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Actually, wouldn't the last 2 be something else then? Hence terms like quadroon, octoroon and other terms in other Western Hemisphere societies?
Those are variations of the mulatto category, it doesn't deny the mixture which is black/white.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod
What about the variation between different societies within the hemisphere socially?
That's a different topic and is essentially what is being discussed. I simply butted into the discussion because Mass said a few things that shows that she (or he, for some reason I associate that account with a woman) ignores, maybe intentionally, that Martelly IS mixed regardless what Haitian society considers him to be (and even there, it appears there's no general agreement among Haitians and the evidence of this is right here in this thread.)
Take this quote as an example:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MassNative2891
Have you ever met a Haitian with his skin color (Grimauds and Grimels) who calls themselves Mulatto? I've only met a few delusional Haitians with that assessment. To be Mulatto one parent has to be fully Caucasian. I'm still in awe of those ignorant Lavalas protestors.
The words in red and dark orange tells me that she doesn't believe that Martelly is truly a mulatto. Whether he is socially within Haitian culture is a different matter (and perhaps there might be some difference within Haitian society as to where the line is drawn and can be seen with the disconnect between MassNative's categorization of Martelly vs how the people in the protest categorized him, with maybe upper/upper-middle class Haitians drawing the line much higher than lower class Haitians), but in reality he is.
The part in blue can be purely a social definition; but considering the other terms I already highlighted, which shows that MassNative simply doesn't believe that Martelly is mulatto (when he is) and not just that Haitian society doesn't considers him mulatto (despite the conflict that is evident in the discussion), then I will have to assume that the part in blue is a literal expression of what she believes to be reality.
Are those Haitians she consider to be delusional truly delusional?
Also I hope you know that saying that Haiti is the most African creole society in the Americas is not the saying the same as claiming that Haiti is African. It is saying that among the myriads of nations which have a creole culture, Haiti exists at the most African end of the continuum, possibly alongside that of Salvador, Brazil. Hope this reduces your agitation as I suspect that the most African aspects of Haiti seem to embarrass you.
I'm against Voodoo culture for a whole different reason than 'embarrassment'. Overall, I guess you're right. I guess my family just doesn't identify with the more African aspects of our culture.
Those are variations of the mulatto category, it doesn't deny the mixture which is black/white.
That's a different topic and is essentially what is being discussed. I simply butted into the discussion because Mass said a few things that shows that she (or he, for some reason I associate that account with a woman) ignores, maybe intentionally, that Martelly IS mixed regardless what Haitian society considers him to be (and even there, it appears there's no general agreement among Haitians and the evidence of this is right here in this thread.)
Take this quote as an example:
The words in red and dark orange tells me that she doesn't believe that Martelly is truly a mulatto. Whether he is socially within Haitian culture is a different matter (and perhaps there might be some difference within Haitian society as to where the line is drawn and can be seen with the disconnect between MassNative's categorization of Martelly vs how the people in the protest categorized him, with maybe upper/upper-middle class Haitians drawing the line much higher than lower class Haitians), but in reality he is.
The part in blue can be purely a social definition; but considering the other terms I already highlighted, which shows that MassNative simply doesn't believe that Martelly is mulatto (when he is) and not just that Haitian society doesn't considers him mulatto (despite the conflict that is evident in the discussion), then I will have to assume that the part in blue is a literal expression of what she believes to be reality.
Are those Haitians she consider to be delusional truly delusional?
Hey hey, enough of the 'she' stuff. I also stated that the first I ever heard of Martelly being Mulatto is in this thread. Then again, I’m not in Haiti as my location shows. I'm sure he'll speak on it eventually; Martelly does not shy away from the spotlight.
Would Martelly be defined as 'Mulatto' in the US after a few generations of mixing? No. If Obama and Martelly were walking down a US street would you say two Mulattos are coming? No. In DR? Yes. In Haiti? Nope. Obviously poor people with only Black descent (protestors) will have some colorism issues. I'm not surprised. Doesn't make them right, just racist.
Defining Martelly as 'Mulatto' is the same as defining David Ortiz as Black. I've heard more than enough Dominicans claim that he isn't. That’s how Dominicans roll.
In Haitian culture ‘Grimaud’ and ‘Grimel’ people are not defined as ‘Mullatte’. They are actual different things. If we take a greater 'Latin American' perspective than yes, he is Mulatto. Haiti definitely uses Quadroon, Octaroon, etc. (but in French obviously).
Lastly, mixed does not necessarily mean Mulatto in Haiti. The president got the label after taking office. He used to be a hero amongst the BLACK peasant masses. Now they’re upset because they aren’t getting handouts.
I’ve noticed only non-Haitians are debating with me about how WE (Haitians) define ourselves. Lexi and NYC, I’d love to hear how your families (and/or regions) view this.
Agree 100%, except you forget that the population of rural Haitians dwarfs that of all those islands combined.
Not necessarily true. You forget the fact that Afro-Brazilians were amongst the last to be freed. DR had Blacks too, they assimilated and DR is now a Mulatto nation with minimal African traditions outside of some rural isolated areas.
Once again, what the heck are you talking about!?!? You are stating how African Haiti is and it's a false statement. Culturally Haiti isn't very African, I don't speak for other islands. You sound like someone who is drawing conclusions based on a HDI as opposed to the nations actual traditions, history and culture.
The major Caribbean Islands contain two Mulatto nations (Cuba & DR) and two Black nations (Haiti & Jamaica). All of them have carved out ethnicities from peoples of multiple ancestries, races, and nations of orgin. TWO (DR & Haiti) of them have over 250 years of independent history and independent ongoings. No one got off the boat yesterday, brother.
African does not equal Black. Cuban Blacks are amongst the most African CULTURALLY outside of Africa because they maintain identifiable African traditions (even the Cubano-Haitiano bands play heavily African music that Haitians don't). Is Kompa, Zouk, or Méringue, African? I'll give you Rara and even then, no one in my family (or myself) has anything to do with Voodooist traditions or festivals. Someone else can talk about how African that may or may not be.
I've already said that ethnically Haitians have the most African ancestry, with Jamaica a CLOSE second (for some reason you think Jamaica isn't). But neither are all Black. Even if they were, it would not be an issue. If you want to simplify for all Jamaicans, go ahead. Haitians aren't the monolith your perceive them to be.
Most of my family is lighter than Martelly (who isn't a Mulatto, those protesters got things twisted) and have never and don't ever consider themselves Mulatto. That's why I was confused initially with the racial accusations thrown at the President. I literally had this conversation yesterday, my Grandmother would have balked at someone like Martelly in her family (glad she never met my father). Undercounted, perhaps. Miniscule? Not really.
Have you ever met a Haitian with his skin color (Grimauds and Grimels) who calls themselves Mulatto? I've only met a few delusional Haitians with that assessment. To be Mulatto one parent has to be fully Caucasian. I'm still in awe of those ignorant Lavalas protestors.
Well said. Too many non-Haitians acting like they know Haiti.
There were a few posters who have warned me that Carib may not be actually WI (or Black). I was sure that he was before. Now I don't know. Still hasn't provided the evidence of how African Haiti is besides how long ago Haiti was freed from slavery.
Which just demostrates how long we've had to form our own culture and way of doing things. It's like talking to a wall. Haitians identify with Haiti and our culture is Haitian. Epi thats it.
Is Suriname the most 'Asian' country in the Americas? I mean they do have 27% East Indians alone. Even though their language (Sranantongo) is a Dutch based Creole with African influences.
Hey hey, enough of the 'she' stuff. I also stated that the first I ever heard of Martelly being Mulatto is in this thread. Then again, I’m not in Haiti as my location shows. I'm sure he'll speak on it eventually; Martelly does not shy away from the spotlight.
Would Martelly be defined as 'Mulatto' in the US after a few generations of mixing? No. If Obama and Martelly were walking down a US street would you say two Mulattos are coming? No. In DR? Yes. In Haiti? Nope. Obviously poor people with only Black descent (protestors) will have some colorism issues. I'm not surprised. Doesn't make them right, just racist.
Defining Martelly as 'Mulatto' is the same as defining David Ortiz as Black. I've heard more than enough Dominicans claim that he isn't. That’s how Dominicans roll.
In Haitian culture ‘Grimaud’ and ‘Grimel’ people are not defined as ‘Mullatte’. They are actual different things. If we take a greater 'Latin American' perspective than yes, he is Mulatto. Haiti definitely uses Quadroon, Octaroon, etc. (but in French obviously).
Lastly, mixed does not necessarily mean Mulatto in Haiti. The president got the label after taking office. He used to be a hero amongst the BLACK peasant masses. Now they’re upset because they aren’t getting handouts.
I’ve noticed only non-Haitians are debating with me about how WE (Haitians) define ourselves. Lexi and NYC, I’d love to hear how your families (and/or regions) view this.
I've met plenty of Haitians who resemble the president. One of them who use to date my best friend would get offended if you called her mulatto and swore up and down that she was not one wether here or in Haiti.
We don't need to bring the issue that exist in the USA into the discussion, unless you are hoping that due to most visitors to this website are from the USA, that this will give you an extra 'advantage' in the discussion.
Like I said before, regardless what he is considered socially, he is a mulatto and the same with Obama et al.
A lie repeated a million times is still a lie by the time its all said and done. Socially people can call themselves what they want, but reality doesn't change to make people look good or bad. People simply are what they are regardless if they or anyone else likes it or not.
And in Cuba, Panama, parts of Colombia, Brazil, and various countries in Africa. Even in Spain many know when they see a mixed person.
Well, in this thread we have evidence that that is not entirely true.
You mean that they will call people what they are when they are angry? I'm having a hard time imagining that had Aristide been in power, they would had protested with anti-mulatto chants.
Well, on the internet anyone can say that they 'heard more than enough' people say this or that, but in reality no one considers David Ortiz anything other than black.
But right here in this thread there is evidence that this isn't always the case.
This is also the perspective of reality.
For example, this is Martelly (unknown composition because he hasn't taken, or made public the results of, an ancestry DNA test):
And this is African-American Cory Booker (47% African /45% European):
See, reality says he's mulatto, its not the 'Latin American' perspective. The Haitian black masses may not be the most educated people in the world, but they know what they see. Maybe they hold it in during the good times, but when things go sour it all comes out.
I think anyone that sings in Creole will become popular among the people that only know that language, which in Haiti is the masses. Had he sung in French, a language that in Haiti is the domain mostly of the elite mulattoes, then things would had been different.
Point is that, from what is evident in this thread, the black peasant masses, as you call them, know very well who's black and who's not. Again, if Aristide would had been in power and the masses were not happy with him, I think everyone knows that no one would be pointing him out as a mulatto. Not in Haiti or anywhere else for that matter.
Could it possibly be that you don't want Martelly to be mulatto?
I can't speak for other non-Haitians, but what I have been saying here is backed by actual evidence presented in this very thread. I think you will have to go down to Haiti, find the 'black peasant masses' quoted in the article, and debate with them why they called mulatto Martelly a mulatto. I think its obvious why, but its good to settle things from the actual source.
All I'm saying is that apparently there are many Haitians that call a spade a spade, especially when they are angry.
It would be interesting if Martelly would do an ancestry DNA test, but I'm sure as long as he's president of Haiti that will not happen, especially after the protest where the so-called black peasants called him out. Maybe once he's out of office.
Again I think you're misunderstanding mass native. Just because someone looks like a mullato doesn't mean that they are considered a mullato. Just like you pointed out Obama being a mulatto all though true he is still considered a black president.
And he receives racial hatred from bigots in the nation as a "black president"
I don't think mass native has an issue the president being mullato, it's the president himself who has never considered himself that and mass native has given you the terms for his description.
Also like you said Haiti's black masses aren't the most educated people, and they are not. If the president was giving them hand outs they would gladly consider him black so I hope that's not your proof.
Again we are Haitians speaking from experience. Caribny is making assumptions based off his bias research.
I'm against Voodoo culture for a whole different reason than 'embarrassment'. Overall, I guess you're right. I guess my family just doesn't identify with the more African aspects of our culture.
And that is your right. If I were honest with you I will also suggest that many of these religions are pre scientific and aren't applicable in today's science driven world.
I would also say the same about those Catholics who spend too much on exorcisms, miracles, etc. Also about the Evangelicals in the Appalachia who play with snakes and who literally interpret every word in the old testiment.
We don't need to bring the issue that exist in the USA into the discussion, unless you are hoping that due to most visitors to this website are from the USA, that this will give you an extra 'advantage' in the discussion.
.
Why don't you accept the fact that in Haiti, and in most parts of the Caribbean, Martelly isn't a mulatto. He is black (and not especially light skinned either.
You scream that we must accept every Latin American with 90% African ancestry as being mixed because of their 10% non African.
So why don't you accept the fact that Martelly is more African than European and within the context of Haiti, isn't a mulatto.
Besides I have met Cubans who are more mixed than Martelly and who self identify as BLACK.
Also if you whiten Cory Booker who can easily pass as white, light eyes and all. Do the same to Martelly and he is an albino.
All of these are social constructs. Respect the fact that in the USA Adam Clayton Powell is white, in the non Hispanic Caribbean he is mulatto, and in Latin America he is white.
Or your definition of Whiteness is too broad. Mexicans or Hispanics are mixed race people. They are mostly mixed with Native American and Spanish (White). So by American standards, if they were to claim one race, it would be Native American not White. It sounds like you're trying a little too hard, but you're free to believe whatever you wish. As I said, I don't know a single Mexican who claims to be White and they damn sure don't look White.
You are very ignorant.
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