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From Kava Kava, causes liver damage. Everybody knows about Ephedra. Vit. A overdose is extremely toxic, etc.
I use all of these in moderation with no ill effects. In contrast to Alan Jackson song ( Too much of a good thing is a good thing ), I have found that too much of a good thing is not always a good thing. These are all good supplements. None of them are intrinsically harmful. What casues the harm is the idiotic manner in which some people use them.
Well then by your own admission, we can agree that natural medicine is not 100% safe, same goes for everything on this planet, even water is not 100% safe.
So I guess INO is misinformed.
Well then by your own admission, we can agree that natural medicine is not 100% safe, same goes for everything on this planet, even water is not 100% safe.
So I guess INO is misinformed.
No, I don't recall making any statement about anything being 100% safe?
From reading your post the suggestion I picked up was that modern medicine is more efficacious than "old" medicine, or alternative medicine, which simply is not true. I've always maintained *both* should be given due consideration, and credit given where it's due.
My comments should be understood that I was just highlighting the fact that modern medicine is no more 100% efficacious than anything else, but I don't think one can introduce factors from a couple hundred years ago as modern medicine as we know it was not around back then. I'm sure we can both appreciate that.
Anything taken in excess has the potential to cause harm, I think we all recognise that, but the risk of side effects, reactions or non-efficacy of current medications should not be pushed aside or ignored just because they were concocted in a chemists laboratory and given the "seal of approval" from some authority or other.
I can't give credit to one, while ignoring the other! And I don't "knock" modern medicine, criticise maybe because the evidence is all around us, but I will defend "alternative" medicine when necessary. Both have their own merits which should be accepted by the general population, "alternatives" should not looked upon as "quackery" as most seem to. Let's be a little honest here, some of modern medicine can be looked upon as "quackery" also can it not?
I'm trying to establish a more balanced perception of potential, and proven, efficacy in both. And I think we all know why that "seal of approval" will never be given to alternatives?
Again let's be honest, would you seriously refuse a "particular" alternative if modern medicine told you they can't do any more for you? You don't have to answer that. I don't know about you but I'm a fighter and I'll grab hold of anything which may show potential after everyone else "gives up" on me! I'm dead either way so what have I got to lose?
If the "establishment" were to work *with* alternatives instead of *against* we may see some vast improvements in health for us all.
Western medicine works for the sheeple that blindly go to them for every little ailment.
Alternative medicine can be many things. Some are not really medicine. I do not include supplements as curing anything. There is nothing like good old fashioned fruits and vegetables that you eat versus a vitamin. Get your vitamins from your food.
Western medicine works for the sheeple that blindly go to them for every little ailment.
Alternative medicine can be many things. Some are not really medicine. I do not include supplements as curing anything. There is nothing like good old fashioned fruits and vegetables that you eat versus a vitamin. Get your vitamins from your food.
Now *that's* a very good point, but I have some serious doubts today, one needs to look at how we produce/manufacture/process most foods nowadays, Oh and not forgetting how we Genetically mess around with stuff today. Who cares if a tomato is not "perfectly symetrically spherical" in shape, I don't give a hoot what shape it is as long as it contains the essentials I need for maintaining reasonable good health.
I'm in total agreeance with you by the way, I just believe it's getting increasingly harder to *get* those essential vitamins and minerals from most of what we ingest today. Most of what we ingest is predominantly grown on/in earth which contain/convert these essentials into our produce, I'm not so sure today if we get most of those vitamins and minerals though with all the pesticides, insecticides, fungicides etc if there is anything left in the ground...other than toxins? and getting back to the OP, that's when the door is wide open for either modern and/or alternative medicine to make an entrance.
No, I don't recall making any statement about anything being 100% safe?
From reading your post the suggestion I picked up was that modern medicine is more efficacious than "old" medicine, or alternative medicine, which simply is not true. I've always maintained *both* should be given due consideration, and credit given where it's due.
My comments should be understood that I was just highlighting the fact that modern medicine is no more 100% efficacious than anything else, but I don't think one can introduce factors from a couple hundred years ago as modern medicine as we know it was not around back then. I'm sure we can both appreciate that.
Anything taken in excess has the potential to cause harm, I think we all recognise that, but the risk of side effects, reactions or non-efficacy of current medications should not be pushed aside or ignored just because they were concocted in a chemists laboratory and given the "seal of approval" from some authority or other.
I can't give credit to one, while ignoring the other! And I don't "knock" modern medicine, criticise maybe because the evidence is all around us, but I will defend "alternative" medicine when necessary. Both have their own merits which should be accepted by the general population, "alternatives" should not looked upon as "quackery" as most seem to. Let's be a little honest here, some of modern medicine can be looked upon as "quackery" also can it not?
I'm trying to establish a more balanced perception of potential, and proven, efficacy in both. And I think we all know why that "seal of approval" will never be given to alternatives?
Again let's be honest, would you seriously refuse a "particular" alternative if modern medicine told you they can't do any more for you? You don't have to answer that. I don't know about you but I'm a fighter and I'll grab hold of anything which may show potential after everyone else "gives up" on me! I'm dead either way so what have I got to lose?
If the "establishment" were to work *with* alternatives instead of *against* we may see some vast improvements in health for us all.
well I am sorry I am not a believer in the good old natural doctor or alternative medicine.
Yes eating right and being healthy is the right way to live, this has nothing to do with ND or alternative medicine, this is just common sense.
What I don't believe is when people start saying that ND can cure people giving them high levels of Vit.
well I am sorry I am not a believer in the good old natural doctor or alternative medicine.
Yes eating right and being healthy is the right way to live, this has nothing to do with ND or alternative medicine, this is just common sense.
What I don't believe is when people start saying that ND can cure people giving them high levels of Vit.
That's fine, on reading your post I was under the impression you were speaking in general terms, not Vitamin specific.
Well then by your own admission, we can agree that natural medicine is not 100% safe, same goes for everything on this planet, even water is not 100% safe.
I agree with you 99.9%! I'd say 100%, but since we are both on this planet..it just ain't possible.
Last edited by CosmicWizard; 06-12-2009 at 07:53 AM..
Well then by your own admission, we can agree that natural medicine is not 100% safe, same goes for everything on this planet, even water is not 100% safe.
I agree with you 99.9%! I'd say 100%, but since we are both on this planet..it just ain't possible.
Training of ND what training, only in 10 state are required training in all others don't need any type of training.
Oh and I am sorry , western medicine or like you call it modern western medicine is the reason we life longer today,
Natural medicine of the 1800's, 1700's are the reason people lived until their 40's and 50's.
Sorry to say this but you are clueless about real medicine, our education what we do, how we manage disease and how we CURE diseases.
Going to a ND so that he can tell you to take extremely high levels of vitamins or even sell you extremely expensive vitamins is not real medicine.
Oh besides, do you even know who actually discover vitamins and what they do? Yeap western medicine.
Is funny that you say that MD is for the money and ND are not, since medicaid or Medicare doesn't cover it, I guess the only thing ND accepts is Cash. While MD can only charge X amount of money (contracts with insurance company) the ND can charge what ever he/she wants.
Explain this to me, how come people died of little simple infection before western medicine? How come you say we don't cure when you have an infection, antibiotics is given and you get cured? How come in your old fashion way of ND, if a soldier got wounded in battle you had to cut the hand or leg then burn what ever is left to stop the bleeding and killing bacteria in the wound? Why in today medicine that is not necessary?
Sorry. You don't know what you are talking about. DO YOUR RESEARCH! You are just parrotting the propaganda the media dishes ou to keep everyone blindly running to the MDs for drug hand outs which are given out like candy-- which YOU evidently have bought, hook line and sinker.
If the TRUTH be told MORE AMERICANS 800,000 to be exact (based on only 20% of reported incidents), die every year from the very treatments western medical doctors use to treat the condition or disease they go to the doctors to recover from. These statistics are not made up but available in medical journals like JAMA the Journal of the American Medical Association. http://www.chiro.org/LINKS/FULL/Death_By_Medicine.html is a link to an excellent report written by doctors themselves that was published in Life Extension Foundation Magazine, in March 2004. Of the 30 page report the last 7 pages are all the resources they used including government records and medical journals.
This just proves that the training conventional doctors get does little to help anyone with chronic or degenerative diseases -- other than to cover up symptoms and maybe buy time (and make lots of money for the medical establishment at the same time). Needless to say, the patient, by going to see a conventional doctor with a chronic disease is only shown ways he or she can LIVE WITH the disease.
In earlier times, if people lived to be age 5 they probably lived to 75 or 105 because they had much stronger immune systems that could naturally fight off more germs than we do. Imagine, they did it WITHOUT vaccinations-- if they got the flu, they survived -- as we still can and do today as long as we avoid the flu shot.
In the old days there was NO SUCH THING AS HEART DISEASE. There was no high blood pressure and no high cholesterol epidemic. Imagine that! There also was no long-term care epidemic or nursing home shortage either. People lived long VIBRANT LIVES until they died and most often died HEALTHY in their sleep --- UNLIKE today where 30 to 50 % of us in this country anyway, get cancer or other disease and if we do conventional treatment for it, we are bound to waste away living a horrible quality of life AT GREAT EXPENSE TO US WITH JUST AS GREAT PROFIT TO THE MEDICAL INDUSTRY for the last ten years of our lives -- and we are told over and over that we are living longer healthier lives! HA! What a bunch of hogwash that is.
As regards education for N.D.s, educations, accredited medical schools with programs in Naturopathy are 4-6 year long graduate level programs. They are just as long and rigorous as what any general practitioner goes through in medical school for conventional medicine. The difference is Naturopaths learn about CAUSES of disease and how to help the patient naturally strengthen his own immune system to fight off and prevent disease. Whereas, conventional doctors learn how to use DRUGS often with serious life threatening side effects and SURGERY to get rid of or cover up SYMPTOMS. The conventional doctor is much better suited to ACUTE care NOT chronic diseases because, to their credit, they can save lives and at least stabilize the condition. It is the Naturopath who, once the conditon is stabilized has learned how to improve it or eliminate it altogether using safe natural methods.
Some states have licensing for Naturopaths and others don't. Having a license isn't a guarantee of anything except that the licensee may have passed a test and paid money to the state. So what???? Education and EXPERIENCE and KNOWLEDGE are what is important.
I have been going to a Naturopath who was a former Medical Doctor who has two medical degrees -- one in Naturopathic Medicine. Ever since he started treating patients naturally, 30 years ago, he has been helping them cure themselves of so-called "incurable diseases" (incurable by conventional medicine only) such as cancer, AIDS, M.S. Lupus, Diabetes, Irritable Bowel Syndrome, Lymes Diseasee and much more. He and his associates regularly help people get RID of their high blood pressure, high cholesterol, allergies, asthma -- so they can go back to their medical doctors and be taken OFF their prescription drugs as they no longer have the disease or condition they went to their conventional doctor to treat initially. Instead they have their health back.
Go to the conventional doctor if you want to live with your disease. Go to the Naturopathic doctor (not to be confused with holistic or homeopathic) if you want your health back. In this country people need to realize they DO in fact have a choice -- as Europeans and Asians have long understood and taken advantage of for a long time -- which explains why they spend less on medical care and have more to show for it than we (who spend 2 or 3 times as much on it)do.
Sorry. You don't know what you are talking about. DO YOUR RESEARCH! You are just parrotting the propaganda the media dishes ou to keep everyone blindly running to the MDs for drug hand outs which are given out like candy-- which YOU evidently have bought, hook line and sinker.
Please, it really show that you don't know what you are talking about.
Quote:
If the TRUTH be told MORE AMERICANS 800,000 to be exact (based on only 20% of reported incidents), die every year from the very treatments western medical doctors use to treat the condition or disease they go to the doctors to recover from. These statistics are not made up but available in medical journals like JAMA the Journal of the American Medical Association. Le Magazine, March 2004 - As We See It: Death By Medicine is a link to an excellent report written by doctors themselves that was published in Life Extension Foundation Magazine, in March 2004. Of the 30 page report the last 7 pages are all the resources they used including government records and medical journals.
Come on, look at the table, infection, malnutrition, etc what that has to do with modern medicine in general?
Surgery, there is always risk in surgery.
Quote:
This just proves that the training conventional doctors get does little to help anyone with chronic or degenerative diseases -- other than to cover up symptoms and maybe buy time (and make lots of money for the medical establishment at the same time). Needless to say, the patient, by going to see a conventional doctor with a chronic disease is only shown ways he or she can LIVE WITH the disease.
Your link doesnt focus on chronic disease, so I dont know where you are getting this information
Quote:
In earlier times, if people lived to be age 5 they probably lived to 75 or 105 because they had much stronger immune systems that could naturally fight off more germs than we do. Imagine, they did it WITHOUT vaccinations-- if they got the flu, they survived -- as we still can and do today as long as we avoid the flu shot.
Amazing, you really believe this with no actual data.
Life expectancy in the 1850 = 38, where do you get 75?
1900 = 48
1950 = 66
2000 = 75
So where are you getting your numbers?
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In the old days there was NO SUCH THING AS HEART DISEASE.
OMG, to be honest, I have no clue...
I don't even know where to begin. Do you really think this.
If you do a search on "history of heart disease" you will see that even Egyptians knew about heart problems, where are talking about 5,000 years ago.
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There was no high blood pressure and no high cholesterol epidemic.
If you say so.
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Imagine that!
I can't since is BS.
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There also was no long-term care epidemic or nursing home shortage either.
Everybody (or at least almost everybody) died before 60, they didn't need nursing home, more evidence of your lack of knowledge.
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People lived long VIBRANT LIVES until they died and most often died HEALTHY in their sleep ---
dude to be honest, who would even believe this.
Quote:
UNLIKE today where 30 to 50 % of us in this country anyway, get cancer or other disease and if we do conventional treatment for it, we are bound to waste away living a horrible quality of life AT GREAT EXPENSE TO US WITH JUST AS GREAT PROFIT TO THE MEDICAL INDUSTRY for the last ten years of our lives -- and we are told over and over that we are living longer healthier lives! HA! What a bunch of hogwash that is.
You really don't know what you are talking about, humans had cancer since the first day we walk the earth.
Quote:
As regards education for N.D.s, educations, accredited medical schools with programs in Naturopathy are 4-6 year long graduate level programs.
Only 4 schools, non of this schools are recognize by anybody, and only 10 states requires this education, meaning 40 states with no education, and 10 states with an education from an unknown institute.
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They are just as long and rigorous as what any general practitioner goes through in medical school for conventional medicine.
Sorry no, Our is 4 years plus 3, that means 7. And the education of a ND is not 6, from your own 4 schools they are 4 to 5. 6 if you take it part time.
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The difference is Naturopaths learn about CAUSES of disease and how to help the patient naturally strengthen his own immune system to fight off and prevent disease.
We learn about CAUSES, CURES, TREATMENT, I guess we are more educated.
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Whereas, conventional doctors learn how to use DRUGS often with serious life threatening side effects and SURGERY to get rid of or cover up SYMPTOMS.
Sorry Pharmacology is not even 25% of our education.
Only to show you the little knowledge you have on the subject and real education.
Quote:
The conventional doctor is much better suited to ACUTE care NOT chronic diseases because, to their credit, they can save lives and at least stabilize the condition. It is the Naturopath who, once the conditon is stabilized has learned how to improve it or eliminate it altogether using safe natural methods.
Please, we cure Diabetes(type 2), High Blood pressure, High Cholesterol, all the time.
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Some states have licensing for Naturopaths and others don't.
Yes, please, tell.... only 10 out of 50... I see a lot of regulation.
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Having a license isn't a guarantee of anything except that the licensee may have passed a test and paid money to the state. So what???? Education and EXPERIENCE and KNOWLEDGE are what is important.
Having a license guarantee a lot, means the person knows the subject, has education and passed regulated test to see if you actually learned. While not having license means, not educated or can't pass a test.
Quote:
I have been going to a Naturopath who was a former Medical Doctor who has two medical degrees -- one in Naturopathic Medicine. Ever since he started treating patients naturally, 30 years ago, he has been helping them cure themselves of so-called "incurable diseases" (incurable by conventional medicine only) such as cancer, AIDS, M.S. Lupus, Diabetes, Irritable Bowel Syndrome, Lymes Diseasee and much more.
This is completely BS. If there is not even one case of AIDS being cure, and if your doctor tells you this, please run away from him as fast as you can. Also there is no cure for lupus.
Who said that lymes disease is incurable?
Who said that Cancer is incurable? Nothing that you have said by this point is actually true, is amazing.
If you fake doctor, that I doubt it really exist and I really doubt he is making this comments about this disease, was true, he would be on every magazine and maybe on the way to win the Noble prize,
Quote:
He and his associates regularly help people get RID of their high blood pressure, high cholesterol, allergies, asthma -- so they can go back to their medical doctors and be taken OFF their prescription drugs as they no longer have the disease or condition they went to their conventional doctor to treat initially. Instead they have their health back.
Why do they need to go back to their doctor, they only need to stop taking them they don't need to go back to the doctor to get off the medication. More evidence that his is BS.
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Go to the conventional doctor if you want to live with your disease.
I actually don't have any at the moment.
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Go to the Naturopathic doctor (not to be confused with holistic or homeopathic) if you want your health back.
Yes go the ND, so that your insurance wont cover it and the ND would bill you cash, and try to sell you expensive vatimans that are 4 time the price in any pharmacy.
Quote:
In this country people need to realize they DO in fact have a choice -- as Europeans and Asians have long understood and taken advantage of for a long time -- which explains why they spend less on medical care and have more to show for it than we (who spend 2 or 3 times as much on it)do.
Yes they do have a choice, real medicine, with actual evidence to back it up, or pseudomedicine, that lives in the gray area, where there is no actual evidence and everytime some one show it doesn't, they reaction is it is a conspiracy, they are paid by the pharmaceuticals. Like if the whole WORLDS is controlled by this companies.
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