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It is a way to say that love and hate can walk together as joy and pain. With so many military bases in Europe after WWII and the fact USA never leave we aren't free but colonized and of course there is a feeling of... axfissia.
It is indeed a complex argument, it is easy to understand why US don't go away from Europe, it is something that has much to do with geopolitical issues, but also with the irrational feeling of keeping ' a piece of Old Europe for my own', as my fiancé says.
OK, understandable to some degree.
But consider this, the problem of bases could be solved if the various NATO countries were to say to the U.S.: Look, we are really not interested in this alliance any longer. Take your ball and bat, and go home...and we will call it a day.
If enough Europeans feel this is a problem, then they should be looking to their own politicians to solve it by taking a proactive position. If told to leave the U.S. would object strenuously, you may be sure. But it is not going to say, NO! Although it might use economic pressure as a form of retaliation. However, if enough European citizens want the U.S. out, then these are chances that have to be taken.
I live in Europe, and I do not see hatred for the U.S. in the major media, nor among people in the the street, and I see only a small number of people wanting U.S. bases to be closed.
We are the worlds bully I don't blame everyone for hating us.
When my wife travels abroad she uses her Canadian passport because people treat her much nicer.
Seriously? That is ridiculous. The best way to change perceptions is to attack them head-on, not avoid them altogether.
"The world's bully" is highly subjective; while I won't defend American foreign policy, I also will argue the most powerful countries in the world will always use their might in some capacity. I also can't think of any powerful countries/kingdoms/empires throughout history which weren't aggressors both locally and abroad.
I only follow the average complainings of bf and average people in his country about Europe and take note.
OK, well then you and all your friends are over analyzing this.
Your concept IS entertaining though! Fascinating insight into the minds of people who probably should be spending more time worrying about their own economy and country.
Originally Posted by wheelsup
We are the worlds bully I don't blame everyone for hating us.
When my wife travels abroad she uses her Canadian passport because people treat her much nicer.
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Originally Posted by Natural510
Seriously? That is ridiculous. The best way to change perceptions is to attack them head-on, not avoid them altogether.
"The world's bully" is highly subjective; while I won't defend American foreign policy, I also will argue the most powerful countries in the world will always use their might in some capacity. I also can't think of any powerful countries/kingdoms/empires throughout history which weren't aggressors both locally and abroad.
Right on - and I find the idea of Germans, "Romans," Greeks, Russians, Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese, and French being offended by another nation's power or aggression to be quite ironic.
I can't IMAGINE being nervous about carrying or showing my US passport. I've lived in Europe for three years, and go back every few years to catch up and revisit some of my favorite places, and to discover new places (went to Central Europe last year and am going to the UK next year). Since I am from Texas, I have an accent that many people remark on. Now, I don't know their private thoughts (and frankly don't care what their private thoughts are) but I can tell you that almost without exception (the exception being some odd people in Austria), Europeans have been polite, friendly, helpful, and conversational with my family and with me. When they realize I am from Texas, they often become even more animated and conversational, and start asking me all sorts of questions about life in Texas - friendly questions, not accusatory ones.
I've had European shop owners, on several occasions, simply GIVE me something small I was intending to buy - a drink, a small trinket, a dessert, that sort of thing. I've had Europeans I've never met sit down with me and end up buying my dinner, or my beer - absolutely refusing to let me pay. I've been in European restaurants where a party was going on, and been invited to join the party several times - one time it was a party for a couple's 50th anniversary (in the country near the Polish border), and the family was so generous and kind that the next thing we knew, we were drinking and joining in on Eastern European folk dances - which was hilarious! This is actually one of my favorite memories. We ended up going home with a family later that evening and sitting out on their patio talking about our two countries till about three am - and we had never met them before that evening.
Once when I was out in the countryside of the Czech Republic, and stopped for dinner, the restaurant owner actually went to the back, and brought out two small flags - an American flag and a Czech flag - and put them in a little vase in the middle of our table, and then sat down with us and had two rounds of beers delivered while we chatted, at no cost. I thought that was a lovely gesture.
In other words, I've never had a negative situation happen or develop when I identified myself as an American, and a Texan.
I'm not using per capita (which is an average). I'm using the median - which means half the households make more and half make less. and yes, as i said, the poverty level is about half the median.
Alright, so we agree that people who are considered 'poor' in the US make nowhere near $50,000.
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I'm not resorting to anything. My point from the beginning has been that you should compare apples to apples and that the US isn't one state. It's 50 of them plus a dozen territories. Compare the Netherlands to Massachusetts. Compare the UK to New York. Compare Nebraska to Poland.
Huh? Comparing a state to a country isn't comparing apples to apples.
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I'm well aware of what the EU is but it's a useful way to distinguish between "developed" europe and the former soviet bloc so I use it. That said, it does have an increasingly tied together economic system and functions in many ways like the US economy (controlling interstate commerce, common currency, common environmental laws, etc.) The main difference being that the US can't decide to not welcome or expel states that are underperforming.
The EU is not a useful way to distinguish between "developed" Europe and the former Soviet bloc because:
1) many former Soviet bloc countries are now part of the EU
2) several developed European countries are not part of the EU (Norway, Switzerland, Iceland, Monaco)
3) some countries in the EU can be considered underdeveloped (notably Romania and Bulgaria)
Not all EU countries are part of the Eurozone.
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As is hard for most Europeans to understand - each state in the US has its own legislature and makes its own laws on almost everything. There are very few powers that are the sole domain of the federal government - those powers typically relate to trade (to include national infrastructure), currency and the military and, of course, enforcing the federal constitution. The only real difference between the US and the EU here is the part about a unified military and a unified banking system - with both of those aspects already in the pipeline for the EU.
Not at all hard to understand for most Europeans because many European countries have a similar federal system.
There are many more differences between the EU and US (which I won't get into here because the thread is going off topic enough as it is). Most important to remember is that apart from legislation concerning the functioning of the internal market, the EU is basically an intergovernmental institution and any Member State can choose to veto or opt out of legislation.
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The "good parts" of the US don't exist because of the sheer size of the country or because of climate. There are differences between states because they have different cultures, different laws and different economies.
And the size of the country plays a part in this. Anyway, I was just mentioning some qualities of the US that are entirely attributable to the sheer size of the country (climate and nature), that doesn't mean that these are the only qualities of the US.
No, YOU take a look at the map. Almost all developing countries have a Gini coefficient similar or worse than the US. Care to show me any First World country with higher income inequality than the US? This is exactly the kind of source I would use to prove my point but thank you for doing it for me
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Exactly. I contrasted immigrants from the Maghreb to those from (sub-saharan) africa because the two are culturally distinct and one has a much longer history of contact and colonization with Europe, and which, wittingly or otherwise you also just did it in that sentence.
No, they have a history of colonization with a specific European country. Again, speaking French or knowing a bit about French culture will not help you one bit when you're moving to Sweden.
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your point was that europe was being overwhelmed in their efforts to integrate immigrants from Asia, africa and the ME because a) there are a lot of them and b)they're too hard to assimilate because they're so different.
That's true but that's not the same as saying WE is being "flooded" with immigrants. And you forgot to mention c) some of them refuse to integrate.
The fact is that these immigrant groups don't number more than 1 or 2% of national populations[/quote]
More like 5-10%
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If you're trying to hoist me on my own petard you'll have to try harder. Your entire argument is based on generalizations - generalizing about the US, about Europe and about immigration in both places. You can't claim on one hand that people in eastern europe, turkey and north africa have no connection to western europe or life in those countries then on the other hand say, "ok, well, they might understand the west but it won't help them if they land in a country that wasn't a colonial power or where that language isn't spoken."
No, what I said was that even IF immigrants from e.g. a former French colony knew a bit about French language and culture, it won't help them much when they're trying to integrate into Swedish society because Sweden has a different language and culture. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.
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I'm also not sure if it's the european arrogance coming through but in my thousands of interactions with immigrants in europe I've never met one who didn't already speak several languages, even if they were still learning the language of the country they were in at the time.
That's certainly not my experience. What European countries and cities did you go to?
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First, I said most americans don't go to church not "most americans are atheists". Second, I didn't say it was universally unimportant. My point was that what church you go to is unimportant as in - it's trivial to say that because Mexicans are mostly Catholic that they'll fit in well in the US because most americans don't care that much what your religion is because we have so many religions already. Yes, even in the South where Catholics have always been a clear minority there are Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Episcopalians and various evangelical christian sects. Besides, Mexicans are not (for the most part) settling in the rural south where going to church is a big deal. They're settling in bigger cities like Raleigh, Charlotte, Atlanta, Nashville, etc because that's where the work is and in those cities people don't typically have the time to worry about what church their neighbor goes to nor are they generally of the character that they would even if they had the time.
(and I seriously hope you're getting the irony of all this - of you trying to school an American on his own culture from things you've read or seen on TV - in a thread about anti-americanism)
No, you said that "religion is really insignificant in the US" and "it's a non-issue". I have read literally hundreds of testimonies from Americans who complain about people evangelizing and asking them what church they go to. Take a look at the Atheist/Agnostic section on this board for some examples. Also, from Gallup:
In 2011, only 19% of Americans said religion was not very important in their lives. Only 15% of Americans never go to church. The majority of Americans go to church at least once a month.
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OK. So, let's break down your national problem for a minute. Your country is:
81% Dutch
2.2% Turkish
2.4% Indonesians (former Dutch Colony)
2% Surinamese (former Dutch Colony)
1% Caribbean (former Dutch Colonies)
5% Other EU countries
5% rest of world
(i rounded so total doesn't equal 100)
And, btw, 3% of that "rest of world" is made up of eastern europeans, americans, australians, canadians, etc. So, really, you're talking ~4% of the population who may or may not have a connection to western culture and/or western religions and who can't easily assimilate into Dutch culture by the 2nd generation.
This doesn't accurately reflect the immigration problem in the Netherlands. Are YOU really telling ME how integration is working in the Netherlands? Most immigrants are concentrated in certain areas. As I said, the major cities like Amsterdam and Rotterdam have an immigrant population of over 50%. Take a look at this documentary I posted earlier, it explains the issues I have mentioned before:
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Again, the difference in wealth between the Ukraine and the Czech Republic is the same as between the US and Mexico. Cultural differences? Well, in the US, when greeting someone we might say, "Hi, how are you?" and a mexican would say "Hola, como esta usted?". A Czech in the same situation would say "Dobrý den, Jak se máš?" and a Ukrainian would say (transliterated from Cyrillic) "Dobroho dnya, jak sya mayesh?" Which is the same thing in a different accent. And, perhaps most importantly, the Kievan can walk down any street in Prague and not be a visible minority. In France, no one knows I'm not French until they hear my accent.
Wait, so are you now saying that the Ukraine and the Czech Republic are not that culturally different because the people look the same and share some linguistic similarities? Yet at the same time, you argue that there are many cultural differences between US states. Do people from Massachusetts really look and talk that differently compared to people from New York?
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Limbaugh's obnoxiousness is his persona but what he has to say (and yes, that's also obnoxious) isn't much different than Wilders and even then, Limbaugh's audience is perhaps 2% of Americans.
Limbaugh and Wilders have nothing in common apart from their views on immigration (and for Wilders, only non-Western immigration is a problem. After all, his wife is Hungarian). Wilders is more left-wing than most Democrats when it comes to economic policies, environmentalism, women's and animal's rights, secularism, etc.
The United States is a multiracial, multicultural nation of over 300 million people. Almost every language around the world is spoken here. We are not and can never be the Netherlands, Sweden, or any other nation. You don't have to go to one of our largest cities to find "diversity". You can find it in the smallest towns in the most unlikely places. For example, one community with the highest percentage of Vietnamese Americans is not in California. It is Bayou La Batre, Alabama.
These are just two examples of diversity in rural America.
The point I'm trying to make is that it is a myth that the United States is a monolithic, conformist nation where no one knows any language other than English and no religion other than Christianity.
God bless.
Yes, but 35-40 years ago, when I was a teenaged kid, living in Missouri, there was still some truth to that characterisation of the US...at least of the US Midwest. Those Vietnamese didn't start arriving until the late 1970's, the Lebanese until the 1980's and the Somalis even later. What I'm trying to say is that media people are as lazy as any other people. They love to put together their stories using pre-fabricated building blocks from their archives. That makes life so much easier for them, so they don't change their stories until they have to. The result is that perception of the truth in the public eye always lags behind the actual truth, sometimes by decades. That, by the way, is true on both sides of the Atlantic.
And, by the way, it isn't just the media. Think of all those urban legends being spread around the web that are total nonsense and yet many people believe them, nonetheless. People, in general, are lazy. They believe whatever is easiest for them to wrap their minds around.
Last edited by NomineMalum; 07-24-2012 at 02:47 PM..
Mouldy, you're right. However, the right wing seems to think that Christianity is the state religion in the U.S., and that Caucasians-Anglo Saxons in the U.S. are somehow being discriminated against. They promote these ideas quite heartily and spend plenty of millions doing so, backing legislators willing to promote legislation to back these ideas.
That, is the problem.
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Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo
The point I'm trying to make is that it is a myth that the United States is a monolithic, conformist nation where no one knows any language other than English and no religion other than Christianity. God bless.
But consider this, the problem of bases could be solved if the various NATO countries were to say to the U.S.: Look, we are really not interested in this alliance any longer. Take your ball and bat, and go home...and we will call it a day.
If enough Europeans feel this is a problem, then they should be looking to their own politicians to solve it by taking a proactive position. If told to leave the U.S. would object strenuously, you may be sure. But it is not going to say, NO! Although it might use economic pressure as a form of retaliation. However, if enough European citizens want the U.S. out, then these are chances that have to be taken.
I live in Europe, and I do not see hatred for the U.S. in the major media, nor among people in the the street, and I see only a small number of people wanting U.S. bases to be closed.
Do you know what's the 'strategy of tension'? In Italy it has been gone on for all the 70s: false flags and terrorism against the population. Piazza Fontana, Piazza Loggia, Ustica, and so on.
secret services. NOR ITALIAN NOR EUROPEAN.
Do a research, if u will have the time and the will- about geopolitical strategy of Eurasia for Europe.
Eurasia- the continental union between Europe and Russia- has been at the core of the two WWII
America is a thalassocracy, based on maritime law and the control of the waters.
Europe, as the Roman Empire has been with more than 85.000 km in lands which had never seen, is a terrestrial power because of its position in the Caucasus, and so it was the Byzantine Empire- then Romanov Empire of Russia, when the Empress Sophia Paleologa of Constantinople went to Russia to marry Czar Ivan III.
It's normal for us to go easily to East than to West.
Energetic purposes, similar cultures, geographical affairs and natural link.
As French President De Gaulle once said, ' Europe is a reality that goes from Portugal to the Urals in Russia, in Altaic Plateau. Then we meet Asia.'
The Romans met the Celestial Empire of China when Trajan arrived next to India in 117 b.C.- they did agreements with the Chines Empire of trading and friendship. They never fought: two great entities linked by a natural limes don't need to.
Of course the geopolitical terrestrial union between Russia and Europe breaks the strategical link between America and Europe, and condemn America to isolationism in the Atlantic, while the merchant trade roads are pushing their axis next to China and Russia again.
Of course the USA corporations who OWN you all, that lucky 1% of super rich oligarchs, cannot accept this.
So if you study a little bit of geopolitics, you will know the next war between Europe and America, or Russia and America, is already planned.
Brzezinski knows this very well- he knows also the determination of Europe- the elites of Europe- to realize Eurasia, first or after. This concept hasn't faded away neither with two world war- and this is also the end of the transnational finance London- based in the City and Wall Street. Three royal dynasties- House of France, House of Russia, House of Iran- has been removed by the finance to block the Eurasiatic dream.
It is not a matter of choice: we cannot stand anymore this slavery.
Last edited by giuliaclaudiaromana; 07-24-2012 at 07:17 PM..
OK, well then you and all your friends are over analyzing this.
Your concept IS entertaining though! Fascinating insight into the minds of people who probably should be spending more time worrying about their own economy and country.
We care about our country. It's YOU and your 1% corporativists that have a stranghold HERE for some sort of colonizing power. better for you reading what Kissinger thought about the richness in Europe: for him it was unacceptable that Europe, a US colony ( yes, he used this term ), could be richer than the average americans.
So please shut up if you don't know what it means having the american rating agencies who are trying to destroy the eurozone because they don't want an independent Europe with a currency that is going to undermine the dominant position of the dollar- a currency that is accepted by China, Russia, India, Iran, Brazil, and all the world that has enough of the super inflated and in debt economy of USA- an economy which won't ever pay his huge debt- the Chineses know this well. But doing war is simpler, for the average american mentality, than repaying the T bonds and the toxic assets of YOUR banks. Or you forget that the crisis of the subprimes has exploded in America first, then in 2008 Lehman collapsed, and this invested the WHOLE world?
Do you want to make the world think the crisis has been generated by Europe? Well, NO: it was a fake crisis generated in USA to stop the Euro as currency.
Or you want to make me believe that you americans aren't aware of the fact that we are ALREADY at war again? A financial war, for the moment. Between America and Europe, again.
Third time in history. America lives on foreign debts and then when it comes to pay pr they cannot, kills the creditors. Europe learned the lesson well- after the 1929 artificial crisis. The war in Europe helped USA to cancel their debts- it was not a war toward Hitler or for the 'poor jews' ( hm... )- but because the City and Wall Street had too high to be repaid debts.
Impudent people. How dare you all to think to give lessons in history and soiety to an European? We made you by flesh and bones, by DNA and by skin, we know what Devil we did.
This time we won't fall for a renegade nation with no shame.
And yes, Europe is definitely NOT friendly to USA. This is the reason why my bf wants to repair the damage.
We suffered too much because of USA.
The Europeans who don't remember, the Europeans with no memory, it is better they took a decent history book- a book written not post 1945, when the so called atlantic 'winners' rewrite our history and thrown shame on us all- allies and enemies.
We have been threated like ' The Absolute Evil' much before the muslims nowadays.
And you dare to ask why Europeans, in their genetics, remember even vaguely the pain of their grannies and granpas?
When USA lied on all, especially on historical facts, and told us we have been 'liberated', when we have been brutally colonized and in Europe there were also american concentration camps for italians, germans, and even for dissident frenches?
No, thanks. We try to have no anger, we are able to hid it decently also; but when it comes to say the truth, it's in our blood now to want to get rid of you from our land. How is for USA to sense and taste this feeling, to be hated even by the same flesh they came out?
We have nothing to learn from Americans. And maybe this is the most complete answer that guy can read about anti americanism in Europe.
And now I go because I am tired of all.
Last edited by giuliaclaudiaromana; 07-24-2012 at 07:18 PM..
Wow, talk about revisionist history. You lost me with the "poor jews" statement - in quotes.
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take a look at the map - India doesnt have a 36.8 index because of its great wealth distribution schemes. Ditto Cambodia. Africa, par chance? 
Most immigrants are concentrated in certain areas. As I said, the major cities like Amsterdam and Rotterdam have an immigrant population of over 50%. Take a look at this documentary I posted earlier, it explains the issues I have mentioned before:
Yet at the same time, you argue that there are many cultural differences between US states. Do people from Massachusetts really look and talk that differently compared to people from New York? 