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Old 01-19-2021, 06:52 AM
 
Location: Albuquerque
1,321 posts, read 2,028,632 times
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Please read and enjoy this article.

https://www.vox.com/first-person/202...ed-race-hawaii
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Old 01-19-2021, 03:39 PM
 
Location: F*uck City-Data.com
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Huh? This article is about cultural identity and racism... And could potentially apply to many states in the U.S. You could argue a similar connection between native Hawaiians and our pueblo/native american population here, but I'm not seeing the connection to the majority hispanic/white population that makes up New Mexico.

Super lazy post... "Hey, read 10 pages of this link and let me know what you think." Take a pass on this one folks.
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Old 01-20-2021, 12:31 PM
 
Location: New Mexico U.S.A.
26,527 posts, read 51,750,943 times
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Do you think this article describes NM too?

No...
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Old 01-20-2021, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Østenfor sol og vestenfor måne
17,916 posts, read 24,342,524 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alloo66 View Post
Please read and enjoy this article.

https://www.vox.com/first-person/202...ed-race-hawaii

I think your premise relies on the notion that New Mexico has a significant mixed race identity akin to the Meztizo phenomenon in Mexico and the Hapa in Hawaii.

While it is true that the Hispano (Spanish colonial descendant) population had historically intermarried with the indigenous population immediately after settlement of the region, their identity (which is backed up by genetic analysis) is that they are still predominantly genetically European and culturally as well. The Mestizo identity common in Mexico is not really a thing in New Mexico (apart from the arrival of Mexican immigrants later in history as even that identity developed over time).

Traditionally, there was a complex caste system instituted by the colonists from Spain. After the first several decades of settlement, it was simplified into a three level hierarchy, Hispanos who were the descendants fo the Spanish colonists, and who did intermarry to some degree with Hispanified indigenous people, the Genizaros , who were largely relegated to the periphery of Spanish society as a peasant class that formed a buffer between Spanish settlements and the uncontrolled lands populated by Native Americans, especially after the colonial population had become stabilized, and the Native Americans, indigenous people who, while influenced by Spanish culture as a result of Catholic mission activities, mainly retained their traditional languages, beliefs, and lifestyles.

After an initial period, where intermingling was permitted since the Spanish did not settle with many women from their native country (most of the initial settlement was comprised of military and monastics, these social groups were pretty strictly socially separated until very recently when the incoming Anglo population and the growth of urban centers in New Mexico led to a disruption in the traditional caste system.
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Old 01-21-2021, 01:55 AM
 
Location: F*uck City-Data.com
201 posts, read 291,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABQConvict View Post
I think your premise relies on the notion that New Mexico has a significant mixed race identity akin to the Meztizo phenomenon in Mexico and the Hapa in Hawaii.

While it is true that the Hispano (Spanish colonial descendant) population had historically intermarried with the indigenous population immediately after settlement of the region, their identity (which is backed up by genetic analysis) is that they are still predominantly genetically European and culturally as well. The Mestizo identity common in Mexico is not really a thing in New Mexico (apart from the arrival of Mexican immigrants later in history as even that identity developed over time).

Traditionally, there was a complex caste system instituted by the colonists from Spain. After the first several decades of settlement, it was simplified into a three level hierarchy, Hispanos who were the descendants fo the Spanish colonists, and who did intermarry to some degree with Hispanified indigenous people, the Genizaros , who were largely relegated to the periphery of Spanish society as a peasant class that formed a buffer between Spanish settlements and the uncontrolled lands populated by Native Americans, especially after the colonial population had become stabilized, and the Native Americans, indigenous people who, while influenced by Spanish culture as a result of Catholic mission activities, mainly retained their traditional languages, beliefs, and lifestyles.

After an initial period, where intermingling was permitted since the Spanish did not settle with many women from their native country (most of the initial settlement was comprised of military and monastics, these social groups were pretty strictly socially separated until very recently when the incoming Anglo population and the growth of urban centers in New Mexico led to a disruption in the traditional caste system.
That is some fantastic background information. Can you cite any of it? Would love to use this as a reference in the future. Thanks!
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Old 01-21-2021, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Østenfor sol og vestenfor måne
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Originally Posted by MountainDweller View Post
That is some fantastic background information. Can you cite any of it? Would love to use this as a reference in the future. Thanks!
Pretty much what was taught in an upper division History of New Mexico Course at UNM, but some basic information about the topic can be found in the following links:

The Spanish Colonial caste system Casta (Spanish: [ˈkasta]) is a term which means "lineage" in Spanish and Portuguese and has historically been used as a racial and social identifier. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casta

Hispanos In New Mexico, the predominant term for this ethnic group has always been hispano, analogous to californio and tejano. In New Mexico, the Spanish-speaking population (of colonial descent) was always proportionally greater than those of California and Texas. The term is commonly used to differentiate those who settled the area early, around 1598 to 1848, from later Mexican migrants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanos_of_New_Mexico

Genizaros Throughout the Spanish and Mexican period, genízaros settled in several New Mexican villages such as Belén, Tomé, Valencia, Carnuel, Los Lentes, Socorro, and San Miguel del Vado. Genízaros also lived in Albuquerque, Bernalillo, Atrisco, Santa Fe, Chimayó, Taos, Abiquiú, and Las Vegas, NM. Most genízaros were, or their ancestors had been slaves of Indian tribes, particularly the Plains tribes who raided and enslaved tribes allied with the Spaniards such as the Apaches.[4] By the end of the 18th century, genízaros were estimated to comprise at least one third of the entire population.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gen%C3%ADzaro


The advent of genetic testing has been a somewhat touchy subject as many "Spanish" identifying New Mexicans have discovered that their ancestors were largely Genizaros, and the caste system, while long gone officially, still carries some weight in the traditional Hispano culture. Add admixture with more recent Mexican mestizo immigrants and the situation get even more complex. The Spanish pedigree holds a lot of weight in many parts of New Mexico, especially the northern part of the state. Having a recent Native ancestor may even be more socilly acceptable than being of majority Genizaro stock.

I find this story interesting. This man is clearly European looking, and his family is entirely culturally Spanish colonial of the northern New Mexican variety, but his DNA analysis came back that he was of 27% indigenous ancestry, and some in his family are having a hard time accepting it. This should tell you how entrenched the casta still is and how misguided the importance of gentic "purity" is to cultural identity.

I remember doing a program in Germany through UNM and there was one student from New Mexico in particular who was very indigenous in appearance. German students and instructors were very curious as to his background, and when he declared himself "Spanish", the Germans, in their characteristically blunt way, immediately protested, 'I have seen many Spanish people, and you don't look Spanish at all."

Suffice to say there were some pretty hurt feelings. New Mexican Students who were more conventionally European Spanish in appearance did not leap to his defense.

Last edited by ABQConvict; 01-21-2021 at 11:34 AM..
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Old 01-21-2021, 11:28 AM
 
Location: The High Desert
16,070 posts, read 10,732,474 times
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Originally Posted by Poncho_NM View Post
Do you think this article describes NM too?

No...
I would agree. I read both articles (part 1 & 2) and have limited experience in NM (7 years) but I have not seen much evidence here compared to other places.
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Old 01-22-2021, 05:49 PM
 
Location: Silver Hill, Albuquerque
1,043 posts, read 1,451,797 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABQConvict View Post
The advent of genetic testing has been a somewhat touchy subject as many "Spanish" identifying New Mexicans have discovered that their ancestors were largely Genizaros, and the caste system, while long gone officially, still carries some weight in the traditional Hispano culture. Add admixture with more recent Mexican mestizo immigrants and the situation get even more complex. The Spanish pedigree holds a lot of weight in many parts of New Mexico, especially the northern part of the state. Having a recent Native ancestor may even be more socilly acceptable than being of majority Genizaro stock.
Historically there have been many, many reasons for New Mexicans of Hispano descent to claim a European heritage rather than an indigenous or mestizo one. For decades, "Mexicans" and indigenous people were openly looked down on and discriminated against, while being "Spanish" allowed you to claim at least a share of whiteness. As a result the Genizaro identity was largely obscured, and the large number of New Mexican communities founded and largely descended from Genizaros mostly forgotten by outsiders. That is starting to change, though...I have several Hispano acquaintances who identify as Genizaro/a or Mestizo/a and recognize their roots in old Genizaro settlements like Atrisco or Carnue. There are plenty of continuing traditions, like Matachines or Comanchero dances, etc. that testify to the indigenous heritage of these communities.

Fun fact: did you know that Abiquiu - founded almost entirely as a Genizaro village - held a vote as recently as the 1930s as to whether they wanted to be considered a Hispano or indigenous community by the federal government?
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Old 01-22-2021, 09:06 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque
1,321 posts, read 2,028,632 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus Hibs View Post
Historically there have been many, many reasons for New Mexicans of Hispano descent to claim a European heritage rather than an indigenous or mestizo one. For decades, "Mexicans" and indigenous people were openly looked down on and discriminated against, while being "Spanish" allowed you to claim at least a share of whiteness. As a result the Genizaro identity was largely obscured, and the large number of New Mexican communities founded and largely descended from Genizaros mostly forgotten by outsiders. That is starting to change, though...I have several Hispano acquaintances who identify as Genizaro/a or Mestizo/a and recognize their roots in old Genizaro settlements like Atrisco or Carnue. There are plenty of continuing traditions, like Matachines or Comanchero dances, etc. that testify to the indigenous heritage of these communities.

Fun fact: did you know that Abiquiu - founded almost entirely as a Genizaro village - held a vote as recently as the 1930s as to whether they wanted to be considered a Hispano or indigenous community by the federal government?
Do you think this bias came from Europe/Spain? It's interesting how in Hawaii which is a polynesian culture (host culture) they accepted people from everywhere.
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Old 01-22-2021, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Silver Hill, Albuquerque
1,043 posts, read 1,451,797 times
Reputation: 1710
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Originally Posted by alloo66 View Post
Do you think this bias came from Europe/Spain? It's interesting how in Hawaii which is a polynesian culture (host culture) they accepted people from everywhere.
The Spanish casta system is definitely at the root of it, along with the fact that the Genizaro class as a whole began as indigenous captives who were essentially enslaved before being released to settle buffer communities on the fringes of New Mexico as protection against raiding by Apaches, Comanches and other nomadic tribes. But the bias was greatly aggravated after the US conquest: there was pervasive racism against "Mexicans" that lingered for decades if not a century, and the US government was at war with numerous indigenous groups. Being seen as Spanish and thus European rather than Mexican or indigenous conferred lots of political advantages, and buffered New Mexico's Hispano population against the worst of 19th and early 20th century American colonialism and paternalism.
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