I wonder how long some of us will be able to survive if... (Chicken: heat pump, to live)

[MissingAll4Seasons]

A lot does depend where exactly you're living. Anchorage isn't indicative of all South Central, and Fairbanks isn't indicative of all Interior. We're fairly isolated, so if the power and fuel goes away people *might* be able to get here (by the river or plane, because we'd destroy the single access road ASAP), but they wouldn't be able to make it back -- you can't do a round trip on a single tank of gas with most vehicles large enough to make the raiding trip worth your while. Given our distance from the only urban center in the area there's a whole lotta empty nothing between here and there... plenty of distance for most folks to give up or die of various unpleasant causes before they got to us especially without powered vehicles. But, yeah, if we only lived on the outskirts rather than the boonies, we'd be in more trouble... one of the reasons that we bought this place

And really, unless you live in a McMansion or a drafty shack, you'd be surprised how little firewood you actually need to stay warm in the winter. We're living in a freakin' wall tent for goodness sake and we only went through 5 cords in winter (even though it was -40 for over a month solid). Cutting, hauling and splitting 5 cords is maybe a month's worth of work taking it reasonably easy.

Same thing for food, unless you're feeding an army or are totally clueless, you aren't spending every single minute of every summer day procuring and preserving food. Seriously, just one Moose makes a lot of meal! Bag a moose/couple 'bou, some grouse and some salmon and you're stocked for meat. That's not really an extraordinary amount of time there, not even counting the time to butcher and preserve it. With all the sun in the summer, obtaining adequate yields of the regionally appropriate crops isn't hours of labor every single day if you aren't trying to force the land and are working with it instead. We call this "Zone Denial" -- the Interior is Zone 2-3, you might baby a Zone 4 plant or create a Zone 4 micro-climate, but don't bet the farm on it -- plant stuff you know grows and grows well where you live, and there are lots to choose from even in the Interior.

Really, it's all about using your brain more than your back!!

[alex7777]

Originally Posted by Bideshi

No, "we" didn't. It was an entirely different generation of self reliant, hard working people who knew a lot more than we do about living rough and living simple. They had more of a community spirit and were more willing to share. We are the "to hell with you buddy, I've got mine" nation. They trusted in God and family, and many of them had a family farm to go back home to. The dust bowl refugees were able to find work in the Cali fields and orchards because there wasn't any work that "Americans won't do". They made it through that difficult time without turning on one another. This economic disaster will be worse than that one.

How will we do in comparison?

You're correct that the GD generation was different, but it wasn't that they were more community-oriented / sharing -- it was that they were far more self-reliant, and didn't expect the government to take care of them at every turn. They were also far harder-working, as you noted, and weren't as snobbish about what kind of work they would do. (Two years of unemployment compensation is a little ridiculous -- I suspect many recipients could get jobs if they wanted -- they just wouldn't be comparable to the jobs they had previously. We need to develop ways to distinguish between these things.) Just generally less spoilt.

We're actually more sharing today in many ways (we pay far more in taxes, for one thing), but we also expect to be taken care of much more. Not a good habit in times of crisis.

[RayinAK]

Originally Posted by MissingAll4Seasons

A lot does depend where exactly you're living. Anchorage isn't indicative of all South Central, and Fairbanks isn't indicative of all Interior. We're fairly isolated, so if the power and fuel goes away people *might* be able to get here (by the river or plane, because we'd destroy the single access road ASAP), but they wouldn't be able to make it back -- you can't do a round trip on a single tank of gas with most vehicles large enough to make the raiding trip worth your while. Given our distance from the only urban center in the area there's a whole lotta empty nothing between here and there... plenty of distance for most folks to give up or die of various unpleasant causes before they got to us especially without powered vehicles. But, yeah, if we only lived on the outskirts rather than the boonies, we'd be in more trouble... one of the reasons that we bought this place

And really, unless you live in a McMansion or a drafty shack, you'd be surprised how little firewood you actually need to stay warm in the winter. We're living in a freakin' wall tent for goodness sake and we only went through 5 cords in winter (even though it was -40 for over a month solid). Cutting, hauling and splitting 5 cords is maybe a month's worth of work taking it reasonably easy.

Same thing for food, unless you're feeding an army or are totally clueless, you aren't spending every single minute of every summer day procuring and preserving food. Seriously, just one Moose makes a lot of meal! Bag a moose/couple 'bou, some grouse and some salmon and you're stocked for meat. That's not really an extraordinary amount of time there, not even counting the time to butcher and preserve it. With all the sun in the summer, obtaining adequate yields of the regionally appropriate crops isn't hours of labor every single day if you aren't trying to force the land and are working with it instead. We call this "Zone Denial" -- the Interior is Zone 2-3, you might baby a Zone 4 plant or create a Zone 4 micro-climate, but don't bet the farm on it -- plant stuff you know grows and grows well where you live, and there are lots to choose from even in the Interior.

Really, it's all about using your brain more than your back!!

Really? thousands of people will be looking for the same food sources you have mentioned, and how long do you think the moose populations around the State will last? Something else: thousands of people cutting 5 or more cords of wood each to stay warm? Just a very few hundreds of people near Pedro's monument (during the gold rush) cleared the hills of lumber around Fairbanks years ago.

[Metlakatla]

Originally Posted by RayinAK

Really? How many thousands of people do you think will be looking for the same food sources you have mentioned, and how long do you think the moose populations around the State will last?

Ray, how much hooch do you think you'd have to put up in order to be comfortable after the shtf?

[RayinAK]

Originally Posted by Metlakatla

Ray, how much hooch do you think you'd have to put up in order to be comfortable after the shtf?

Not drinking this weekend. I am driving

Back to this thread: one can have a 6-month (or longer) supply of food, and lots of "lead" to defend it.

[Metlakatla]

Originally Posted by RayinAK

Not drinking this weekend. I am driving

Back to this thread: one can have a 6-month (or longer) supply of food, and lots of "lead" to defend it.

How many frying pans do you think your poor wife needs to smack you upside your idjit head after the shtf and she's stuck with you 24/7 while you shoot stuff and put up sauerkraut?

[RayinAK]

Originally Posted by Metlakatla

How many frying pans do you think your poor wife needs to smack you upside your idjit head after the shtf and she's stuck with you 24/7 while you shoot stuff and put up sauerkraut?

I work from 12-14 hours each day for four days (work 4/10's), and then work part-time Friday and Saturday (somewhere around 60 hours per week). But always have a cup (4-ounce glass) of wine with dinner around 6:00 PM. Never get drunk, just keep my blood happily flowing

[Metlakatla]

Originally Posted by RayinAK

I work from 12-14 hours each day for four days (work 4/10's), and then work part-time Friday and Saturday (somewhere around 60 hours per week). But always have a cup (4-ounce glass) of wine with dinner around 6:00 PM. Never get drunk, just keep my blood happily flowing

Ray....what I was talking about is after the shtf and you no longer have your job, and your poor wife is stuck with you all the time.

[MissingAll4Seasons]

Originally Posted by RayinAK

Really? thousands of people will be looking for the same food sources you have mentioned, and how long do you think the moose populations around the State will last? Something else: thousands of people cutting 5 or more cords of wood each to stay warm? Just a very few hundreds of people near Pedro's monument (during the gold rush) cleared the hills of lumber around Fairbanks years ago.

I think the areas around the larger centers will get depleted quickly, but there are enough natural physical barriers between here and there to make it much more likely for the urban folks to stay put, die off and/or predate each other before venturing too far out into the wilderness... and that's assuming it's summer and not cold yet! To be honest, most of the folks I've run into in urbanized areas of Alaska are just as clueless about wilderness survival as the Lower 48 folks. Some of the lesser clueless at least admit they're clueless and they're the ones smart enough to be stocking up to hunker down in place already; but the other f-idjits are pretty much going to go out completely unprepared for reality and meet their own demise through misfortune or sheer stupidity.

In my situation, living where I live, I'm fairly confident that the hoards of locusts won't descend upon us, or even decide to try until it's already too late for them to do it successfully. In all of the most probable scenarios (say, anything above 5%), any zombies or Lord Humungous wannabes who survive the initial chaos within the "civilized" areas will either 1) not have the resources left to come out this far, 2) will get lost on their way here or simply pass us by, 3) will be trapped/killed by the terrain, 4) will die of exposure/hypothermia, 5) will be killed by the wild life, 6) will die of starvation or food poisoning on the way here, or 7) will be killed by other raiders or fighting within their group.... or any combination thereof.

There are literally hundreds of miles of *nothing* but trees, mountains, muskeg and rivers between here and there. For any raiding party that doesn't already have ample resources and doesn't get extremely lucky scoring huge stockpiles all along the way, the chances of "cabin skipping" out here are slim. There aren't enough folks in this immediate area to deplete the natural resources or have enough obvious stockpiles to be targets, but just enough local folks to defend against any limited numbers of raiders that actually manage to survive all 7 issues above (and trust me, we've already talked about it with the neighbors). The only group that poses any serious threat given our circumstances is the military... and why would they even bother coming out here to our piddly little homesteads even if they did, however unlikely, go rogue?

Urban areas will be Ground Zero, their immediate suburbs will be next to fall, neighboring hamlets within 10 miles will be next, then out to about 50 miles... 50 miles is about the limit that most bands on foot can carry the supplies they need to make that distance. As time goes on, at each range of that territorial raiding expansion, you're already looking at an exponential decrease in population and easy resources... which also leads to reductions in the raiding force.

There's a reason why Napolean and Hitler never managed to successfully invade Russia

[RayinAK]

Originally Posted by Metlakatla

Ray....what I was talking about is after the shtf and you no longer have your job, and your poor wife is stuck with you all the time.

Oh! She not only finds me handsome, but handy We have always enjoyed each other's company, too.