Power Generators and Misc (Minto: to live in, cabin, gardens)
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A few side comments....where does the energy come from to have a freezer?
Solar and wind generators... we've researched the sun and wind days in the area we're looking at and should have ample power generation for the few mod-cons we'll take with us. We're not anti-techs like some homesteaders are.
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Originally Posted by susitna-flower
Here in AK we don't have rodents that can chew through a plastic 5 gallon bucket.....they are called BEARS...and yes they can chew through buckets AND cans and they will get your lard if they want it!
The squirrels and bears and other varmints will be a problem that we are planning for... most of the time a little common sense (like not leaving your food open or laying around) is the biggest part of the battle.
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Originally Posted by susitna-flower
Also Missing, you must remember that even goats have to eat in the winter time....where Arctic is talking about moving to would require the goat living in the 16 x 16 with him, OR in a really well built shelter with good bedding, as goats tend to freeze at -60....Udders are tender things! Wake up to black teats and you will be eating your social animal! Food for a goat for 9 months is also not to be taken lightly, they would require at least a ton of hay, plus grain.....and if you are putting up hay in the summer you aren't cutting wood, OR if you are gardening, you aren't cutting wood, OR if you are canning, you are BURNING wood, and not cutting it.....
Of course you have to provide good shelter and food for your animals, especially in -60 weather. Since forages do grow in AK (I checked already), you should be able to allow the animals to graze 3-5 months in the summer. With proper pasture rotation, you might even get 2 cuts of hay for the winter and some oats (on less than 5 acres). The amount of work necessary to do all these things (harvest, slaughter, hunt, cut wood, etc) would take at least 2 people working smart. Since this is a subsistence farm and not a profit farm, a whole lot less space and harvest is needed. Now, if we wanted to make this a profit farm, we'd have to make a few changes to the plans.
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Originally Posted by susitna-flower
This could go on and on, what I am trying to point out is that both of you are looking at this through rose glasses, and that is good you fall into the age group that I believe Floyd was pointing out is physically able to do the work....when you are 50 it will be a different story.
I do appreciate that you've seen several starry-eyed dreamers come up there and freeze to death, or have to go back home dejected. And I really do appreciate all your advice and warnings... I am noting them and making mitigation plans. We're both still young enough, so hopefully by the time we're 50 the farm will most likely be doing a lot of the work itself (I know that sounds crazy, but with bio-intensive and management-intensive farming it is possible).
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Originally Posted by susitna-flower
I also notice how both of you failed to mention whether you have figured into your yearly budget the now almost $2,000 PFD check, that Alaskans get as part of the revenue from those BIG oil investments...OR how you might plan to make even the meager $$$ you think you can survive on.
My budget actually doesn't include the PFD check... that's just a "bonus". The majority of our "earnings" will be interest on our savings and maybe a few items that we can sell online or at the fair. If worse comes to worse, hubby can take on some online Web work (he's a computer programmer and we will have satellite internet). We're not rich or anything, but we have been planning this for several years.
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Originally Posted by susitna-flower
I am not saying what you plan to do isn't work, I am just saying that you choose a different route. Even if you do as you say you want to, it WILL rely on other's work, roads, airports, PFD's to make it happen.....MOST who come up here with that in mind don't want to acknowledge they will be relying on others, or that when the truth is told they are NOT as ready for Alaskan conditions as their perspective of a few weeks or a couple of years in VT or WA conditions may seem.
I'm aware that I will need to rely on other people to some extent, I never said that I wouldn't. At the very least, I'm going to need a good breeder to get all my animals from and a good nursery to get all my seeds or cuttings from in the first place. I'm probably going to need to rely on a bush pilot 2-3 times a year, and am aware that puts me under the oil companies' thumb a bit and makes me somewhat dependent on the pilots! We'll even need some help getting the building materials to our property and maybe even help with some of the building. I know we can't do 100% without others, but we're trying to set things up so that we take very little. I'm well aware that AK is different than New England or WA... because I've lived up there for over a year before, including a 2 month stint in a drafty hunting cabin right before winter actually set in.
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Originally Posted by susitna-flower
Now you can grow many things up here, but storage IS a problem. Root crops do really well. Potatoes, turnips, carrots can all be grown, but how to keep them at -60 is the problem. Arctic, where you are talking about, may have permafrost, so digging a hole might not be an option like it is in VT. Canning is good, but guess what, in a cabin you will find that with all the care in the world the floor will still freeze. Cans and Jars won't last if what is inside freezes, and they burst. Going out of the cabin for even a few hours, but for sure as long as it takes to get to Fairbanks in the winter time will mean your whole set up will freeze.
You might not be able to dig a root cellar or drill a well in a permafrost area; but there are always ways to work around things if you put your mind to it. Some of the modern technological advances, often based on the "old" ways, can help a lot in those situations. For instance, a friend of mine in northern Sweden has built an above-ground cold box out of super-insulated concrete forms -- year round, her cold box stays right around 38 (cooler than most refrigerators). Things have come a long way in the last 50 years. I'll be building the double plenum "no freeze" floor that UAF recommends and that has been designed based on the ones used in Antarctica, they're rated for -80. My same friend used this design in her guest house... and floor has never frozen. I know Sweden is not AK, but we'll see if that works... if not, I'm keeping my jars off the floor
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Originally Posted by susitna-flower
what is being discussed here is a dream many years off....getting roads out to western AK. It will take many millions of dollars, and since all of the lower 48 feel the right to chime in on the discussion, and they want AK to stay "wilderness", just so they can fly up here and experience it for two weeks, it may never happen, but I can say from personal experience, it is going to be necessary IF the lifestyle the villages have adopted is to continue.
You have to realize, most of the folks who live out in villages don't WANT to go back to the old ways 100%. Yes they can subsistence fish and hunt, but they are not going to be nomadic, live in temporary shelters, and heat with whale oil! Villages like we are talking about don't have trees to cut to make homes, many times, and though many of these folks do want to remain tied to their ancestral past, they also depend on modern society and the medical and economic ties to the larger centers of this state. THIS is what drives the need for roads, and though you personally want to live off the road system, many of the people who depend on air or water transportation to live, would be better off with cheaper overland road system.
I do hope that overland road transportation does help these villages and proves to be cheaper in the long run than other modes of transport for people and goods. I also hope that the road doesn't bring any of the bad things with it, because their cultures and ancestry are valuable and important. I'm not saying that no roads should ever built, just that I'd be sad to see Alaska carved up like a Sunday roast like every other rural area I've tried to make home in the lower-48. But I do agree that certain modern conveniences and technological advances would greatly assist those peoples living in remote areas, especially easier access to better health care and such.
By the way, I have a dish for satellite, and TV.....that is a far cry from what Arctic is espousing.
Also about what part of the state are you interested in moving to? Arctic is going up by Manly. You may be able to get two cuttings a year of hay, but probably not. You can't cure hay as easily here as in the lower 48.
I was addressing the freezer point to Arctic as well since he was so anti tech, going to use a cross cut saw and all...HE was the one who mentioned a freezer....just thought that was ironical.
It at least sounds like you have a better chance of survival with both of you working at it....depending on where you settle. Good Luck
By the way, I have a dish for satellite, and TV.....that is a far cry from what Arctic is espousing.
Also about what part of the state are you interested in moving to? Arctic is going up by Manly. You may be able to get two cuttings a year of hay, but probably not. You can't cure hay as easily here as in the lower 48.
I was addressing the freezer point to Arctic as well since he was so anti tech, going to use a cross cut saw and all...HE was the one who mentioned a freezer....just thought that was ironical.
It at least sounds like you have a better chance of survival with both of you working at it....depending on where you settle. Good Luck
I suggested the freezer idea to barkingowl because I'm sure barkingowl's got a freezer. I do intend to build a raised cache of some sort for supplies, I suspect that could double as a freezer in the winter, albeit a truly deep-freeze freezer when it hits -60 or so, but I doubt any eggs or such in bulk dried goods would survive those temps. IIRC from reading the book out on Heimo Korth, they dug into the permafrost for cold storage, but away from their cabin, not like a traditional cellar. I've chatted with some people who've done similar things up there. Have to protect it to keep it from thawing and melting, is what I've heard. I am quite certain I have permafrost on my land. There are areas with pretty decent sized spruce trees, but then also areas with rather stunted looking trees. I suspect the areas with stunted trees have permafrost.
I'm quite familiar with what happens when standard canning jars freeze. The wide mouth type do quite a bit better if you give them plenty of headspace...
I thought about goats a little, and even miniature cows, but I think I've decided against it. I can do without the little bit of milk I use now. I like cheese but I can tolerate (or so I say now, maybe that'll bother me after a while doing that instead of making my own) just buying a block or two the few times I visit a village or city. I want to keep the livestock to a minimum, precisely because of having to feed them through the winter. I think at most I'll try chickens (I do like eggs and the meat and fertilizer is a nice side benefit) and bees (I've been told by a couple people who kept bees up there for profit that because of the amount of honey or sugar they'd need for the winter, they killed their hives every year to get the most honey; I'd prefer to keep them to avoid buying them all the time, but we'll see...).
When your parents homesteaded, that was a much different time. They certainly had things tougher than I probably will. I think it was toughest though for the first people to come to Alaska, with no maps and such. The natives didn't even have a iron or steel crosscut saw, guns, etc., for example, until Russians and others came over. They had things tough, but managed to survive quite well for a long time. I'll certainly admit to being rather "soft" compared to them, I'm not quite going down to that level of simplicity as of right now...
Are you walking up from Vermont? You have to pay the big fuel companies money when the airlines charge you a fuel charge. How are you getting to your cabin and how are you going to move everything you need there? Since you don't want to rely on fuel of any kind, good luck on hucking everything on your back.
I'd take a steam train if I could, but it appears the oil companies do, sadly, have quite a stranglehold over our country now. It won't make me happy giving them all that money to move there, but at least afterwards I won't be such a great cash cow for them if things work out well...
I'd take a steam train if I could, but it appears the oil companies do, sadly, have quite a stranglehold over our country now. It won't make me happy giving them all that money to move there, but at least afterwards I won't be such a great cash cow for them if things work out well...
You know...if you hate oil companies Alaska might not be such a great place. 80-90 percent of our economy in this state is oil. Pretty much all the money comes from oil...the rest of us live off of the people who work for the oil companies.
You know...if you hate oil companies Alaska might not be such a great place. 80-90 percent of our economy in this state is oil. Pretty much all the money comes from oil...the rest of us live off of the people who work for the oil companies.
LOL I don't truly hate the oil companies, I hate that they have such a stranglehold on us and America for the most part is at their mercy, like cash cows. Oil goes up, everyone's mad, yet no one's able to break free of reliance on it, so everyone keeps using it and paying whatever price it takes. Actually I suppose it's in large part the investors driving up the prices with futures and such. In large part Americans have brought it upon ourselves through wasteful lifestyles and not wanting to look at alternatives seriously. Steam engines, for example, were getting better and better in the 30's and 40's, but we scrapped them for the convenience and profit increases for the railroad companies of diesel (less workers needed for example). Only individuals currently can take action to not be too dependent upon the oil. Are you saying we should simply continue down the road we've taken here, instead of finding other ways? Peak oil won't be avoided. Eventually we'll be unable to continue as we are currently, when it comes to our economy and transportation.
LOL I don't truly hate the oil companies, I hate that they have such a stranglehold on us and America for the most part is at their mercy, like cash cows. Oil goes up, everyone's mad, yet no one's able to break free of reliance on it, so everyone keeps using it and paying whatever price it takes. Actually I suppose it's in large part the investors driving up the prices with futures and such. In large part Americans have brought it upon ourselves through wasteful lifestyles and not wanting to look at alternatives seriously. Steam engines, for example, were getting better and better in the 30's and 40's, but we scrapped them for the convenience and profit increases for the railroad companies of diesel (less workers needed for example). Only individuals currently can take action to not be too dependent upon the oil. Are you saying we should simply continue down the road we've taken here, instead of finding other ways? Peak oil won't be avoided. Eventually we'll be unable to continue as we are currently, when it comes to our economy and transportation.
But if you are coming from Vermont to Alaska, you will have to get used to the idea that the economy of Alaska is primarily dependent on oil. Minerals are next, some from fishing, tourism, etc., and the rest from property tax. The reason why Alaska has no work taxes is because of oil money. The State of AK has the largest budgets and number of employees per capita. If it wasn't because of oil, we would be paying taxes out of our noses, on top of the high property tax we are already paying. Not only that, but for every gallon of fuel sold at the pump, local and federal governments take a portion of that money to their coffers. Yes, Congress and local politicians complain about the oil companies, then turn around and smile on their way to the bank. Local government don't stop there. On top of the taxes they make at the pump, they also charge every property owner (including the oil companies) property tax (the land and property the pipeline runs through, the gas station, etc.).
You sound very naive, or perhaps young. As you sit in front of your computer, which is partially made of plastics (from oil) and minerals, look around your room and see all the products made of plastic. The electricity, which some believe is produced by the outlet, comes from a power plant that more than likely runs on fuel. The rug in your room, if you have any, is probably made of plastic, as well as clothing. Even the latex paint in your room is made of plastic. Your new cabin will probably have vapor and water barriers that come from oil.
Steam engines from the past? Are you talking about the "better and better" coal and wood-burning steam engines? Would you like to go back to burning coal and wood? Nuclear would be more efficient, and that I would agree with you, but oil is efficient and still more economical because of the numbers of years required to switch from the present technology to a new one.
Like someone before me mentioned: "you are not walking from Vermont to Alaska." To get here you will have to depend on oil every step of your way, from some of your clothing, or camera, or camera bag, or computer, or vaseline for your chapped lips, and so for. Meanwhile, as we spend time whining about new technologies, oil is all we have.
By the way, just like the rest of Americans in the US, I am completely for new technologies. We have gone through tremendous technological advances since the end of WWII. I don't want to depend on oil, so invent something better. Do you know what would be real nice, efficient, and fast? The use of "transporters" like in Star Trek. That way we would not need roads to make it to Bethel and back, and you could just make it from Vermont to Alaska without having to depend on oil.
You've missed my point I'm afraid. I am well aware of how much is made of or reliant on oil. My point was, that that's not a good thing. Yes I know I can't fully avoid it, but I think we need to wake up and stop being so reliant on it.
Edited to add: I noticed you modified your post a bit, guess you did get my point, it just wasn't clear from your original post...
Last edited by arctichomesteader; 06-16-2008 at 05:05 PM..
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