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View Poll Results: Which cuisine do you prefer?
Anglo Caribbean 27 40.91%
French Caribbean 16 24.24%
Spanish Caribbean 23 34.85%
Voters: 66. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-11-2020, 06:37 PM
 
Location: Somewhere on the Moon.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
I'm curious though--there was also slaveholders with a lot of money at one point and presumably they would have liked to have spent some of that money and other people's labor on food at some point. I mean, New Orleans has some delightful old Creole dishes partially as a result of that, so would none of that have happened at all in any of the Caribbean countries? Haiti I would understand from having fought for its independence so early on, but the others?

I'm also curious if rotis, curries and other Indian-inspired or transplanted dishes have made their way throughout the English Caribbean or even non-Anglophone Caribbean places. Or if jerk has also made its way out of Jamaica to become commonplace.
In the Dominican Republic (I'm assuming 908Boi will like this, wink, wink) that doesn't really apply.

The XVIII century is known as "The Century of Misery" in Dominican historical annals. That horrible name for 100 years refers to the collapse of the Dominican economy after Gov Osorio imposed the "Devastations of 1605-06," basically a time of destruction of all the towns along the northern coast and in the western part of the island and forceful emigration of the people from there and surrounding rural areas to new towns established near Santo Domingo. The names of some of these new towns is a combination of the names of the towns that were destroyed, such as Bayaguana (Bayajá, which was located in the area of Fort Liberte, Haiti; and La Yaguana which was on the spot that Port-au-Prince, Haiti is now) or Monte Plata (combination of Monte Cristi, where the current Monte Cristi is located; and Puerto Plata where the current city of the same name is located).

There were also earthquakes that affected many parts of the island. The arrival of the French who literally had to bev killed off in the 1800's first by the Haitians and then by the Dominicans in order for them to stop ruling anywhere on the island, but the western part was already in the eyes of Dominicans since Haiti had already been established as a country with a completely different culture, language, political system, economy, etc from the Dominicans. There was a plague that also spread in that century (similar to what the world is now going through Covid, but much deadlier because people didn't know what truly caused its spread since germ and virus theories weren't created for seversl centuries later) and that affected mostly the blacks who were reduced to such levels that entire crops such as Cocoa went to waste since there were hardly any hands to harvest them and exported to Europe, and finished killing off the few Taino indians that survived the era of the Conquest. The overall population of the territory simply went downwards year after year until it hit rock bottom in the 1730's with the whopping number of 6,000 for the entire territory. There were several pirate invasions including the failed attempt of William Penn from England,his failure to capture Santo Domingo lead him to give it a last minute shot at attacking New Seville, Jamaica and there he had success, to the point that because of his invasion Jamaica became a British colony. There were also many other misfortunes after misfortunes on Spanish Hispaniola in that century.

The end result was that from very early in the century the wealth of the richest people decreased and along with that the racial hierchies typical of wealthier colonies. This lead to several things, including an increasing mixture between the races based on the elimination of the hardified social hierchies that possessing lots of money tends to create in them. This had an effect on the food.

Previously there was types of foods consumed by the rich and those fonsumed by the poor. Since practically everyone was poor, including the rich which in that time was poor themselves compared to the rich elsewhere, the type of food consumption became a general thing. It was at this time that things such as the African derived Mangú became a breakfast meal among "the rich" and the poor; among the whites, the blacks, and the mixed. This happened with many food items and plates which was marker of economic class became general for lack of money. The Catholic Church had to accommodate the poverty of the people, that the ladies that were "rich" (who tended to share the dresses with other women for lack of money and materials to make new dresses) gave mass before the sun came out on Sunday in order to allow the darkness cover the raggity clothes of "the rich" ladies. The level of poverty that affected everyone was to the extreme.

Even today food isn't much of a social marker smong Dominicans. Everybody, from the richest to the poorest, eat the same things. Obviously, in rich households the food is more abundant and presented in a more elegantly way while smong the poor the quantity is considerably less and the presentation isn't pretentious at all, but its the same thing. Everybody eats mangú for breakfast, eats chicharrones (cracked pork skin boiled in cooking oil until its hard and crispy), everybody eats empanadas, everybody enjoys tostones, etc. Now there's international foods too such as pizza, burgers, hot dog, etc; but, that's relatively recent and has been introduced from abroad. The division where certain foods are only for the rich and other foods are consumed only by the poor doesn't really exist in the DR. At a certain level, I think it has to be seen to be believed.
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Old 08-11-2020, 07:43 PM
 
Location: D.C. / I-95
2,751 posts, read 2,424,599 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
I don't see anything I said so far that contradicts any map or anything else that I brought here.


Nope! On that particular topic the only one referring to the DR is you. The entire time I've referred to this particular topic I've spoken of the Spanish Caribbean or the non-Hispanic Caribbean, in both cases nothing changes regarding which places are which. Last I checked, the Spanish Caribbean doesn't limit itself to the Dominican Republic. That is simply the way it is and neither you or me had something to do with that and things will not change to accommodate anyone.

I think some people, and this is a very personal opinion based on what I've noticed here for some time now, should react to what is actually said and leave behind whatever preconceived ideas they might have about anyone. In the past I notice this dichotomy in person as certain individuals would give me a certain type of treatment (mainly addressing arguments) while they only knew about me whatever they would gather through looks alone, but the moment they would know something deeper, often times because I would tell them on a question they had, suddenly their treatment changes (and it isn't always for the worse). Those preconceived notions needs to be left hanging with the jacket and all of that and simply take things as they are said. The words and meanings basically remain the same, the only thing that changes are those peeconceived notions others have and the inability of some not leaving those things at the door.

Hopefully you will be kind enough to let everyone here know when exactly did Cuba and Puerto Rico stop being part of the Spanish Caribbean, because I definitely missed that boat!


Dairy consumption in the non-Hispanic Caribbean is noticibly lower than in the Spanish Caribbean. No amount of wishful thinking will make that not true. It just is.
Classic moving the goal post fallacies. I typed more but I really have no desire to go back and forth with someone with no intention of good faith arguments. Interestingly I see this often from posters from certain countries.
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Old 08-12-2020, 10:13 AM
 
Location: Canada
7,363 posts, read 8,411,716 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Ponche de crema is actually originally from Spain, even the name is in Spanish.

Trinidad is different from many places in the Caribbean. Just look at the names of many places. Sure, Port of Spain is known named in English, but that was a translating of its original name Puerto España. The second largest city on the island is still named San Fernando instead of Saint Ferdinand. The island itself is still named Trinidad which is a Spanish word, otherwise in English it would be Trinity. In addittion, Venezuela is literally visible from many areas of the coast.



Are you sure?

Lets look at milk consumption for 2017 as a proxy for dairy products, afterall what's more dairy than milk?





https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/p...n=NorthAmerica


A significant portion of Dominicans are lactose intolerance, but nit the majority... yet at least. Things might change in the future. Actually, its a guarantee they will change as many other things have change already, and this is beyond the typical changes that time creates.
.

Interesting Guatemala is so low on consuming dairy products on that map, or is that not enough data? Guatemalans consume quite a bit of dairy products, or at least I thought they did. Lots of cheese is made there. Maybe its a mestizo/criollo thing, I don't know. I have family from a cattle ranching region of the country, where lots of milk and dairy products are produced. My fam in the city consumes cheese regularly so that map was a bit of a surprise to me.
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Old 08-12-2020, 02:26 PM
 
Location: Somewhere on the Moon.
10,110 posts, read 14,985,985 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLuis View Post
Interesting Guatemala is so low on consuming dairy products on that map, or is that not enough data? Guatemalans consume quite a bit of dairy products, or at least I thought they did. Lots of cheese is made there. Maybe its a mestizo/criollo thing, I don't know. I have family from a cattle ranching region of the country, where lots of milk and dairy products are produced. My fam in the city consumes cheese regularly so that map was a bit of a surprise to me.
That's only milk consumption and while it is used as a proxy for dairy consumption in this thread, some discrepancies are bound to be present since some places may have higher milk consumption and lower cheese consumption and vice versa (and other dairy products).

Guatemala has a lot of people though. Guatemala is the largest country (in population size) of Central America & Caribbean region, plus Guatemala City is the largest urban place in the entire Central America & Caribbean region too. Even if consumption for milk is lower than expected, with so many people even having a minority of abid consumers of milk could be a lot in consuming and monetary terms.

Lets say if one place has 100 million people and another 1 million, but milk consumption is done by 10% of the population in the first and 99% of the population in the latter, from a business perspective having a milk business in the first is better. There are more actual consumers, so opportunities for the milk business is greater than in the second country. Now, the first country can be a developing country where poverty affects lets say half the population and the second one a developed country where maybe 2% are truly poor. From a milk business point of view, the first country is still better because it offers more opportunity than the second country.

Another example is that the figures are for milk, but not for the type of milk. For example, for the Dominican Republic it shows that the country has a decent milk consumption, but I can guarantee you its a different milk from the type usually sold in Guatemala. In Guatemala the most common milk sold is the liquid type that requires constant refrigeration. In the Dominican Republic its either UTH milk which can be stored at room temperature without getting spoiled, but it requires refrigeration after the first opening or powder milk which is reconstituted for drinking by mixing the powder with water. That can be stored at room temperature even after the can is open for the first time. In fact, in Guatemalan supermarkets the milk section is like in the USA and many other countries, a refrigerated section with plenty of liquid milk. In the Dominican Republic such places usually don't exist in supermarkets (there are refrigerated sections for meats, but usually there's no refrigerated section for milk brands), since the milk is on a regular shelf in carton looking boxes for the most part. This can, and often do, creates a dilemma for some first foreigners because they can't find the milk at the supermarkets. That's because they are searching for the type of milk they purchase at their home countries and the DR is one place where that is different. They literally passes by the milk, they simply don't recognize it because they are used to buy liquid milk in a refrigirated section, not some powder or UTH milk sitting at room temperature at some random aisle. lol

In anycase, in that last comparison the Dominican and Gustemalan milk business is comparable only on total milk consumed (or it can be per capita), but not comparable on the type of milk because one country consumes most of its milk in one format while another does it in another format. In that case, they are apple and orange.

Last edited by AntonioR; 08-12-2020 at 02:55 PM..
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Old 08-12-2020, 04:15 PM
 
Location: Somewhere on the Moon.
10,110 posts, read 14,985,985 times
Reputation: 10398
I made a typo below (in bold and underlined). It shoukd say XVII century (1600's).
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
In the Dominican Republic (I'm assuming 908Boi will like this, wink, wink) that doesn't really apply.

The XVIII century is known as "The Century of Misery" in Dominican historical annals. That horrible name for 100 years refers to the collapse of the Dominican economy after Gov Osorio imposed the "Devastations of 1605-06," basically a time of destruction of all the towns along the northern coast and in the western part of the island and forceful emigration of the people from there and surrounding rural areas to new towns established near Santo Domingo. The names of some of these new towns is a combination of the names of the towns that were destroyed, such as Bayaguana (Bayajá, which was located in the area of Fort Liberte, Haiti; and La Yaguana which was on the spot that Port-au-Prince, Haiti is now) or Monte Plata (combination of Monte Cristi, where the current Monte Cristi is located; and Puerto Plata where the current city of the same name is located).

There were also earthquakes that affected many parts of the island. The arrival of the French who literally had to bev killed off in the 1800's first by the Haitians and then by the Dominicans in order for them to stop ruling anywhere on the island, but the western part was already lost in the eyes of Dominicans since Haiti had already been established as a country with a completely different culture, language, political system, economy, etc from the Dominicans. There was a plague that also spread in that century (similar to what the world is now going through Covid, but much deadlier because people didn't know what truly caused its spread since germ and virus theories weren't created for seversl centuries later) and that affected mostly the blacks who were reduced to such levels that entire crops such as Cocoa went to waste since there were hardly any hands to harvest them and exported to Europe, and finished killing off the few Taino indians that survived the era of the Conquest. The overall population of the territory simply went downwards year after year until it hit rock bottom in the 1730's with the whopping number of 6,000 for the entire territory. There were several pirate invasions including the failed attempt of William Penn from England,his failure to capture Santo Domingo lead him to give it a last minute shot at attacking New Seville, Jamaica and there he had success, to the point that because of his invasion Jamaica became a British colony. There were also many other misfortunes after misfortunes on Spanish Hispaniola in that century.

The end result was that from very early in the century the wealth of the richest people decreased and along with that the racial hierchies typical of wealthier colonies. This lead to several things, including an increasing mixture between the races based on the elimination of the hardified social hierchies that possessing lots of money tends to create in them. This had an effect on the food.

Previously there was types of foods consumed by the rich and those consumed by the poor. Since practically everyone was poor, including the rich which in that time was poor themselves compared to the rich elsewhere, the type of food consumption became a general thing. It was at this time that things such as the African derived Mangú became a breakfast meal among "the rich" and the poor; among the whites, the blacks, and the mixed. This happened with many food items and plates which was marker of economic class became general for lack of money. The Catholic Church had to accommodate the poverty of the people, that the ladies that were "rich" (who tended to share the dresses with other women for lack of money and materials to make new dresses) gave mass before the sun came out on Sunday in order to allow the darkness cover the raggity clothes of "the rich" ladies. The level of poverty that affected everyone was to the extreme.

Even today food isn't much of a social marker smong Dominicans. Everybody, from the richest to the poorest, eat the same things. Obviously, in rich households the food is more abundant and presented in a more elegantly way while smong the poor the quantity is considerably less and the presentation isn't pretentious at all, but its the same thing. Everybody eats mangú for breakfast, eats chicharrones (cracked pork skin boiled in cooking oil until its hard and crispy), everybody eats empanadas, everybody enjoys tostones, etc. Now there's international foods too such as pizza, burgers, hot dog, etc; but, that's relatively recent and has been introduced from abroad. The division where certain foods are only for the rich and other foods are consumed only by the poor doesn't really exist in the DR. At a certain level, I think it has to be seen to be believed.
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Old 08-14-2020, 07:19 AM
 
Location: Canada
7,363 posts, read 8,411,716 times
Reputation: 5260
Interesting. Now that you mention it, That type of UTH milk and powder milk is also common in Guatemala. I honestly wouldn't be able to say which one is more popular, though my family does buy the cold milk when I am there. I think that is more common.
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