta and it is organized identically as a metro to the way Birmingham is. Metro population of 4 million with the actual population of Atlanta, Georgia being about 450,000 people. Dozens of smaller communties in the Atlanta metro including Duluth, Doraville, etc.
Birmingham, Alabama's population is 240,000 and the metro population is 1.1 million. Its the same thing as Atlanta.
I have traveled to Louisville at least 40 times on business trips. A former client of mine was Humana...so I know the area and like it. Its very pretty and I stayed downtown at the Seelbach and loved it...
But you don't have enough facts about the Birmingham area to contend that it is declining. The economy is vibrant as indicated by the latest government stats released last month....
stx - you provide anecdotes (proof is in the pudding), but no facts (empirical evidence) - how can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?
Look at this recent list of 'highest growth' or 'fastest growing' (other than NYC no Metro governments):
US Census Press Releases (http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/population/009865.html - broken link)
Easily. First, those stats prove exactly what I said: Louisville is growing faster than many larger rustbelt cities of the Midwest and coasts, AND faster than Birmingham as far as metros go. Louisville is growing faster than Chicago, Saint Louis, Cincinnati, Los Angeles, Philadelphia, and many more.
But that's BESIDE the point. What I am talking about is actual CITY growth. Like downtown and its environs. I am talking vibrancy here. I am talking culture. This is not always well measured by population because the people moving back into cities are well educated empty nesters and single young professionals. The cities growing this way are the sustainable cities of the future. Downtown Birmingham is one of the quietest, least vibrant downtowns I have ever seen in a city that size. Even Five Points South is unimpressive. The local papers in Birmingham write about mayoral problems, race issues, and the fragmentation of the metro area. There was a major editorial in the Birmingham Weekly when I was there a couple months ago. The last time I was there the mayoral race was still going on. Locals talk about which suburb they live in instead of what part of the city. I have lived and traveled all over. The mentality in Birmingham is more stagnant and old school. It is fragmented, not unified. No one wants to claim "black" Birmingham (the actual city), and it has declined from 37,000 students to 26,000 in the last decade in the city public schools. For example, what kind of a city does not even have a Starbucks in their CBD much less a coffee shop open past 6? Now, Birmingham is not dying. It is no Rochester or Buffalo stagnat. But compared to Louisville, it is just not in the same league in my opinion, even though the population is only a 150k less and the growth isn't too much lower.
So, all of this is talking around the point. The benefits of merger have yet to be fully realized in Louisville. But as RNC said, Louisville is so much larger than Huntsville that it is not a fair comparison, and if that is the point of this thread, lets discuss merger in the contect of Lexington.
From a growth and economy perspective, Lexington and Huntsville are pretty close. However, unfortunately much of this growth is massive sprawl, which will create grave problems for these cities in 20 years. Lexington is doing a much better job with its downtown than Huntsville and also has a development perimete, but still neither city has a marquee project in the pipeline. Also, to get around Lexington's development standards, many builders are going to small towns 20 miles from the center city: Nicholasville, Georgetown, Versailles, etc.
"This is not always well measured by population because the people moving back into cities are well educated empty nesters and single young professionals. The cities growing this way are the sustainable cities of the future."
A sustainable city has children...
"to get around Lexington's development standards, many builders are going to small towns 20 miles from the center city"
Doesn't recommend Metro govt as a method for reducing sprawl - does it?
Easily. First, those stats prove exactly what I said: Louisville is growing faster than many larger rustbelt cities of the Midwest and coasts, AND faster than Birmingham as far as metros go.
Nope - that stat completely disproved your point about 'going metro' being a superior form of governmental organization. The fastest growing metro was..........Atlanta. A non-metro form of organization.
But that's BESIDE the point. What I am talking about is actual CITY growth.
That's fine that you want to focus on that but it is subjective to the issue of quality of life. The vast majority of Americans who live in urban areas do not live in the city center, they live in the suburbs. So if you want to make the criteria one that is important to you, then fine - but it is not a widely accepted belief.
Like downtown and its environs. I am talking vibrancy here. I am talking culture.
You want vibrancy and culture? Sure, here is what sources outside the region say about Birmingham...
1) New York Times article about Birmingham restaurants - and those mentioned are ALL downtown. Late in the article, the author said, "Try as we might, we never ran out of restaurants". Meaning, they spent several DAYS in the city sampling the cuisine and there were so many great restaurants, they couldn't get to them all....
Gourmet Magazine rated Highlands Bar and Grill as the #5 restaurant in the United States.
Highlands Bar & Grill (http://www.highlandsbarandgrill.com/press/index.html - broken link)
This is not always well measured by population because the people moving back into cities are well educated empty nesters and single young professionals. The cities growing this way are the sustainable cities of the future. Downtown Birmingham is one of the quietest, least vibrant downtowns I have ever seen in a city that size. Even Five Points South is unimpressive.
Well you are certainly welcome to your opinion...but here's an article written in the Dallas Morning News about Birmingham's music scene...and incidentally, all the clubs mentioned are downtown....
Quote from the article: On a recent weekend, the events listings for Birmingham filled pages and pages in the local papers. Part of the problem, if you can call too many options a problem, is that many venues multitask. The Safari Cup, for example, doesn't just serve coffee and sandwiches; it also sells African objects, displays art and hosts jazz-jam nights. The sushi restaurant Sakura in Five Points South adds some edge to its raw fish with live punk bands. WorkPlay, which opened in 2001, also has multiple personalities: Besides housing media businesses, it packs in the people at its low-key bar and cavernous club.
In Birmingham, day can easily run into night, then back into day without pause for sleep or a change of clothes. At the Nick, a hole-in-the-wall club, bands often start around midnight and play until 3 a.m. If you crave a burger afterward, Marty's is still flipping patties.
I know why the author wrote that "day can easily run into night"...Dallas, TX has a 2 am closing law for all bars and restaurants. Birmingham's bars can be open 7 days a week 24 hours a day, except for a nine hour period between 3 am and Noon on Sunday.
Here's an opinion from a Minneapolis traveler of a newly opened boutique hotel in 5 Points South - which you call "unimpressive". He mentions " a 1000 restaurants". Maybe you need more for it to become impressive.
Rolling Stone Magazine (published in NYC) called The Nick (a local music bar whose bands start at 10 p.m. and wrap up at 3a.m. - "The CGBG of the South"
GQ Magazine rated The Garages as the #3 Bar in the World in the "Best Places to Fly To"
The local papers in Birmingham write about mayoral problems, race issues, and the fragmentation of the metro area. There was a major editorial in the Birmingham Weekly when I was there a couple months ago. The last time I was there the mayoral race was still going on. Locals talk about which suburb they live in instead of what part of the city. I have lived and traveled all over. The mentality in Birmingham is more stagnant and old school. It is fragmented, not unified. No one wants to claim "black" Birmingham (the actual city), and it has declined from 37,000 students to 26,000 in the last decade in the city public schools.
Yes the leadership of the Birmingham City Schools is terribly lacking and there has been a steady stream of families leaving for some of the finest suburban public schools in the nation. I have known at least ten families from out of the area who have moved to Birmingham's suburbs to educate their children. One fellow moved from Savannah and saved $22,000 in tuition for this three children who went onto the University of Richmond, The University of Texas- Austin and the University of North Carolina. FREE....just pay your property taxes. I have a neighbor who has sent three children to Dartmouth another to Princeton and another to Duke. He grew up in New Orleans in a prominent family and after graduation from law school, moved here. I'd compare Louisville's finest public schools to Birmingham's any day. Get out your data and post it on here.
The Jefferson County IB school at Shades Valley has been named the #1, #2, and #4 Public High School in the United States in the last three years respectively.
Now, Birmingham is not dying. It is no Rochester or Buffalo stagnat. But compared to Louisville, it is just not in the same league in my opinion, even though the population is only a 150k less and the growth isn't too much lower.
Nope - far from dying. Had the 4th lowest unemployment rate in the U.S. of metro areas of 1 million or more. Where's Louisville on this list? I couldn't find it....
Yes you have done a good job of talking around the point while providing no objective data to support your opinions.
The benefits of merger have yet to be fully realized in Louisville. But as RNC said, Louisville is so much larger than Huntsville that it is not a fair comparison, and if that is the point of this thread, lets discuss merger in the contect of Lexington.
From a growth and economy perspective, Lexington and Huntsville are pretty close. However, unfortunately much of this growth is massive sprawl, which will create grave problems for these cities in 20 years. Lexington is doing a much better job with its downtown than Huntsville and also has a development perimete, but still neither city has a marquee project in the pipeline. Also, to get around Lexington's development standards, many builders are going to small towns 20 miles from the center city: Nicholasville, Georgetown, Versailles, etc.
You can have all of the subjective opinions you want but I would really like to see you back up your views with data from third parties...
Last edited by Bravo35223; 10-18-2007 at 09:06 AM..
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