Not getting into a deep sleep, chronic fatigue, tired (effects, remedies, natural)
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I take clonopin to put me to sleep and trazadone to keep me asleep but I'd just as soon not take them. Doctors always give me a hard time about the clonopin but it's one of the few medicines that doesn't have side effects on me. I don't know if I've ever tried Lyrica though.
I really want to give it a try with some natural remedies that work at the cause rather than just treating the symptoms. If I try them and none work, I'll give in and stick with the prescriptions even though they don't work half the time and they get addicting.
Even though there's a thread already here about insomnia, it doesn't address this type of sleep problem because it's about an overly active mind keeping you awake.
I have chronic fatigue and have no idea of what it's like to feel rested as I do not really sleep deeply.
For about 20 years I've been taking 1 mg of clonopin at night along with 25 mg trazadone. The clonopin puts me to sleep; the trazadone keeps me asleep. Sort of.
I don't really like being on pills but if I don't take them, I simply don't sleep. Over the years I've tried Valerian root, melatonin, that homeopathic sleep remedy with the mixture of herbs but none of them do anything at all. I could take an entire bottle of Valerian root and not sleep. I've tried chamomile tea=nothing.
If it's due to adrenal fatigue (which I keep reading about) and not "nerves" or overly active mind, then what would work? I don't have a tv in the bedroom, the room is dark, comfy bed, etc. There is something in the homeopathic formula that works a little bit so I might be on the right track with one of their herbs or minerals. Any ideas?
My sleep has always been pretty fragile since I was young, any period of stress would leave me like an owl, and for all the years I've suffered from Adrenal Fatigue insomnia comes and goes and it has lead to my sleeping during the day, which is really bad. But even sleeping during the day sometimes I have periods when I sleep pretty well, so I've been observing myself to see what are the triggers for the periods when it gets really bad.
The first one, of course, is stress. When my cat had to be put to sleep last month I began having trouble several weeks later other stresses added to it and I really began having serious trouble sleeping, but all my efforts, of course, have been geared towards helping my body deal with the stress. But in the course of the years I too have tried a ton of stuff, some worked for a while, others somewhat and I think because there was never just one reason for me not to sleep. But here's part of what I've learned:
Another mineral that is low in people with fibro is magnesium, which can also help relieve some of the muscular pain. But mg. can be hard to absorb orally, especially the most alkaline types, like mg. oxide which must be taken on an empty stomach and may cause loose stools in some people (since I tend more towards constipation to me it's actually a godsend!). The lack of magnesium can produce anxiety and racing thoughts. I began taking mg. back in 1983, in the form of dolomite, and at the time it was of enormous help, I had given birth to my son months earlier and still had a hard time sleeping. I also think it's very interesting that my younger sister, who now has fibro, was told back in those days to take mg. by a naturist doctor in Puerto Rico because she suffered from constipation and migraines and she developed a kidney stone (the oxalate kind can be prevented by taking mg.). My mother also suffered from migraines, and I believe my older sister also have had them, yet, I - thank God! - don't have any idea what they feel like. In fact, I've hardly ever gotten any headaches at all, only a very mild one on my right temple when I've skipped a meal, or am too stressed and my blood pressure goes up, so I credit mg. for that.
Mg. also came to my aid at another time of huge stress, now I take it every single day or use transdermal mg. chloride or "magnesium oil". I tried for the first time in '07 and got hooked, since then it became a staple for me. And when my mother was bedridden and her legs became stiff and painful due to lack of movement, I began massaging her legs with it and the pain that made her cry and claw at everybody when they tried to move her left her after the very first day. After she passed away there was a small bottle left that I'd taken there so I gave it to my sister and made her promise she would try it and she did, later she e-mailed me to tell me that the pain she felt every morning in her feet had disappeared, up until then she'd been mostly skeptical about everything I'd told her to try because she trusted only in prescription drugs.
I also would like to know 1) if you take B vitamins, as the lack of almost all of them will affect sleep significantly. 2) I was going to ask if you ate wheat regularly, but since you mentioned that you're highly allergic I'm thinking there's a good chance that's already off your listen. Even so, however, since eating wheat/gluten can hinder the absorption of many nutrients in affected people, it's very possible that the consequences could linger as it takes time for the damage to the small intestine to be completely repaired (and then one has to optimize the diet to insure absoprtion of all nutrients). I usually have an 11-factor B complex at home, but the extras that have helped me are B6 and in more recent times sublingual B12. I noticed that taking one before bed helps me stay asleep or resume sleep faster if I wake up halfway through. I thought I'd bookmarked articles about how B12 helps sleep but I couldn't find them but you can try Googling "B12 for sleep".
If you feel you're low in serotonin, a condition often associated with fibro, you can try 500 mg. of L-tryptophan on an empty stomach at night, or 5-HTP which is one step ahead towards its conversion to serotonin, and might be better because if per chance you might have a deficiency of niacin, tryptophan would first be used to be converted to that. Incidentally, B12 aids in the conversion of serotonin into melatonin so I believe that's why it works.
And lastly, if you don't get exposed to sunlight, make an effort to do so. Most effective is to go out not too long after the sun is out and let the (indirect) light penetrate your eyes. You could still sun yourself for 15 min. (NO sunscreen or lotions on!) around noon for Vit. D and it would still help because if calcium cannot be properly used that can lead to insomnia too, Adelle Davies used to call calcium pills "lullaby pills".
Someone might wonder why so many different things. Well, the body is very complex and every person AND situation is different, so what may work for one person, may not for another, and what worked well at one time may not the next time around if the cause is different. With me right now I'm sure I would feel better of everything if I could only get myself out in the sun! I think it's been MONTHS since I got any, and now that I'm sleeping during the day I don't even know how I'm going to work it out (but I'll try!).
I had the same sleep issues for years; either falling asleep and waking up after a few hours not able to turn off the thoughts in my head, or, not able to fall asleep to begin with. I tried all the remedies addressed above, benzodiazapines, natural sleep inducing supplements, avoiding all light, tv, computers, regular exercise, you name it. Nothing helped with my mind not being able to let go of pointless thoughts. Then I tried cognitive-behavioral therapy, just 6 or 7 visits, to address my thoughts about sleep. It made a huge difference. Now although I often still wake up in the middle of the night, it's no longer for hours, I wake up, use the tools I learned and am usually able to go back to sleep within 15 minutes. I still have the occasional nights of less than perfect sleep but, NOTHING like I used to experience. And the benzo's, the trazadone, the sleeping pills are all just masking the problem. Once you learn how to re-frame your thoughts about not sleeping, your mind will learn to let go of the pointless thoughts running through your head at 3am. It really works. After 10 straight years of chronic insomnia, I only wish I had done it sooner.
I'm definitely concerned about adrenal exhaustion and some of the research I've done lately pertains to that. I'll read about the iodine. I know about the magnesium, and long ago my doctor said I was very deficient but no matter how much I took--and she even gave me injections-- she didn't know where it was going. The test (where you were supposed to pee out the excess magnesium) never showed any magnesium. I do take magnesium aspartate every day still. Could be that even more would be better. I take calcium citrate but maybe I need even more of that too. Of course I take them separately, the way my dr told me to.
I take Twinlab Daily One Caps which are high in B vitamins and I have tried taking extra B6 also but it was no help. Don't know about extra B12.
L-Tryptophan and 5HTP are things I have already tried. I get enough sunlight because I live next to a beach and I'm not even low in D3, having been checked the last few years. Wheat intolerance, hmmm. I haven't wanted to face that possibility but have been cutting back on it lately. When you are allergic that fight or flight thing can get you tense and cause problems.
I will look into cognitive-behavioral therapy to see what it is. That could be part of it because there's the anxiety of worrying about not being able to fall asleep on top of not being able to fall asleep in the fist place.
Strange thing is when I wake up in the middle of the night and can't go back to sleep there are two things that work: one, if I am in fibro pain, is a few aspirin. The other is homeopathic Calms Forte pills--but I have to take a lot of them. If I just take what it tells me to take, they don't work.
Calms Forte ingredients:
Passiflora 1X | Triple Strength HPUS: For restless sleep from exhaustion
Avena Sativa 1X | Double Strength HPUS: For stress, nervousness
Humulus Lupulus 1X | Double Strength HPUS: For sleeplessness
Chamomilla 2X | HPUS: For nervous irritability
And the following biochemic phosphates for enhancing cellular function: Calcarea Phosphorica 3X HPUS, Ferrum Phosphoricum 3X HPUS, Kali Phosphoricum 3X HPUS, Natrum Phosphoricum 3X HPUS, Magnesia Phosphoricum 3x HPUS
(I know homeopathy works for me, no idea why it works but it does and it is not a placebo effect. ) I've looked up each ingredient because if I could figure out which one (or more) is helping, I could buy it individually. I would buy the herb first to try it out but since herbs can be highly allergenic, I could switch over to the homeopathic version later. One beauty of homeopathy is that the ingredients are not dependent upon the digestive system so you don't get allergic and any malabsorption issues are non existent.
In the past when I or someone else, had problems, I'd see what homeopathic remedy worked and then, to make it stronger, I'd buy the herb itself. I'd sort of use homeopathy as the diagnostic tool. Weird but better than nothing, better than asking the doctor and getting nowhere.
Right now I'm doing one thing at a time so I can know which on works. First is L-theonine, which is in tea. It reduces cortisol levels and increases relaxation. So I'm making some chai tea and drinking it with almond milk during the day. Using decaff tea in the afternoon, evening. If there is any effect, I'll buy the ingredient, Suntheanine, separately and keep drinking the tea too.
The passion flower (sounds weird but I looked it up) is in the Calmes Forte and it was long used as a sleep remedy and was approved as such in the US until 1978. It is still available but they can't call it a sleep remedy because that is unproven. It is approved for insomnia in Germany. For nervous exhaustion, builds up gradually over a month.
I will add your suggestions to my bag of tricks and thank you so much for your suggestions. Feel free to try any of the things I have come up with as we are all different and maybe we'll end up solving this sleep issue for once and for all!
I'm definitely concerned about adrenal exhaustion and some of the research I've done lately pertains to that. I'll read about the iodine. I know about the magnesium, and long ago my doctor said I was very deficient but no matter how much I took--and she even gave me injections-- she didn't know where it was going. The test (where you were supposed to pee out the excess magnesium) never showed any magnesium. I do take magnesium aspartate every day still. Could be that even more would be better. I take calcium citrate but maybe I need even more of that too. Of course I take them separately, the way my dr told me to.
I take Twinlab Daily One Caps which are high in B vitamins and I have tried taking extra B6 also but it was no help. Don't know about extra B12.
L-Tryptophan and 5HTP are things I have already tried. I get enough sunlight because I live next to a beach and I'm not even low in D3, having been checked the last few years. Wheat intolerance, hmmm. I haven't wanted to face that possibility but have been cutting back on it lately. When you are allergic that fight or flight thing can get you tense and cause problems.
I will look into cognitive-behavioral therapy to see what it is. That could be part of it because there's the anxiety of worrying about not being able to fall asleep on top of not being able to fall asleep in the fist place.
Strange thing is when I wake up in the middle of the night and can't go back to sleep there are two things that work: one, if I am in fibro pain, is a few aspirin. The other is homeopathic Calms Forte pills--but I have to take a lot of them. If I just take what it tells me to take, they don't work.
Calms Forte ingredients:
Passiflora 1X | Triple Strength HPUS: For restless sleep from exhaustion
Avena Sativa 1X | Double Strength HPUS: For stress, nervousness
Humulus Lupulus 1X | Double Strength HPUS: For sleeplessness
Chamomilla 2X | HPUS: For nervous irritability
And the following biochemic phosphates for enhancing cellular function: Calcarea Phosphorica 3X HPUS, Ferrum Phosphoricum 3X HPUS, Kali Phosphoricum 3X HPUS, Natrum Phosphoricum 3X HPUS, Magnesia Phosphoricum 3x HPUS
(I know homeopathy works for me, no idea why it works but it does and it is not a placebo effect. ) I've looked up each ingredient because if I could figure out which one (or more) is helping, I could buy it individually. I would buy the herb first to try it out but since herbs can be highly allergenic, I could switch over to the homeopathic version later. One beauty of homeopathy is that the ingredients are not dependent upon the digestive system so you don't get allergic and any malabsorption issues are non existent.
In the past when I or someone else, had problems, I'd see what homeopathic remedy worked and then, to make it stronger, I'd buy the herb itself. I'd sort of use homeopathy as the diagnostic tool. Weird but better than nothing, better than asking the doctor and getting nowhere.
Right now I'm doing one thing at a time so I can know which on works. First is L-theonine, which is in tea. It reduces cortisol levels and increases relaxation. So I'm making some chai tea and drinking it with almond milk during the day. Using decaff tea in the afternoon, evening. If there is any effect, I'll buy the ingredient, Suntheanine, separately and keep drinking the tea too.
The passion flower (sounds weird but I looked it up) is in the Calmes Forte and it was long used as a sleep remedy and was approved as such in the US until 1978. It is still available but they can't call it a sleep remedy because that is unproven. It is approved for insomnia in Germany. For nervous exhaustion, builds up gradually over a month.
I will add your suggestions to my bag of tricks and thank you so much for your suggestions. Feel free to try any of the things I have come up with as we are all different and maybe we'll end up solving this sleep issue for once and for all!
Yep, that's what they are suggestions, and all you can do is consider which one(s) might resonate with you. I once tried Calms Forte and had to take more than suggested too.
I definitely can understand your reluctance to look at the "wheat thing" because I played with it for years, even though all the evidence was there for me, including my father suffering from a diagnosed case of celiac (which is hereditary). What I would do is like you said, reduce it or even stop for a time, especially during the warmer months as it seemed to aggravate my mold induced nasal congestion, but when the cool weather came I started again and soon went totally overboard (a sure sign of allergy/intolerance...) and each and every time was forced to stop when I began feeling really really bad. And each year like new symptoms added to the old ones, more than once I felt like I might be close to dying... Last year I played that "little game" for the last time...
Apparently the antibodies that can attack many organs and I knew had already attacked my thyroid and adrenals really did a number on my liver, which I knew had been sluggish for years and enzyme tests always showed an elevation that caused suspicion of hepatitis. My symptoms were the worst ever and for 3 weeks I had panic attacks almost every single day, the first few days I thought I had died and gone to hell, lol! But when I had another thyroiditis attack I also began suspecting my adrenals because a lot of the symptoms from previous crashes repeated themselves (plus the new ones). I immediately got online and went to a certain health forum where I'd participated some years ago, there I found a link for Dr. Lam, where I learned about "crashes" and what not to do, and another for Dr. Lawrence Wilson's article about copper toxicity as a possible cause of AF. Scared, because my b/p had gone up, I had gone to a clinic but since doctors don't recognize AF as "real", I just did whatever I could myself, but it took me months to feel more or less the way I had before that crash, and I even had another mini-crash 3 mo. after the big one because of exercising more intensely than I should. Since then it looks like I have to be really careful, I'm now trying to recover from another crash, thankfully so far NO panic attacks but I've felt pretty close. As soon as I realized it was another crash, I made myself a "plan" from all I learned last year, but I'm still not sleeping well and apparently my digestion is below par. So, if you suspect you might have AF, please get informed so you won't make some of the mistakes that I have made.
I myself will lookup the C-BT and see if there's any free online resource because when I'm really stressed and nothing works something like that might do the trick (so thanks nurider2002). This reminds me that I have some "Flowdreaming" CDs (kind of like guided imagery), and I very often fell asleep while doing it because it starts by getting you to relax your entire body, and I think one enters an "alpha" mental state... But last year when I was at my worst I couldn't even do that, need to try this time around to see how it goes.
Passion flower was actually prescribed to me by a doctor who had "crossed over", he told me to take capsules 3x/day but I never really did, however, I do order a liquid extract with my online supplement orders to have handy because it also helps lower b/p. And anyway, I grew up around that, my dearest late grandmother who loved herbal/natural remedies always had a bottle of a French product called "Passiflorine" handy and would give it to any of us if we were nervous and/or unable to sleep. I'm planning to order some milk thistle for my liver in bulk so I'm going to add ground passion flower so I can take it the way he told me to.
If you haven't encountered this website already, take some time to read the info in there, which despite of my having read a lot of other articles, I found this much more helpful to myself. He doesn't give supplement advice but talks generally about diet and exercise and I know I made big mistakes with does too, pushing my body more than I should have.
I think Homeopathy works great on sleep issues. You can find a plethora of remedies in health food stores.
I also am a fan of massage and Epsom Salts/Lavender baths.
I have also found it very effective to write down all of my thoughts and worries before bed - therefore leaving my mind free to sleep.
The Silva Method is also an excellent tool for sleep . . . deep breathing, counting back from 100 or 50 or ten (when you get accomplished) . . .
There are so many effective non-harmful sleep remedies out there.
I would also recommend the book "Detox" as an incentive to get off the drugs . . . the toxins are really harmful . . .
Adapt a "clean" lifestyle . . . organic foods and beauty aids (because your skin absorbs everything into your bloodstream) . . .
Yes, homeopathy is wonderful, just not strong enough for me. I still continue to use Calms Forte.
My lifestyle is pretty clean: organic foods when I can get/afford them or grow them, fresh air from living by the ocean, no toxic cleaning products in the house, I make my own laundry detergent and I make my own face cream.
Based upon what I've read here and the research it inspired, I am all set to do a mega order from Vitacost.
I also am a fan of massage and Epsom Salts/Lavender baths.
I'm glad you mentioned E.S. because last night I was thinking that I thought I'd forgotten that! I can't be without a container of it, I even stuff it in capsules and swallow them. I can't say enough good about Epsom Salts, it's been several time that my heart had been racing or had palpitations that were making me feel very ill but I've normalized simply by doing an E.S. soak, it usually takes about a whole hour for my heart to go back to normal but it hasn't failed yet. Magnesium is another of the most important electrolytes and palpitations very often are nothing but an "electrical" malfunction. Too much of any of them can affect how the heart beats. And it's SO relaxing too I recommend it for anyone who feels anxiety or is stressed out.
About lavender, I've been a fan too and keep some lavender oil at home BUT just last night I found out it has strong estrogenic properties so I want to make the caveat that it's NOT a good idea for anyone who may have any problems related to estrogen dominance or using a progesterone cream as it will defeat the purpose.
My lifestyle is pretty clean: organic foods when I can get/afford them or grow them, fresh air from living by the ocean, no toxic cleaning products in the house, I make my own laundry detergent and I make my own face cream.
Ooooooh! We're going to have to start a thread somewhere about natural recipes!!! You should start it with those two!
Lavender is not estrogenic. There was one article, years ago, that alluded to the idea that four boys with gynecomastia were exposed to essential oils: one to tea tree and the other three to lavender. The study was never able to prove that the oils were the cause of the gynecomastia, but they found that lavender in vitro (in a petri dish) created a weak estrogenic action. It was because of this in vitro finding, that the idea that lavender might cause estrogenic action in humans, was formed. But it was never proven that the in vitro action could be replicated in vivo, and this past year it was categorically DISproven.
Here's the link to the study, published in the Journal of Toxicology:
To reiterate: lavender is not, and has never been, estrogenic. It was *believed* to be, but this belief was debunked.
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