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Old 08-19-2009, 11:47 PM
 
Location: Silicon Valley, California
1,255 posts, read 1,915,377 times
Reputation: 756

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskapat528 View Post
I've not seen any good information on the AK forum when it comes to politics; it turns into lengthy arguments and name calling the minute someone disagrees.
Not true. I disagree with Moose all the time on politics (like in this thread) but I don't call him names and he doesn't call me names either.
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Old 08-19-2009, 11:59 PM
 
Location: Homer Ak.
243 posts, read 425,375 times
Reputation: 130
Quote:
Well it has veered off topic, name calling, etc etc etc.....but hey, what the hell else is new?
Why i stayed out of it... Though i have very strong feelings on the topic i know they have their talking points and couldnt possibly believe their side isnt telling the truth and i have my opinions and believe them to be true so whats the point???? Has anyones mind ever changed because someone wrote a post saying what you believed was wrong. I have linked video proof, text proof, and pics in some cases and people still follow the party's talking points.

Im where i want to be, im tired ,and am chosing to leave the stupidity in Cali where they think its smart.
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Old 08-20-2009, 12:51 AM
 
4,986 posts, read 8,614,584 times
Reputation: 3266
Quote:
Originally Posted by notreesininceland View Post
Not true. I disagree with Moose all the time on politics (like in this thread) but I don't call him names and he doesn't call me names either.
Yep, if I want to be insulted and called names, I just post in the political forum. There are a few here though that seem to want to argue just for the sake of argument. They will find a way to argue with you even if you are trying to agree with them.
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Old 08-20-2009, 12:56 AM
 
Location: ridgetop tn / nikiski ak
288 posts, read 298,785 times
Reputation: 271
Personally it's hard watching otherwise ok threads devolve into name calling and mud slinging. I watched crossfire get dogpiled by some for derailing the other garage sale thread, when anyone that can read could see it was C. Crunch that introduced "death panel" into the thread to begin with. If I'm not mistaking, Ms. Pats point is not so much that Notrees (and others) introduce politics into your threads, but more so that whenever it happens, the thread blows up and some people cant or wont see how it got started to begin with.



regards,
TB


...my apologies Ms. Pat if I am off base.
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Old 08-20-2009, 01:25 AM
 
Location: Casa Grande, AZ
8,685 posts, read 14,695,704 times
Reputation: 10309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metlakatla View Post
Let's get something straight.

Some people on here know exactly how to get a thread closed and they take full advantage of that. Yes, it gets damned old.

Jealous? You haven't seen me. I have less than no reason to be so.

Afraid? Hell yes. Not of the Palien herself but of what she's becoming representative of, which is brain dead dumbed down idjits who would like nothing better than to push their brand of morality onto the rest of the world.
I have to spread the .....I have to go cruising...but girl..ya got it on this one Deb
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Old 08-20-2009, 02:25 AM
 
Location: Silicon Valley, California
1,255 posts, read 1,915,377 times
Reputation: 756
Quote:
Originally Posted by socal4now View Post
Why i stayed out of it... Though i have very strong feelings on the topic i know they have their talking points and couldnt possibly believe their side isnt telling the truth and i have my opinions and believe them to be true so whats the point???? Has anyones mind ever changed because someone wrote a post saying what you believed was wrong. I have linked video proof, text proof, and pics in some cases and people still follow the party's talking points.

Im where i want to be, im tired ,and am chosing to leave the stupidity in Cali where they think its smart.
I am glad to be living in a country where different viewpoints are discussed and debated without any fear. Democracy is messy business and passions can run high when people hold strong views that are conflicting. It would be a boring country where one only sits around baking pies and agreeing with one another all the time. Most likely it would be a country where you get shot dead for holding views originating in your own mind.
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Old 08-20-2009, 02:42 AM
 
4,986 posts, read 8,614,584 times
Reputation: 3266
Quote:
Originally Posted by notreesininceland View Post
where you get shot dead for holding views originating in your own mind.
Kinda sounds like the company I used to work for!
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Old 08-20-2009, 08:36 AM
 
22,031 posts, read 28,498,248 times
Reputation: 17173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tundra Boy View Post
Personally it's hard watching otherwise ok threads devolve into name calling and mud slinging. I watched crossfire get dogpiled by some for derailing the other garage sale thread, when anyone that can read could see it was C. Crunch that introduced "death panel" into the thread to begin with. If I'm not mistaking, Ms. Pats point is not so much that Notrees (and others) introduce politics into your threads, but more so that whenever it happens, the thread blows up and some people cant or wont see how it got started to begin with.



regards,
TB



...my apologies Ms. Pat if I am off base.

Sorry, that wasn't how it went. CC didn't introduce the "death panel" bs into that thread. Crossfire hi-jacked it on the first page; CC merely made another thread for the subject so that my thread would not get ruined by a bunch of far right wing ranting.

Oh, and it's quite the truth that the discussions between Moose and notrees do not devolve into name-calling et al.

Thanks Deb.
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Old 08-20-2009, 09:51 AM
 
Location: Too far from Alaska
1,435 posts, read 2,396,592 times
Reputation: 276
"Fresh breath" is in order here...

Johann Hari: Republicans, religion and the triumph of unreason

How do they train themselves to be so impervious to reality?

Wednesday, 19 August 2009


Sarah Palin really has claimed ? with a straight face ? that Barack Obama wants to kill her baby


Something strange has happened in America in the nine months since Barack Obama was elected. It has best been summarised by the comedian Bill Maher: "The Democrats have moved to the right, and the Republicans have moved to a mental hospital."
The election of Obama – a black man with an anti-conservative message – as a successor to George W. Bush has scrambled the core American right's view of their country. In their gut, they saw the US as a white-skinned, right-wing nation forever shaped like Sarah Palin.
When this image was repudiated by a majority of Americans in a massive landslide, it simply didn't compute. How could this have happened? How could the cry of "Drill, baby, drill" have been beaten by a supposedly big government black guy? So a streak that has always been there in the American right's world-view – to deny reality, and argue against a demonic phantasm of their own creation – has swollen. Now it is all they can see.
Since Obama's rise, the US right has been skipping frantically from one fantasy to another, like a person in the throes of a mental breakdown. It started when they claimed he was a secret Muslim, and – at the same time – that he was a member of a black nationalist church that hated white people. Then, once these arguments were rejected and Obama won, they began to argue that he was born in Kenya and secretly smuggled into the United States as a baby, and the Hawaiian authorities conspired to fake his US birth certificate. So he is ineligible to rule and the office of President should pass to... the Republican runner-up, John McCain.
These aren't fringe phenomena: a Research 200 poll found that a majority of Republicans and Southerners say Obama wasn't born in the US, or aren't sure. A steady steam of Republican congressmen have been jabbering that Obama has "questions to answer". No amount of hard evidence – here's his birth certificate, here's a picture of his mother heavily pregnant in Hawaii, here's the announcement of his birth in the local Hawaiian paper – can pierce this conviction.
This trend has reached its apotheosis this summer with the Republican Party now claiming en masse that Obama wants to set up "death panels" to euthanise the old and disabled. Yes: Sarah Palin really has claimed – with a straight face – that Barack Obama wants to kill her baby.
You have to admire the audacity of the right. Here's what's actually happening. The US is the only major industrialised country that does not provide regular healthcare to all its citizens. Instead, they are required to provide for themselves – and 50 million people can't afford the insurance. As a result, 18,000 US citizens die every year needlessly, because they can't access the care they require. That's equivalent to six 9/11s, every year, year on year. Yet the Republicans have accused the Democrats who are trying to stop all this death by extending healthcare of being "killers" – and they have successfully managed to put them on the defensive.
The Republicans want to defend the existing system, not least because they are given massive sums of money by the private medical firms who benefit from the deadly status quo. But they can't do so honestly: some 70 per cent of Americans say it is "immoral" to retain a medical system that doesn't cover all citizens. So they have to invent lies to make any life-saving extension of healthcare sound depraved.
A few months ago, a recent board member for several private health corporations called Betsy McCaughey reportedly noticed a clause in the proposed healthcare legislation that would pay for old people to see a doctor and write a living will. They could stipulate when (if at all) they would like care to be withdrawn. It's totally voluntary. Many people want it: I know I wouldn't want to be kept alive for a few extra months if I was only going to be in agony and unable to speak. But McCaughey started the rumour that this was a form of euthanasia, where old people would be forced to agree to death. This was then stretched to include the disabled, like Palin's youngest child, who she claimed would have to "justify" his existence. It was flatly untrue – but the right had their talking-point, Palin declared the non-existent proposals "downright evil", and they were off.
It's been amazingly successful. Now, every conversation about healthcare has to begin with a Democrat explaining at great length that, no, they are not in favour of killing the elderly – while Republicans get away with defending a status quo that kills 18,000 people a year. The hypocrisy was startling: when Sarah Palin was Governor of Alaska, she encouraged citizens there to take out living wills. Almost all the Republicans leading the charge against "death panels" have voted for living wills in the past. But the lie has done its work: a confetti of distractions has been thrown up, and support is leaking away from the plan that would save lives.
These increasingly frenzied claims have become so detached from reality that they often seem like black comedy. The right-wing magazine US Investors' Daily claimed that if Stephen Hawking had been British, he would have been allowed to die at birth by its "socialist" healthcare system. Hawking responded with a polite cough that he is British, and "I wouldn't be here without the NHS".
This tendency to simply deny inconvenient facts and invent a fantasy world isn't new; it's only becoming more heightened. It ran through the Bush years like a dash of bourbon in water. When it became clear that Saddam Hussein had no weapons of mass destruction, the US right simply claimed they had been shipped to Syria. When the scientific evidence for man-made global warming became unanswerable, they claimed – as one Republican congressman put it – that it was "the greatest hoax in human history", and that all the world's climatologists were "liars". The American media then presents itself as an umpire between "the rival sides", as if they both had evidence behind them.
It's a shame, because there are some areas in which a conservative philosophy – reminding us of the limits of grand human schemes, and advising caution – could be a useful corrective. But that's not what these so-called "conservatives" are providing: instead, they are pumping up a hysterical fantasy that serves as a thin skin covering some raw economic interests and base prejudices.
For many of the people at the top of the party, this is merely cynical manipulation. One of Bush's former advisers, David Kuo, has said the President and Karl Rove would mock evangelicals as "nuts" as soon as they left the Oval Office. But the ordinary Republican base believe this stuff. They are being tricked into opposing their own interests through false fears and invented demons. Last week, one of the Republicans sent to disrupt a healthcare town hall started a fight and was injured – and then complained he had no health insurance. I didn't laugh; I wanted to weep.
How do they train themselves to be so impervious to reality? It begins, I suspect, with religion. They are taught from a young age that it is good to have "faith" – which is, by definition, a belief without any evidence to back it up. You don't have "faith" that Australia exists, or that fire burns: you have evidence. You only need "faith" to believe the untrue or unprovable. Indeed, they are taught that faith is the highest aspiration and most noble cause. Is it any surprise this then percolates into their political views? Faith-based thinking spreads and contaminates the rational.
Up to now, Obama has not responded well to this onslaught of unreason. He has had a two-pronged strategy: conciliate the elite economic interests, and joke about the fanatical fringe they are stirring up. He has (shamefully) assured the pharmaceutical companies that an expanded healthcare system will not use the power of government as a purchaser to bargain down drug prices, while wryly saying in public that he "doesn't want to kill Grandma". Rather than challenging these hard interests and bizarre fantasies aggressively, he has tried to flatter and soothe them.
This kind of mania can't be co-opted: it can only be overruled. Sometimes in politics you will have enemies, and they must be democratically defeated. The political system cannot be gummed up by a need to reach out to the maddest people or the greediest constituencies. There is no way to expand healthcare without angering Big Pharma and the Republicaloons. So be it. As Arianna Huffington put it, "It is as though, at the height of the civil rights movement, you thought you had to bring together Martin Luther King and George Wallace and make them agree. It's not how change happens."
However strange it seems, the Republican Party really is spinning off into a bizarre cult who believe Barack Obama is a baby-killer plotting to build death panels for the grannies of America. Their new slogan could be – shrill, baby, shrill.
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Old 08-20-2009, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Southeast Alaska
2,048 posts, read 3,232,908 times
Reputation: 1109
Hey Tundra Boy....you need to be able to at least remember what you read and where you read it.

Crossfire took a dump in an unrelated thread... that is her regular mo

Besides..Crossfire needs to be dogpiled at every opportunity due to previous/ongoing bs
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