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I think the best thing right now would be expanding Rapid Ride up San Mateo and then to points east, or even connecting to the Rail Runner at Journal Center. Either way, it'd be great if the NE Heights gets Rapid Ride service, and i'd say that should be priority more so than rail. Speaking of which, does anybody still know if they are still planning on expansion up San Mateo? I remember seeing it on KOB awhile back, but haven't heard an update.
Light rail *IS* a bus. It's a bus with shiny metal
tires and a hyperexpensive shiny metal road. It's also
a technologically inferior bus with much less flexibility.
The "less flexibility" that you argue is a downside of light rail is actually one of the prime selling points - a "fixed" system ensures that the mode of transportation is there and will be there for the foreseeable future. Therefore, developers and new residents along the line are willing to make the investment because there is that guarantee they will always have that transit access. Hence the rise in property tax valuations along newly implemented lines (which have proven to provide an enormous return for city coffers in many cities, such as Portland and Denver).
The fact is, light rail is different from buses because it brings investment and increased ridership over a bus line (as much as an 8X increase in ridership along the southeast rail corridor in Denver). What this can be attributed to is arguable - it may be the smoother ride, it may be that trains are quieter and cleaner than buses. Or, it may simply be that people find trains sexier. Whatever the reason, people will ride trains that won't ride a bus. It may be silly, but that doesn't change the fact.
As for the repeated argument that Albuquerque is less dense than other cities with light rail or that light rail is unworkable here because ABQ doesn't have the built form that other cities do - well, a couple of things:
1. Many cities have successfully used light rail to spur investment of new building types. Portland purposefully ran a trolley (not light rail, I know) through a completely abandoned industrial area (that looks similar to areas around Marble brewery in ABQ, except with fewer businesses) in the 90's to help turn the area around. That area is now the "Pearl district" and is one of the most expensive urban neighborhoods in the city.
Denver has built light rail along I-25 and other suburban thoroughfaires that have residential density #'s similar or lower than Albuquerque in areas such as the Northeast Heights and even Rio Rancho. The light rail in Denver has spurred loads of new housing developments within walking distance of the stations. In other words, it has been used not only to decrease congestion, but also to provide Transit-oriented development and has helped to reduce sprawly development patterns through increased density. Mortimer, I'd like for you to point out a bus line that has accomplished the same.
2. While it would be ridiculous to say that Albuquerque has a built form similar to, say, Boston - it also isn't accurate to look at Albuquerque's density numbers when making the argument that "Albuquerque is too spread out for light rail." Albuquerque has similar density #'s to places that are implementing or have successful light rail, such as Tuscon and Charlotte, NC. This, despite the fact that a full 30% of city land area in ABQ is parkland (source - http://www.tpl.org/content_documents...andArea_09.pdf (http://www.tpl.org/content_documents/citypark_facts/ccpe_TotalAcresPercentofLandArea_09.pdf - broken link) - only Anchorage is higher!), which means those density #'s are skewed by the fact that the city boundaries encompass enormous areas of vacant land, foothill preserves, the Bosque etc. Really, seriously, the built form of Albuquerque is similar in your average neighborhood to cities like I mentioned such as Charlotte, NC. There is not a discernible difference to warrant the thought that even though spread-out Charlotte has had great success with light rail, it couldn't work in Albuquerque!
3. Light rail is different than a bus. It attracts more riders. Rapidride in Albuqurque has no shortage of riders itself. = Light rail can be successful in Albuquerque.
I really enjoyed your post, BurqueBinder! It was an insight that's crossed my mind, but i've just never seen how it would work. Would you run light rail in the actual streets? And if so, how would time travelled by the light rail be less than the Rapid Ride? I don't think i'd back it at all if someone's home or business had to be destroyed to make a new right-of-way. I'd love light rail a lot, BUT, I already ride the Rapid Ride whenever I have the opportunity to, and I imagine i'll be on it all the time once school starts back up. I don't know… If they built it, i'd probably ride it, and i might even vote for it. BUT, I really think Rapid Ride is popular and great, and i'd love to see it expanded before we did any light rail building. I would probably be in favor of light rail over the street car, and probably would not vote for a streetcar type rail system…
My definition of light rail is a system that has limited stops for quicker cross-town travel, whereas a street car connects neighborhoods and runs locally, meaning it has many stops compared to light rail..
How do you propose a light rail system should be laid down in Albuquerque? If I heard a good proposition, I *might* back it, but as i've said before, I'd be a lot less hostile towards expanded Rapid Ride.
Hmm… I've always thought streetcars are slower and smaller, built for neighborhood travel, like what's being built in DC. Lightrail being larger, faster, and more of a cross-town transit, like Dallas DART. And the lightrail in Dallas does run on the street in places, especially downtown, yet it's classified as light rail by most… So now i'm just confused.
The "less flexibility" that you argue is a downside of light rail is actually one of the prime selling points - a "fixed" system ensures that the mode of transportation is there and will be there for the foreseeable future.
Flaws in your argument:
An underfunded transit system will reduce train service whether or not there are tracks laid down. We've already seen the rail runner service get cut when funds got tight.
If a bus line is successful (high ridership), then it will not be the first to get axed or curtailed. That bus can be repurposed for special weekend event service such as shuttles to the Balloon Fiesta on weekends (those shuttles are getting to be essential to the success of the event AND to not shut down the city). The train, well, it just runs where it can, IF the authority wants it to. Heck, they still don't have Sunday rail service in Fort Worth.
Quote:
Therefore, developers and new residents along the line are willing to make the investment because there is that guarantee they will always have that transit access. Hence the rise in property tax valuations along newly implemented lines (which have proven to provide an enormous return for city coffers in many cities, such as Portland and Denver).
The fact is, light rail is different from buses because it brings investment and increased ridership over a bus line (as much as an 8X increase in ridership along the southeast rail corridor in Denver). What this can be attributed to is arguable - it may be the smoother ride, it may be that trains are quieter and cleaner than buses. Or, it may simply be that people find trains sexier. Whatever the reason, people will ride trains that won't ride a bus. It may be silly, but that doesn't change the fact.
What has made Denver in particular successful is the dedicated right-of-way (and a horribly congested freeway). If you compare the areas down south with the train with the areas up north with the BRT busway, you see similar improvements in property values. People could care less if there's a rail involved. All they care about is if it beats driving or carpooling.
Quote:
As for the repeated argument that Albuquerque is less dense than other cities with light rail or that light rail is unworkable here because ABQ doesn't have the built form that other cities do - well, a couple of things:
1. Many cities have successfully used light rail to spur investment of new building types. Portland purposefully ran a trolley (not light rail, I know) through a completely abandoned industrial area (that looks similar to areas around Marble brewery in ABQ, except with fewer businesses) in the 90's to help turn the area around. That area is now the "Pearl district" and is one of the most expensive urban neighborhoods in the city.
When Portland decided to adopt its grow-up-not-out strategy, gentrification of old nasty neighborhoods was inevitable. Property values being high isn't always a good thing; many people (and the businesses they run) have been priced out of that metro area and have moved elsewhere. A shortage of available land (and the real estate bubble) was the primary cause; not the transit access.
Quote:
Denver has built light rail along I-25 and other suburban thoroughfaires that have residential density #'s similar or lower than Albuquerque in areas such as the Northeast Heights and even Rio Rancho. The light rail in Denver has spurred loads of new housing developments within walking distance of the stations. In other words, it has been used not only to decrease congestion, but also to provide Transit-oriented development and has helped to reduce sprawly development patterns through increased density. Mortimer, I'd like for you to point out a bus line that has accomplished the same.
I'm not Mortimer, but the US 36 BRT between Denver & Boulder seems like it would qualify. LOTS of growth in between, transit-oriented development, and even higher building densities than on South I-25.
Quote:
2. While it would be ridiculous to say that Albuquerque has a built form similar to, say, Boston - it also isn't accurate to look at Albuquerque's density numbers when making the argument that "Albuquerque is too spread out for light rail." Albuquerque has similar density #'s to places that are implementing or have successful light rail, such as Tuscon and Charlotte, NC. This, despite the fact that a full 30% of city land area in ABQ is parkland (source - http://www.tpl.org/content_documents...andArea_09.pdf (http://www.tpl.org/content_documents/citypark_facts/ccpe_TotalAcresPercentofLandArea_09.pdf - broken link) - only Anchorage is higher!), which means those density #'s are skewed by the fact that the city boundaries encompass enormous areas of vacant land, foothill preserves, the Bosque etc. Really, seriously, the built form of Albuquerque is similar in your average neighborhood to cities like I mentioned such as Charlotte, NC. There is not a discernible difference to warrant the thought that even though spread-out Charlotte has had great success with light rail, it couldn't work in Albuquerque!
Funny how so many tout Tucson's system as a success. For $183 million (not including cost overruns including replacing a crumbling bridge) they get a 3.9 mile rail system between downtown and U of A. The Rail Runner (Phase I) from Belen to Bernalillo (more than 10 times as far) cost only $135 million. I guarantee you the Rail Runner (even Phase I alone) traverses distance faster, reduces cars on the road, and carries more peoplemiles per train, to boot.
If you're pro-light rail-in-ABQ, you need to stop with the apples-and-oranges arguments and focus on the crux of the argument you haven't addressed: How is light rail more cost effective than a bus with a similarly dedicated right-of-way? This supposed "trains are sexy" thing hasn't been substantiated in an apples-to-apples fashion.
If you want to change people's minds (one would question your motives otherwise), appeal to their wallets by using dollar figures, not their hearts by using flowery language. The cold, logical, half of this forum is largely the half you're trying to convince.
Quote:
3. Light rail is different than a bus. It attracts more riders. Rapidride in Albuqurque has no shortage of riders itself. = Light rail can be successful in Albuquerque.
A success is not determined strictly by ridership. I bet if you could somehow arrange "rapid-ride" helicopters and landing pads throughout the city with dedicated pilots, it would have a better ridership than anything mentioned. But it would not be a success unless the helicopters ran on hot air and the pilots got paid with the sexiness of it all.
Of course, laser-leveled tracks that cost on the order of hundreds
of thousands of dollars per linear foot are usually nice and smooth.
You could achieve similar results by re-paving the streets the bus
runs on and requesting that bus makers pay more attention to
the crappy suspensions they put on their products for less money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burquebinder
... it may be that trains are quieter ...
It may be.
However, you could achieve similar results by re-paving the streets the
bus runs on and requesting that bus makers pay more attention to the
crappy suspensions and materials they put on their products for less money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burquebinder
...and cleaner than buses. ...
Oh come off it!
Just what is it about a rail car that automatically makes it cleaner than a bus?
I cannot believe you posted that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burquebinder
... it may simply be that people find trains sexier. ...
I'm going to have to give you that point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burquebinder
... loads of new housing developments within walking distance ... decrease
congestion, but also to provide Transit-oriented development and has helped
to reduce sprawly development patterns through increased density. ...
Mortimer, I'd like for you to point out a bus line that has accomplished the same....
This is happening now, as we speak in the Uptown area, downtown, and in
the Nob Hill area. The idea that a bus line is somehow transitory and people
won't commit to development around it is not valid. The bus lines run where
the people and development are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burquebinder
3. Light rail is different than a bus. It attracts more riders. ...
I'll give you that. For any given route, if you put in a light rail line, you'll get more riders.
Now, look at your whole system.
How many bus lines were either curtailed, not expanded or were allowed
to deteriorate ( ie. get more dirty, noisy, less smooth ) due to the shift in
funds from those lines to the VASTLY more expensive light rail line?
Did your system get more riders? I'd say not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey
When you run Light Rail on Streets its called a Streetcar.
& Light Rail and Streetcars are 2 different things. ...
Yet the pictures you posted of the Hudson Bergen Light Rail
clearly runs in the street alongside of the cars.
In Phoenix, their new "Light Rail" system runs on the streets.
The "Light Rail" also does so in San Francisco and San Jose.
"Streetcars" and "Light Rail" cars both run on a "rail" using metal wheels
and cannot run on anything except for the rail that was designed specifically
for those wheels and at that gauge ( width ). To call them something different
doesn't make any sense. There is only high-speed rail and tedious, plodding,
inefficient, and incredibly expensive low-speed rail.
The only reason to use rails is when you need the guidance of the rail
to run either in a narrow passage such as a subway or at high speeds.
Here's a streetcar that my friend took. Philly uses ugly Japanese Streetcars , but plans on replacing them soon. They run all over Philly and SEPTA plans to reactivate a larger network. They did restore a fleet of PCC Trolleys , there are enough around the Country that ALQ could buy a fleet and refurbish them. Boston , San Fransisco , Portland , and Tampa have.
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