Hunting large game and caliber selection... (Anchorage, Houston: legal, safety, food)

[Montana Griz]

Originally Posted by cry_havoc

It is about velocity, and that velocity hitting the animal. Bullets have a lot of kinetic energy and if it goes through the animal so does most of the energy. If the bullet stays the Kinetic energy hits them incapacitating them.


Perhaps modern technology has changed things, but the principle remains the same.

Im saying this more from a physics perspective. I am not a hunter, have never hunted, and never plan to hunt. I have nothing against it, but I love animals and dont want to harm any, except rodents. I am familiar with guns and physics though. My opinion is more from this perspective. I enjoy the conversation, but I dont want anyone to use it as hunting advice.

Originally Posted by RayinAK

I have hunted moose and other Alaska animals for numerous years already, and don't rely on physics to kill such, but on creating a wound channel or to damage the largest amount of tissue of a vital organ. As I mentioned before, of all the moose I have killed for the past 25 years or so, I have only been able to retrieve a couple of bullets.

As I mentioned before, bow hunters rely on the arrow to kill moose and other animals by bleeding. You don't need kinetic energy to push an stiletto into somebody's heart and hill the person. A BB gun does not produce a lot of kinetic energy to kill a moose. Would you agree with this? Well, we had an older fellow in Anchorage who was taken to court by Fish and Game, because he shot a moose with a BB gun to scare the moose out of his yard, and the pellet passed though between two ribs and put a tiny hole on one of the lungs. The moose bedded and died later.

By the way, one of the reasons why I like the .338WM is because the heavy bullets around 250 grains have great SD. This SD helps with penetration, and when some controlled expansion bullets such at Barnes X, TSX, Fail Safe, Berger, and others are used, these usually pass right through. These are a few of the most deadly hunting bullets available today.

.........Being in my 81st year and having hunted various species of big game for over 64 of those years, I find this thread interesting to read. The following comments are "just my opinion(s)" and not meant to offend anyone.

......To Ray: I agree with everything you have said.............until a hunter has "many, many" hunting trips under his belt and has taken various species of Big Game under "A Variety of Conditions"........., I really don't think he is qualified to comment on "the best , most humane and 'quickest ' way to kill an animal.

.....To Cry-Havoc: With all due respect-----you may be a student of the effects of "Kenetic Energy" and you may have read various articles & maybe even books that discuss the effects of bullets on game animals,....however unless you understand and realize the effect(s) of the following variables:

.....size & specie of the animal involved, as well as the anatomy (spine, heart, lungs) of the animal.
.....the range to that animal
.....the way the animal is facing
.....the Caliber, bullet weight, Sectional Density, ballistic coefficient, expansion & penetration characteristics, muzzle velocity and trajectory curve for the particular bullet involved.........

........unless you are familiar with and understand these variables .....you are (IMHO) not qualified to voice opinions in this regard......I will say that I compliment you for honestly stating that "You are not a Hunter".

I am not a resident of Alaska....however I have harvested the following animals in that great state:

....a 9'3" Kodiak Brown (grizzly) on Kodiak in a late November snow storm (climbing from sea-level to 1350 feet) during a 4-hour stalk, 25 knot winds and fading daylight (at 5 PM) when I finally got a shot (at 40 yards) with a .375 H&H Mag, handloaded with 300gr Nosler Partitions (he took 3 steps)....After pictures, skinning etc, we finally got off the mountain (down to the shore line) at 10:30 P.M., and then a 20 minute boat ride back to camp......I was, BTW, 60 years old at the time.................

Also:

..... Sitka Deer: in Alaska............................7mm mag 160gr Partition
..... Caribou in Alaska:.................................338 Win Mag w/ 210gr Nosler Partitions.
..... Wolf in Alaska:.(actually the Yukon)........7mm mag 160gr Partition
..... White Tail Deer in: MT, ID, WI & IA.......243 100 gr Partition **
..... Mule Deer in: CO, MT...........................30-06 165 gr Partition
..... Antelope In: MT, CO.............................7mm mag 140gr Partition
..... Black Bear in: CO, MT, Alaska & Sask.........30-06 180gr Partition & .45-70 405gr lead RN
** ...the hunting conditions allowed me to get within 75 yards or less & I used "neck (spinal) shots".


..... Elk in MT, ID & CO............................: .338 Win Mag 250 gr Nosler Partition
..... Moose in Alaska***............................: .338 Win Mag 250 gr Nosler Partition & 375 H&H/300gr N.P.

***....As Ray will agree,....since most AK Moose hunting is close to water (at least where I've got mine in the Innoko River area)......You never want to commit the 'Cardinal Sin of allowing an AK Moose to "wander into the water" after you have shot him.....Thus the need to "drop him" where he stands when hit.. (SIDE NOTE to Cry-Havoc: You may (or may not know) an AK Bull can weigh up to 1600 pounds+/-.... can you imagine trying to field-dress and skin a bull that ends up on his belly in 24 inches of water with another 15 inches of "oozzing-Muck" under the water.........I'm sure Ray has heard of situations like that..........thus (IMHO) a .338/250gr Premium bullet is the minimum I would recommend.

I my-opinion you never can (within reason) "be over-gunned" either in caliber or bullet weight.
I'm proud to say in over 60 years of taking big game....I've never lost an animal!!!
I've always errored on the (heavy) side of "matching the caliber & bullet" for the worst-case set of conditions for the animal involved.

Admittedly I am a "gun-nut", have handloaded for over 50 years, have chronographed hundreds of loads and have been a student of "External Ballistics" for at least 45 years. I'm not saying that everybody should be "into this hobby" as deeply as I am................however I DO FIRMLY BELIEVE that a true hunter should "match the caliber & the bullet" to the animal AND the WORST-CASE conditions that he may encounter. I also believe that no source of information from any source can be equal to "the Hands-On" experience and encounters that you can only get from many, many hunting trips for various animals under ALL TYPES of conditions..

......I should add that for almost (40) working years, I had a job that required that I travel to most of the western states as well as Alaska & several provinces in Canada. During that time I developed many contacts and friends that enabled me to arrange many hunting trips. If I did not have that type of job, I would not have been able to arrange the many hunting opportunities I enjoyed....... Not a skiier, not a golfer.........just a huntin' & gun nut.

[RayinAK]

Well said, Montane Griz

The number one rule for any experienced hunter should be to match the cartridge to the game to be hunted. While one can use just about any gun to kill a moose, bear, etc., it's always a good idea not to be under-gunned when hunting. There are times when you may want to stop the animal before it reaches water (as you have said above). Also, bear hunters may have to stop a bear before they can finish it. And yes, regardless of rifle size used one can fail to connect (things happen), but if one happens to shoot a big gun well, it makes no sense to take chances by being under-gunned.

That said, some people may have a hard time with any rifle larger than a .30-06. At the same time, I have met two women who use the .375 H&H with 300-grain NOS to hunt most Alaska game. I met the older of the two at the firing range in Fairbanks, and was surprised at how easily she was handling the recoil. I asked her if the recoil was not bothering her, and she said, "my Dad introduced me to this rifle years ago. It was the first big game rifle I ever shot, so I got used to it." This lady was quite petite, maybe 5'4" tall

The youngest one is around 23. I met her around 4 weeks ago when I bought an older truck from her. Her response to my questions about her .375 H&H and the 300-grain hand loads was as follows: "love to hunt black bears and moose with this rifle. One big hole in, one big hole out with little meat damage."

When in the military I had a civilian supervisor. He likes to hunt with the .338WM and 250-grain hand loads. The person who reloads and tests them for him at the range is his wife! He does not enjoy repetitive recoil, but his wife has no trouble with that

Something else I forgot to mention, and this is something you have seen many times when you are skinning a moose or bear: massive amount of jellied flesh around the bullet's entry and exit holes, sometimes without lots of visible flesh or organ damage inside, even when shot with the .338, .375, and larger calibers. But I have also seen animals that have not much jellied flesh around the entrance and exit holes, which plenty of damage inside. The most damage I have seen around the near and far bullet holes is from smaller and faster bullets, however. I have also shot moose through the lungs with the former High Energy Federal load for the .338WM with a 250-grain NOS. Out of my .338 this bullet was almost explosive at 200 yards. Still, some pieces would pass right through. This leads to a short story as follows:

I kill this moose (dropped almost instantly after the shot). My hunting partner and I return home to hang the moose meat in a cooler, and go back for more hunting two or three days later. While he was going to hunt moose along his young son, I would be looking for a black bear to hunt. Early this morning I am standing on the same rocky knob I had shot the moose from, and my hunting partner and son ride their ATV's toward the trailhead pass my spot by the trail. A couple of minutes later I noticed some movement with the corner of my eye about 150 yards, and for whatever reason I thought about "caribou" (light brown shade), before I realized that it was a huge grizzly bear walking away from the trail and the gut pile from the moose I had killed a few days before.

All of the sudden I became real worried when thinking that I would have to kill a large grizzly which the same "nearly explosive" ammo I had the rifle loaded with. I thought, "I can't shoot this animal on the shoulder. I will have to shoot it through the lungs," but luckily the bear was out of sight by the time I tried to find it in the brush through the riflescope

Since then I always have a few "bear hand loads" with me, just in case. I want big bullets to penetrate deep and hold together, even if passthroughs are the norm. It's good to know about kinetic energy, BC, SD, and velocity, but must often those rules go out the window when hunting.

[Montana Griz]

...Ray:......Regarding recoil.......................: I think (just my personal opinion) that the reason why some small, and light boned folks seem to handle the recoil of calibers like the .375 H&H, is that they "let their upper body (the shoulder area behind the stock)" move rearward "freely" instead of "keeping that upper portion of their body in a "rigid" position. What bears this out in my mind is the following short story:......

Years ago when Elmer Keith was alive (he died in 1984), I had the good fortune to meet him at a Gun Show in his home town of Salmon, ID (which is about a 90 minute drive from my place.) We talked about several things, including the recoil of several of the African rifles he had used in his hunts in that country. He offered to have me shoot a .416 Rigby........I declined, but he insisted, HOWEVER, he said:.."just let your shoulder move back with the gun...". He also mentioned that calibers like the .375 H&H Mag & .416 Rigby, recoil more with a "shove rearward".....rather than the "sharp whack" you get from calibers like the .338 w/ 250gr and/or the .300 WBY w/ 220gr.........and you know, he was right.....I just never thought of the comparison in that light. I should mention that he was not a large man: about 150 pounds; about 5'6" and wore a size "8-B" western Boot. Now, shootin' these heavy recoiling rifles from "the bench" is an entirely different situation ......best way to shoot those babies is standing straight up and leaning against some type of verticle support that still allows you to "give w/ the recoil."

It's my opinion that "jellied flesh/type "stuff" that you mention, is the result of "hydraulic-shock" acting on the "body fluids mixed w/ some blood" that is in the flesh "immediately" under the hide on most animals. Hydraulic shock "SEEMS" to occur when a bullets enters a large animal at or above about 2300 fps. I've shot Black Bear & Deer with the "slow-moving" 405gr lead RN out of the 45/70 and never encountered that "jellied-stuff". But I sure could be wrong......and 'on the-other-hand", about 5 years ago I was still recouperating from some surgery when WTDeer season opened. I had the chance to fill my tag by shooting a WTBuck (about 180#) at 12 Feet (on my driveway ), with a 100gr N.P. at about 3100fps!!!
I shot him in the neck (spine shot) at a point where the neck widens out to become the shoulder. There was a great deal of that "jellied stuff" all around the entrance & exit holes AND, all the "meat" (about a 14" circle) surronding both holes and across the top of the neck was COMPLETELY "Blood-Shot". I would venture an opinion that it was a "Text-Book" case of "Hydraulic Shock" acting on all the blood vessels servicing the lungs.

Regarding "special handloaded BEAR LOADS"...........................

You may have read or heard that in the last 5 years we have had (2) Elk hunters killed by Grizzlies right here within 60 miles of Missoula, a Pheasant hunter was killed and a deer hunter was almost killed by a Grizzly. In all cases the hunters were kneeling, bent over, field dressing the animals and the Grizzlies attacked from the rear....the consensus (including F&G Guys) is that the Grizzlies react to the sound of the gun-shot as though "it was a dinner-bell". After these happenings, some twenty reports were received (in the next few weeks) by the F&G from other hunters (including Bird Hunters) that have had encounters with Grizzlies after shooting their guns at game.

I do carry a .44 Mag loaded with "VERY HARD CAST" 300 gr Solids when Bird Hunting. As you know there has not been a hunting season on Grizzlies in Montana for probably 80 years. The problem is, that their numbers have "TRIPPLED" in the last 10 years.....current estimates put the number (in the Greater Yellowstone Eco System) somewhere between 1500 to 1800 (maybe more) ......when you consider that in that area (mostly in Montana) they have lost 98.5% of their original habitat.........it's no wonder that the number of encounters is sky-rocketing. Just last year there were (2) hiker deaths in Glacier N.P. and 5 other park visitors were mauled but not killed.

Any way, it's a GREAT place to live..........................and I'll keep on hand-loading and shootin' until they "carry me into town" "kickin' & screming".

Ketch ya later
[/quote]//

[Montana Griz]

Originally Posted by Glitch

Trapper Creek, near Talkeetna, is a good place to hunt ptarmigan. Also along Petersville Road. A good dog to flush them out is advisable because ptarmigan like to run. They will fly if they have too, but they seem to prefer running more than any other game bird I have encountered.

....Hey Glitch...................perhaps you'd be kind enough to analyse what I'm thinking about (re ptarmigan hunting) and honestly give me your thoughts and opinions and suggestions;

I pretty much have given up on big game hunting on an AK Trip. I've gotten my share of AK game animals in years past and now just interested in Birds,

fitted brace on my right knee (it can't be replced with a knee replacement due to the nature of the original injury).I hunt around my14 acre place quite well Ruffed Grouse/Dove (2hr of bird hunting, then some lunch and rest time and another (2) hours in the sfternoon. The dog is a trained Brittany.

I have traveled the Petersville Rd to the Roadhouse back in 1996 and stayed in our camper.

Are there now rooms that they rent out for a couple of days to birds hunters?....and do they serve 3 meals/a day?

Would dates would you recommend for staying 10 days in the area,

Would probably do some fishing and will have a Win .338 along for whatever might be suggested.

I'm driving a 2007 GMC YUKON XL 4wd SUV.

Any thoughts or comments wuld be appreciated....................................... ..........Griz

[RayinAK]

Originally Posted by Montana Griz

...Ray:......Regarding recoil.......................: I think (just my personal opinion) that the reason why some small, and light boned folks seem to handle the recoil of calibers like the .375 H&H, is that they "let their upper body (the shoulder area behind the stock)" move rearward "freely" instead of "keeping that upper portion of their body in a "rigid" position. What bears this out in my mind is the following short story:......

Years ago when Elmer Keith was alive (he died in 1984), I had the good fortune to meet him at a Gun Show in his home town of Salmon, ID (which is about a 90 minute drive from my place.) We talked about several things, including the recoil of several of the African rifles he had used in his hunts in that country. He offered to have me shoot a .416 Rigby........I declined, but he insisted, HOWEVER, he said:.."just let your shoulder move back with the gun...". He also mentioned that calibers like the .375 H&H Mag & .416 Rigby, recoil more with a "shove rearward".....rather than the "sharp whack" you get from calibers like the .338 w/ 250gr and/or the .300 WBY w/ 220gr.........and you know, he was right.....I just never thought of the comparison in that light. I should mention that he was not a large man: about 150 pounds; about 5'6" and wore a size "8-B" western Boot. Now, shootin' these heavy recoiling rifles from "the bench" is an entirely different situation ......best way to shoot those babies is standing straight up and leaning against some type of verticle support that still allows you to "give w/ the recoil."

It's my opinion that "jellied flesh/type "stuff" that you mention, is the result of "hydraulic-shock" acting on the "body fluids mixed w/ some blood" that is in the flesh "immediately" under the hide on most animals. Hydraulic shock "SEEMS" to occur when a bullets enters a large animal at or above about 2300 fps. I've shot Black Bear & Deer with the "slow-moving" 405gr lead RN out of the 45/70 and never encountered that "jellied-stuff". But I sure could be wrong......and 'on the-other-hand", about 5 years ago I was still recouperating from some surgery when WTDeer season opened. I had the chance to fill my tag by shooting a WTBuck (about 180#) at 12 Feet (on my driveway ), with a 100gr N.P. at about 3100fps!!!
I shot him in the neck (spine shot) at a point where the neck widens out to become the shoulder. There was a great deal of that "jellied stuff" all around the entrance & exit holes AND, all the "meat" (about a 14" circle) surronding both holes and across the top of the neck was COMPLETELY "Blood-Shot". I would venture an opinion that it was a "Text-Book" case of "Hydraulic Shock" acting on all the blood vessels servicing the lungs.

Regarding "special handloaded BEAR LOADS"...........................

You may have read or heard that in the last 5 years we have had (2) Elk hunters killed by Grizzlies right here within 60 miles of Missoula, a Pheasant hunter was killed and a deer hunter was almost killed by a Grizzly. In all cases the hunters were kneeling, bent over, field dressing the animals and the Grizzlies attacked from the rear....the consensus (including F&G Guys) is that the Grizzlies react to the sound of the gun-shot as though "it was a dinner-bell". After these happenings, some twenty reports were received (in the next few weeks) by the F&G from other hunters (including Bird Hunters) that have had encounters with Grizzlies after shooting their guns at game.

I do carry a .44 Mag loaded with "VERY HARD CAST" 300 gr Solids when Bird Hunting. As you know there has not been a hunting season on Grizzlies in Montana for probably 80 years. The problem is, that their numbers have "TRIPPLED" in the last 10 years.....current estimates put the number (in the Greater Yellowstone Eco System) somewhere between 1500 to 1800 (maybe more) ......when you consider that in that area (mostly in Montana) they have lost 98.5% of their original habitat.........it's no wonder that the number of encounters is sky-rocketing. Just last year there were (2) hiker deaths in Glacier N.P. and 5 other park visitors were mauled but not killed.

Any way, it's a GREAT place to live..........................and I'll keep on hand-loading and shootin' until they "carry me into town" "kickin' & screming".

Ketch ya later

//[/quote]

It's a pleasure to communicate with you on subjects like these, and I agree with you.

I have heard numerous accounts of deer hunters in Kodiak and their reference to brown bears reacting to gun shots like "a dinner bell." Through the years several deer hunters in Kodiak have been mauled or killed by brown bears that have come-in for dinner after a deer have been shot.

I also carry some hard-cast ammo, sometimes on a .454 Casull, while other times on a .45-70 Marlin rifle. I carry the latter when picking blueberries not too far from Fairbanks, but for hunting I have been using a .338WM with Federal ammo loaded with 225-grain TSX bullets. This bullet seems to work for me as an overall sort of hunting bullet.

Ray

[Glitch]

Originally Posted by Montana Griz

....Hey Glitch...................perhaps you'd be kind enough to analyse what I'm thinking about (re ptarmigan hunting) and honestly give me your thoughts and opinions and suggestions;

I pretty much have given up on big game hunting on an AK Trip. I've gotten my share of AK game animals in years past and now just interested in Birds,

fitted brace on my right knee (it can't be replced with a knee replacement due to the nature of the original injury).I hunt around my14 acre place quite well Ruffed Grouse/Dove (2hr of bird hunting, then some lunch and rest time and another (2) hours in the sfternoon. The dog is a trained Brittany.

I have traveled the Petersville Rd to the Roadhouse back in 1996 and stayed in our camper.

Are there now rooms that they rent out for a couple of days to birds hunters?....and do they serve 3 meals/a day?

Would dates would you recommend for staying 10 days in the area,

Would probably do some fishing and will have a Win .338 along for whatever might be suggested.

I'm driving a 2007 GMC YUKON XL 4wd SUV.

Any thoughts or comments wuld be appreciated....................................... ..........Griz

I also no longer go on solo moose hunts. It is becoming too much work. I will only go moose hunting with a (younger) partner these days. I focus primarily on hunting grouse and ptarmigan, although I will take an occasional caribou.

As you are probably already aware, grouse and ptarmigan season begins August 10th and goes through the end of March the following year. Trapper Creek is in Game Management Unit (GMU) 13E, and the bulk of Petersville Road is in GMU 16A. You can only take two ruffed grouse per day, four in possession, the rest must be spruce, sooty, blue, or sharp-tailed grouse, and you can take 15 per day, 30 in possession. You can take 20 per day, or 40 in possession, of willow, rock, and white-tailed ptarmigan in both GMU 13E and 16A.

I would recommend mid-August or early September as the best time. Particularly if you want to get some fishing in during that time. There are usually some pretty good runs of Silvers and Reds in August, and a late run of Silvers and Reds in September.

One of the problems I encounter on Petersville Road is all the deep "bear grass," which will be over six feet tall by mid-August. Even with a good hunting dog, finding the bird after it has been shot in that grass is a problem. Not to mention it is a bit unnerving hiking through grass when you cannot see more than three feet in front of you. I got a hernia hiking through that damnable grass.

I did a lot of grouse hunting in the Nebraska panhandle (the Sandhills), and it was never a problem finding your bird after it had been shot. My dogs also had a problem with the density of the tall "bear grass." I have to blaze a trail for them.

Unfortunately, the Forks Roadhouse at mile 18.7 of the Petersville Road burned down in April this year. So I think finding a room may be a problem. However, there is lodging in Talkeetna, which is not too far away.

Forks Roadhouse Destroyed in Overnight Fire - KTUU.com

Typically, I will drive up to Petersville Road early Saturday morning from Wasilla, hunt most of the day, then car-camp overnight near Petersville Road. I will continue hunting Sunday morning, and return home Sunday afternoon. I have only stayed overnight in Talkeetna a couple of times, more than a decade ago. So I am not a good source for lodging.

[Dreison Rhodes]

Originally Posted by warptman

Hunting for meat or the antlers?

Ah yes!!! The K.I.S.S. principle

[Montana Griz]

Originally Posted by Glitch

I also no longer go on solo moose hunts. It is becoming too much work. I will only go moose hunting with a (younger) partner these days. I focus primarily on hunting grouse and ptarmigan, although I will take an occasional caribou.

As you are probably already aware, grouse and ptarmigan season begins August 10th and goes through the end of March the following year. Trapper Creek is in Game Management Unit (GMU) 13E, and the bulk of Petersville Road is in GMU 16A. You can only take two ruffed grouse per day, four in possession, the rest must be spruce, sooty, blue, or sharp-tailed grouse, and you can take 15 per day, 30 in possession. You can take 20 per day, or 40 in possession, of willow, rock, and white-tailed ptarmigan in both GMU 13E and 16A.

I would recommend mid-August or early September as the best time. Particularly if you want to get some fishing in during that time. There are usually some pretty good runs of Silvers and Reds in August, and a late run of Silvers and Reds in September.

One of the problems I encounter on Petersville Road is all the deep "bear grass," which will be over six feet tall by mid-August. Even with a good hunting dog, finding the bird after it has been shot in that grass is a problem. Not to mention it is a bit unnerving hiking through grass when you cannot see more than three feet in front of you. I got a hernia hiking through that damnable grass.

I did a lot of grouse hunting in the Nebraska panhandle (the Sandhills), and it was never a problem finding your bird after it had been shot. My dogs also had a problem with the density of the tall "bear grass." I have to blaze a trail for them.

Unfortunately, the Forks Roadhouse at mile 18.7 of the Petersville Road burned down in April this year. So I think finding a room may be a problem. However, there is lodging in Talkeetna, which is not too far away.

Forks Roadhouse Destroyed in Overnight Fire - KTUU.com

Typically, I will drive up to Petersville Road early Saturday morning from Wasilla, hunt most of the day, then car-camp overnight near Petersville Road. I will continue hunting Sunday morning, and return home Sunday afternoon. I have only stayed overnight in Talkeetna a couple of times, more than a decade ago. So I am not a good source for lodging.

.......Thanks for the informative response.............you answered a lot of my questions..........

Very sorry to hear about the Roadhouse burning down.

I checked my old notes from many years ago when my late wife & I stayed in Talkeetna on a combination 'business/short vacation type trip"......we stayed at the Swiss-Alaska Inn and as I remember the wife of the owner was originally from Missoula, MT (just 48 miles from my place). Evidentally they still own and operate the place and are open in Sept.......which is when I would go so I could catch the 2nd run of Silvers as well as do the bird huntin'.

Your "Bear Grass" is about 5 times taller than ours. If yours has that "white/cream" colored flower like ours does when it blooms....................it must present "quite-an-impressive-view". And I totally agree......going through that stuff (with such a limited ability to see around you) would certainly keep a guy on edge.

Our (western MT)Grouse (Ruffed, Blue & Franklin) are kinda at the "bottom" of their cycle. I do have some of each specie within a 15 minute walk from my place, HOWEVER, if you want Wild Turkey----"we got 'em......man do we have 'em. I've got pictures taken from standing on my deck....of up to 30 in a flock......they are a real pest....crap all over the deck...eat all the flowers and drive my Brittany NUTS!!
The SharpTail Grouse and Huns over in eastern Montana are doing quite well....but it's a full days drive (500/600 miles) to get over into that country.......so this 'ole boy doesn't get over their very often.

I'll start "layin' the ground work" to see if I can line-up one of my "old-fogey" huntin' buddies to make the trip--(preferrably, one of the younger guys ).

I guess the best way to have a hand-gun up there, is to send it ahead of time (due to drivin' through Canada) to the place where I'd be staying?
...............Oh, also......: I just rememberd something I read or heard: .... (I think I'm correct) that to enter Canada now with a rifle or shotgun....costs a permit fee of (I think) $50. each. ....I'll check this out for current regs.......if that's the case,....hell, I'll just have a friend of mine here (has FFL) send the shotgun, rifle & handgun all in one package to the place I'll be staying...................any thoughts or comments??

Oh, one last thing......................the only time I had to use a guide in Alaska, was to get my Brown Bear on Kodiak... (waited 5 years for my name to "come-up" for a "cancelled hunt" i.e. "half price" The guy's name was Jim Bailey & I think he was from the Talkeetna area, don't know if he's still in business. (the moose, Blk Bear & Caribou were all taken in the era when guides were not required for them,) thus my "float hunts" on the Innoko & Mulchatna rivers were un-guided, no body except the 3 of us from Montana....& we supplied all our own equipment, rafts, tents etc (also floated the Susitna & the Tonzona)..........what works in MT, usually works pretty well in AK...........main requirements: patience, common sense & a constant awareness of your surrondings. Man, you guys live in a fantastic state!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jimboburnsy]

Ray,

In the event of an encounter with a bear (assuming you see it coming) at what point do you shoot? In other words, what constitutes an actionable menace in your opinion?

[jimboburnsy]

Originally Posted by Dreison Rhodes

Ah yes!!! The K.I.S.S. principle

I'm familiar with the engineering principle you referenced, but I'm having trouble deciphering the specific application...