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View Poll Results: Which cuisine do you prefer?
Anglo Caribbean 27 40.91%
French Caribbean 16 24.24%
Spanish Caribbean 23 34.85%
Voters: 66. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-20-2015, 04:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Yes the finest cooks from the finest restaurants Spain were brought in to cook for the slaves. Amazing the craziness that people will concoct just to convey the impression that Africa has impact.

Any way I have seen Cubans and other Caribbean people prepare fried plantain and I have seen Nigerians. No difference.

I assume that you are another Cuban who wishes to pretend that Afro Cubans play a minor role in the culture of the island, which after all is a little piece of Spain floating off the coast of Florida.

The fact that you are dark does not mean you have any relationship whatsoever with slaves, slaves in Spanish Caribbean or elsewhere, or with Africa for that matter.
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Old 05-20-2015, 04:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
It also seems like anglo islands also have a greater usage of vegetables and vegetable dishes. I wonder if the Spanish Caribbean islands really use stuff like ackee, okra, dasheen, collard greens (those two for callaloo), etc. all that much? I've eaten at a lot of neighborhood PR and DR places and I don't really see them. Then there's the interesting whole Ital foods in Jamaica.

And yea, there are certainly many similarities among the cuisines since they're a region as a whole, but I think there are generally larger similarities in the Caribbean countries within the same language sphere than those in different ones.

Okra is quimbombó, very popular in stews. Dasheen is malanga, very popular, collard is berzas, I've never seen them but they might be present in Cuba.
There's a famous song about quimbombó or okra.


English ruled their sugar factories in a very similar way than Spain.
In fact, all the machinery in Cuba was-is (in ruins) English. The first railroad, before that in Spain, was also English. Spanish "sacarocrachy" copied everything from English sacarocracy..and later the Confederacy. Later, as slavery was "forbidden", Havana became a hugue slave market selling to the US, they were sold as slaves born in Cuba, which was not true. I've seen the records of American ships, and from elsewhere, and it was enormous, the slaves were disembarked in Havana right at the nose of the British Embassador that complained all the time.

Slaves were fed, because it was the equivalent of pouring high grade gas on a very expensive BMW. For example, with the price of a slave, 1000 pesos, you could buy three houses in Spain. In fact, white labourers would have been cheaper but they could not stand the heat...and they all stuck in cities since they were not slaves. Spain brought many Canarians to work in cane fields, but they went for tobacco and coffee plants, brought by Haitian white refugees and Canarians were rather seditious, no love lost for Spain.

There's a vast body of regulations and norms covering slave food, since it was of paramount importance for the crown, as sugar and Cuba was the main source of income for Spain. There was also the "Cuban Lobby" that financed the return of Fernando VII and they used all their money to avoid that Cuba could become a Spanish province, (no slaves in provinces).

Slaves also were very expensive because English used to sink all slave ships, and people doing all the trading were the equivalent of people doing cocaine runs, it was very risky and many died during the travel. Sugar was sold on drug stores, as if was a very expensive medicine, except in Venice.

In the town of Biran, the town of Castro, there are slave barracks in place that were used until quite recently, but with Haitians and Jamaicans. Since they were freemen, I suppose they prepared Jamaican or Haitian food, in the province of Guantanamo they eat Dumple?, I have never seen in any menu but it appears as a local speciality.


Quimbobó que resbala para la yuca seca...Okra that slips with yucca and nyam...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNIL8rFKuto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75r_-ycir2g

Last edited by mordovar; 05-20-2015 at 05:40 AM..
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Old 05-20-2015, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Somewhere on the Moon.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordovar View Post
We are talking about the Caribbean, in the Caribbean, slaves were not let loose to fend for themselves. In the Caribbean, more so in Haiti, Jamaica and Cuba that produced 99 percent of sugar of the entire world, a merchandise that was sold at incredible prices, slaves were in sugar factories, "bateys", their lifes were thoroughly regulated from dawn to dusk. They were fed, sometimes force fed, by the white cooks preparing their gruel, many of them came from the army or prison systems. The food was purchased by the administrator, and even though they used local foods such as yucca and malanga and other roots, a large part of the food was imported. Dried beef, dried cod, rice, etc. They could import about anything as protein because they were very rich, in the Caribbean.

Cuban official religion is Catholicism, although "officialy" the country is marxist and atheists. The other beliefs are syncretic to Catholicism. There are no separate Santeria churches as some Caribbean islands or Brazil.
Cuba is probably where slavery took the form that resembled the most the type of slavery practiced by the French and the British, and part of the reason is that slavery took off in Cuba after French planters fled Haiti and settled mostly in eastern Cuba. Once on the 'new' island they continued with life as they knew how and with time set an example that later expanded or was adopted by other Cubans.

But in general, in the Spanish Caribbean (including Cuba prior to the French influence) slavery was rather 'light' or not as intensive for the most part. This was also manifested in the food, with the slaves being fed the same exact food that the Spaniards ate.

Also from the very beginning (1490s and early 1500s) there is documented evidence that the Spanish didn't had much problems adopting certain cultural aspects of the Indians and later of the Africans. In a way it can be said that the influence was double way, but the Spanish influence prevailed or was simply more than either the African or Indian.

Another thing that can't be ignored is that both the British and the French took over Spanish territories, especially in the Caribbean, practically after a century those territories had been either nominally Spanish (case of most of the Lesser Antilles) or were nominally and in practice Spanish (case of the Greater Antilles including Jamaica). I think it would be foolish to think that the French and the British simply wiped out the initial Spanish influence, especially if they saw a need or an advantage, such as starch filled food that produce much needed energy.

Lastly, people shouldn't forget that the Spanish Caribbean was populated mostly by Spaniards from the Canary Islands. There are many platain dishes that were simply introduced by these immigrants. In fact, the platain tress were intially introduced from the Canaries as were many other plants such as sugar cane among others.

In the Spanish Caribbean slaves were a minority of the population, the exception to this was Cuba and only after the arrival of the French from Haiti introducing their ways of making money and agricultural development on a grand scale.

Last edited by AntonioR; 05-20-2015 at 01:43 PM..
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Old 05-20-2015, 06:53 PM
 
692 posts, read 957,431 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
Cuba is probably where slavery took the form that resembled the most the type of slavery practiced by the French and the British, and part of the reason is that slavery took off in Cuba after French planters fled Haiti and settled mostly in eastern Cuba. Once on the 'new' island they continued with life as they knew how and with time set an example that later expanded or was adopted by other Cubans.

But in general, in the Spanish Caribbean (including Cuba prior to the French influence) slavery was rather 'light' or not as intensive for the most part. This was also manifested in the food, with the slaves being fed the same exact food that the Spaniards ate.

Also from the very beginning (1490s and early 1500s) there is documented evidence that the Spanish didn't had much problems adopting certain cultural aspects of the Indians and later of the Africans. In a way it can be said that the influence was double way, but the Spanish influence prevailed or was simply more than either the African or Indian.

Another thing that can't be ignored is that both the British and the French took over Spanish territories, especially in the Caribbean, practically after a century those territories had been either nominally Spanish (case of most of the Lesser Antilles) or were nominally and in practice Spanish (case of the Greater Antilles including Jamaica). I think it would be foolish to think that the French and the British simply wiped out the initial Spanish influence, especially if they saw a need or an advantage, such as starch filled food that produce much needed energy.

Lastly, people shouldn't forget that the Spanish Caribbean was populated mostly by Spaniards from the Canary Islands. There are many platain dishes that were simply introduced by these immigrants. In fact, the platain tress were intially introduced from the Canaries as were many other plants such as sugar cane among others.

In the Spanish Caribbean slaves were a minority of the population, the exception to this was Cuba and only after the arrival of the French from Haiti introducing their ways of making money and agricultural development on a grand scale.
It's remarkable how deeply in denial some of you are.

It's one thing to make the arguable claim that Spanish influence on Spanish Caribbean cuisine is greater than African or Indigenous influence. But to say that the Spanish had any significant influence in the Lesser Antilles after those territories were ceded to the British and French is an outright lie. The Lesser Antilles were barely populated by any Spaniards, even Trinidad has far more French influence than Spanish and that's arguably the most Hispanicised of the Lesser Antilles. Nor does it explain the widespread consumption of plantain, rice etc in Africa and the almost absent consumption of these food items in Spain by comparison.

Also, to say that Plantain came from the Canaries is ridiculous. There's a reason why bananas are called "guineos" in DR...
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Old 05-20-2015, 09:37 PM
 
Location: Canada
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Is ceviche a common dish in the DR?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lexdiamondz1902 View Post
. There's a reason why bananas are called "guineos" in DR...
Bananas are called "Guineos" in many parts of mainland Latin America as well.
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Old 05-21-2015, 01:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordovar View Post
The fact that you are dark does not mean you have any relationship whatsoever with slaves, slaves in Spanish Caribbean or elsewhere, or with Africa for that matter.

So now you are going to tell me what I have or don't have in common with Africans. Sorry I have been to Africa and know loads of Africans, especially Nigerians. I also know Cuban blacks. I live in NYC so I am familiar with what Puerto Ricans and Dominicans eat. I know that a fried plantain that I get in a Dominican restaurant is 100% the SAME as the fried plantain that I grew up eating in Guyana, and is 100% the same as the fried plantains that I have eaten in the homes of Nigerians.

Contrary to what some might peddle the foods of the Caribbean embrace the cultures of the peoples who arrived in the Caribbean. That includes AFRICA.

Will we soon to told that the Afro Cuban rhythms originated in the Canaries? That might be next at this rate.
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Old 05-21-2015, 01:30 AM
 
Location: Somewhere on the Moon.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lexdiamondz1902 View Post
It's remarkable how deeply in denial some of you are.
We simply know what we are talking about, that's all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lexdiamondz1902
It's one thing to make the arguable claim that Spanish influence on Spanish Caribbean cuisine is greater than African or Indigenous influence. But to say that the Spanish had any significant influence in the Lesser Antilles after those territories were ceded to the British and French is an outright lie. The Lesser Antilles were barely populated by any Spaniards, even Trinidad has far more French influence than Spanish and that's arguably the most Hispanicised of the Lesser Antilles.
If you carefully read what I said, you will notice that I never claimed that the initial Spanish in the Lesser Antilles was great. I'm very much aware most of those islands were refered to as islas inútiles (worthless islands) by the Spanish, mostly because they already had the larger islands from which they got more out of them. But the Lesser Antilles were taken away from the Spanish mostly by the British and the French, including Jamaica which already had a settled Spanish population at the time William Penn took over and the French part of Santo Domingo. It's naïve, in my opinion, to think that the British and the French didn't applied whatever they found useful of the Spanish that lived in the main islands, especially in Jamaica and Trinidad, and then applied them to the rest of their islands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lexdiamond1902
Nor does it explain the widespread consumption of plantain, rice etc in Africa and the almost absent consumption of these food items in Spain by comparison.
That's what you say, but 93% of Spaniards habitually eat rice.

The articles are in Spanish, but even those that don't know Spanish can pick up where it refers to rice consumption (arroz).

Estudio: ¿qué y cuánto comen los españoles?

Pollo o pavo, arroz blanco y macarrones, lo mas consumido por los españoles ? Salud ? Noticias, última hora, vídeos y fotos de Salud en lainformacion.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by lexdiamond1902
Also, to say that Plantain came from the Canaries is ridiculous. There's a reason why bananas are called "guineos" in DR...
This is plain ignorance from your part.

The plantain was first introduced in Santo Domingo (and by consequence in America because that island was the first place in this hemisphere to be planted with plantain plants among other flora from the "Old World") in 1516 by Spanish Fray Tomas de Berlanga. Plus, the very first plantains to cross the Atlantic were actually taken from the Canary Islands and this means that the Spaniards from those islands must had used plantains in their cuisine. The Canary Islands are off the coast of Africa, so maybe the Spaniards from there adopted some African plantain-based food. But in Spanish America and in the Spanish Caribbean plantains and many plantain-based foods are associated with the Spaniards because they were who introduced most of that to these islands, not the Africans.

Guineo isn't a word used much in mainland Spain, but it is in the Canary Islands. Banana (which is an African word) is hardly used in mainland Spain, but platano is and also in the Canary Islands. Despite the fact that banana is the African name, Dominicans call them Guineo as the Canary Islanders do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLuis View Post
Is ceviche a common dish in the DR?
Ceviche is not known in DR, at least not as a traditional Dominican dish. People that know of ceviche often link it to Peru. Seafood isn't really a big part of Dominican cuisine. Take the Asopao as an example, which is a heavy rice stew that includes chicken or cow meat (often times both.) The original Spanish dish from which the Asopao derived from is the Arroz Caldoso, which is a rice based stew but instead includes seafood. The reason for this is simple, in colonial times and even all the way to the beginning of the 20th century, the Spanish/Dominican population lived inland away from the coast. Many areas of the interior are elevated and have a cooler and less humid tropical and subtropical climate compared to the sticky high humidity and often uncomfortable heat along the shore. Away from sources of sea life meant that many dishes needed to be tweaked, because the population was not going to give up some of the Spanish dishes that include seafood simply because there was no practical way of getting fresh fish deep into the interior of the island.

A similar situation occurred in Cuba and in Puerto Rico.

Arroz Cardoso from Spain:

Arroz caldoso con almejas

And its Dominican/Spanish Caribbean "offspring" Asopao:

Mazola Receta - Asopao de Pollo

Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanLuis
Bananas are called "Guineos" in many parts of mainland Latin America as well.
The word banana is hardly used in Spain, they only use platano (platains) and in the Canary Islands they also use guineo. Those are the names Dominicans know them as, not banana which is the African word.

Last edited by AntonioR; 05-21-2015 at 01:55 AM..
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Old 05-21-2015, 01:43 AM
 
8,572 posts, read 8,538,918 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lexdiamondz1902 View Post
It's remarkable how deeply in denial some of you are.

It's one thing to make the arguable claim that Spanish influence on Spanish Caribbean cuisine is greater than African or Indigenous influence. But to say that the Spanish had any significant influence in the Lesser Antilles after those territories were ceded to the British and French is an outright lie. The Lesser Antilles were barely populated by any Spaniards, even Trinidad has far more French influence than Spanish and that's arguably the most Hispanicised of the Lesser Antilles. Nor does it explain the widespread consumption of plantain, rice etc in Africa and the almost absent consumption of these food items in Spain by comparison.

Also, to say that Plantain came from the Canaries is ridiculous. There's a reason why bananas are called "guineos" in DR...

The Lesser Antilles were populated by the Carib Indians. Lacking gold and having aggressive populations the Spanish stayed away. They barely settled in Trinidad, and in fact that "Latin" influence comes from Venezuelan immigrants who began arriving in the 19th C.

Jamaica had an almost nonexistent population when it was conquered by the British. The Taino population had either died off, or were captured for use as slaves in the more densely settled islands. The slave population was small and formed the nucleus of the Maroon populations, generally seen as having retained the most aspects of African culture, due to their isolation. Latin America influences in Jamaican cooking (escovitch fish) comes from migrants returning from stints in Panama, Cuba and Costa Rica.

The only impact of Spanish colonial rule in Trinidad and Jamaica is in place names. I suggest similarly minimal impacts in Haiti. There are NO impacts of Spanish colonial rule in the Lesser Antilles because there was never Spanish colonial rule.

So to the extent that there is cultural over lap between the Hispanic and non Hispanic population, it reflects the fact that these societies were all impacted at some point by the importation of enslaved peoples from Africa and by the plantation system.

BTW funche from Puerto Rico is the same as fungi in Antigua and coo coo in Barbados, and it is known virtually every where else with different names.
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Old 05-21-2015, 01:46 AM
 
Location: Morgantown, WV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
That's what you say, but 93% of Spaniards habitually eat rice.
I'm going to have to see some evidence on this. Otherwise, from personal experience, I strongly disagree.

I lived in Spain for three months with family in Caceres, Extremadura. In all that time I can't recall a single rice based dish. My brother in law went to Spain last year (he's a chef in training), he toured pretty much the whole country and rice wasn't on the menu very much outside of Andalucia (even there it's not an everyday thing) and the east coast.

My significant other's family is Cuban, they eat rice a lot. A whole lot. They also eat a lot of other foods that aren't common in Spain (rice and beans, plantains, yucca(and all those other roots), guava deserts,etc.). Latin Caribbean food and Spanish food are quite different for the most part. Spain's food as a whole is pretty hard to define because it differs so much by region but none of them really mirror Latino food to a T.
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Old 05-21-2015, 01:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wvtraveler View Post
I'm going to have to see some evidence on this. Otherwise, from personal experience, I strongly disagree.

I lived in Spain for three months with family in Caceres, Extremadura. In all that time I can't recall a single rice based dish. My brother in law went to Spain last year (he's a chef in training), he toured pretty much the whole country and rice wasn't on the menu very much outside of Andalucia (even there it's not an everyday thing) and the east coast.

My significant other's family is Cuban, they eat rice a lot. A whole lot. They also eat a lot of other foods that aren't common in Spain. Latin Caribbean food and Spanish food are quite different for the most part. Spain's food as a whole is pretty hard to define because it differs so much by region but none of them really mirror Latino food to a T.

The consistency of the rice dish from Spain is very different from the consistency seen virtually every where in the Caribbean. This isn't to say that those Spanish dishes aren't present. Of course they exist, but then so do the Afro Caribbean creole dishes.

In these countries any thing "African" or "black" is despised, so these guys have a whole industry trivializing these influences. They will simultaneously turn around and paint their societies as model and without an ounce of racism, perfect paradises for people with very visible African ancestry.
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