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Once again, my issue is that certain part of the Spanish speaking world complaining that WE use that term. Why is this not getting through?
Paco has made countless posts under the false assumption that it is Americansgoing to Argentina or Colombia and lecturing the populace on how ignorant they are because of their universally-accepted denonym. It is the opposite. An unsuspecting Venezuelan has never been approached by an American on how ignorant they are for considering themselves "Americanos". Sorry Paco, you have it backwards.
What is so great about the article is that the way the author is "ambushed" by the Colombian girl is exactly how this plays out in real life. You, the American, are minding your own business, when a politically-minded Latin American decides to lecture on the truth how stupid and dubious you reallyare. What Paco is missing is that it is this segment of the Latin American population who feel the need to set the "Americans" in their place, however it is done.
After all, these crusaders are nowhere to be found when it comes to other potential cases of name-stealing. The Netherlands refers to an entire region including Belgium, Luxembourg, and French Flanders, yet these same Colombians never seem to have an issue with the Dutch "stealing" the name of the whole region for themselves.
Paco has made countless posts under the false assumption that it is Americansgoing to Argentina or Colombia and lecturing the populace on how ignorant they are because of their universally-accepted denonym. It is the opposite. An unsuspecting Venezuelan has never been approached by an American on how ignorant they are for considering themselves "Americanos". Sorry Paco, you have it backwards.
What is so great about the article is that the way the author is "ambushed" by the Colombian girl is exactly how this plays out in real life. You, the American, are minding your own business, when a politically-minded Latin American decides to lecture on the truth how stupid and dubious you reallyare. What Paco is missing is that it is this segment of the Latin American population who feel the need to set the "Americans" in their place, however it is done.
After all, these crusaders are nowhere to be found when it comes to other potential cases of name-stealing. The Netherlands refers to an entire region including Belgium, Luxembourg, and French Flanders, yet these same Colombians never seem to have an issue with the Dutch "stealing" the name of the whole region for themselves.
A most excellent response! While I never found anyone as obnoxious as the girl in the article, I have run across those types from South America as well. Never did I tell them that they cannot call themselves Americans. They can use whatever term they like as far as I care.
Great point about the Netherlands too. That's an entire region but it officially the name of one country in that region. Never heard a Belgian or Luxembourgian complain about that.
Paco has made countless posts under the false assumption that it is Americansgoing to Argentina or Colombia and lecturing the populace on how ignorant they are because of their universally-accepted denonym. It is the opposite. An unsuspecting Venezuelan has never been approached by an American on how ignorant they are for considering themselves "Americanos". Sorry Paco, you have it backwards.
What is so great about the article is that the way the author is "ambushed" by the Colombian girl is exactly how this plays out in real life. You, the American, are minding your own business, when a politically-minded Latin American decides to lecture on the truth how stupid and dubious you reallyare. What Paco is missing is that it is this segment of the Latin American population who feel the need to set the "Americans" in their place, however it is done.
After all, these crusaders are nowhere to be found when it comes to other potential cases of name-stealing. The Netherlands refers to an entire region including Belgium, Luxembourg, and French Flanders, yet these same Colombians never seem to have an issue with the Dutch "stealing" the name of the whole region for themselves.
No, brother. It isn't a political-minded behaviour. It's the history of your own country, and the imperalistic reasons behind the use of "america" and "americans" terms
What is your source? Surely, you know that it is required to state your source on this board.
I listed my source as John Pickering, "A Vocabulary, or Collection of Words and Phrases Which Have Been Supposed to be Peculiar to the United States of America"
This 200 year old source points out that associating America with the USA was already commonplace by 1816.
You'll note that they specifically said USA , and not British North America
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj
Paco has made countless posts under the false assumption that it is Americansgoing to Argentina or Colombia and lecturing the populace on how ignorant they are because of their universally-accepted denonym. It is the opposite. An unsuspecting Venezuelan has never been approached by an American on how ignorant they are for considering themselves "Americanos". Sorry Paco, you have it backwards.
I don't ever remember saying that. It doesn't make any sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marlaver
No, brother. It isn't a political-minded behaviour. It's the history of your own country, and the imperalistic reasons behind the use of "america" and "americans" terms
I actually doubt that most people were thinking of imperialism in early 1800's. In 1800 the 11 year old country USA had a population of 5.3 million with nearly a million slaves. The imperial age of USA was still decades away. I think it was a simple matter that the more colorful names for the USA (like Columbia or Freedonia) were rejected and 'American' was the simplest demonym since people didn't call themselves Virginians, Georgians, Pennsylvanians, anymore. I also very much doubt that people even considered themselves as co-opting a word that belonged to others.
AS AN ASIDE: For all you people are bashing me, I would like you to note that I am trying to be balanced. I don't think it was founded in imperialist thinking. Other than the basic fact that white people in general thought they were God's chosen race in 1800.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentoo
If it were getting through, you wouldn't have had to add this Let me explain this to you yet again;
Ok. As a citizen of this hemisphere I only ask that you not treat Spanish speaking people who raise this point with contempt. The name "American" rightly belongs to the hemisphere.
Polite answer:
"It may not be correct that both continents are America, but it has been accepted in the English speaking world for at least 200 years to refer to citizens of the USA as Americans. I choose to stay with tradition."
Impolite answer:
I DO NOT HAVE AN ISSUE WITH WHAT YOU CALL YOURSELF. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO TELL ME WHAT I WANT TO CALL MYSELF!
The reason that it is impolite, is it has been the subject of intellectual debate for centuries. It is not just said by a liberal to irritate you.
Even if the person is being impolite, it doesn't hurt to respond with a polite answer.
Last edited by PacoMartin; 06-25-2014 at 01:24 PM..
I listed my source as John Pickering, "A Vocabulary, or Collection of Words and Phrases Which Have Been Supposed to be Peculiar to the United States of America"
This 200 year old source points out that associating America with the USA was already commonplace by 1816.
You'll note that they specifically said USA , and not British North America
I don't ever remember saying that. It doesn't make any sense.
I actually doubt that most people were thinking of imperialism in early 1800's. In 1800 the 11 year old country USA had a population of 5.3 million with nearly a million slaves. The imperial age of USA was still decades away. I think it was a simple matter that the more colorful names for the USA (like Columbia or Freedonia) were rejected and 'American' was the simplest demonym since people didn't call themselves Virginians, Georgians, Pennsylvanians, anymore. I also very much doubt that people even considered themselves as co-opting a word that belonged to others.
AS AN ASIDE: For all you people are bashing me, I would like you to note that I am trying to be balanced. I don't think it was founded in imperialist thinking. Other than the basic fact that white people in general thought they were God's chosen race in 1800.
Ok. As a citizen of this hemisphere I only ask that you not treat Spanish speaking people who raise this point with contempt. The name "American" rightly belongs to the hemisphere.
Polite answer:
"It may not be correct that both continents are America, but it has been accepted in the English speaking world for at least 200 years to refer to citizens of the USA as Americans. I choose to stay with tradition."
Impolite answer:
I DO NOT HAVE AN ISSUE WITH WHAT YOU CALL YOURSELF. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO TELL ME WHAT I WANT TO CALL MYSELF!
The reason that it is impolite, is it has been the subject of intellectual debate for centuries. It is not just said by a liberal to irritate you.
Even if the person is being impolite, it doesn't hurt to respond with a polite answer.
No, brother. It isn't a political-minded behaviour. It's the history of your own country, and the imperalistic reasons behind the use of "america" and "americans" terms
No, it is indeed something political. How many of the Americans people like the woman in the OP, or you for that matter, whom you encounter have anything to do with this "imperialism" you harp on endlessly?
If you choose to punish the individual for the behavior of their country then you are simply an ignorant and prejudiced, to say nothing of petty, person.
You aren't making very subtle points. I get it, I get it. Most of the world means "from the US" when they say American. South Americans have no right to tell you otherwise!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentoo
The only thing I am learning in this thread is that South Americans live in there own little world.
Fine. The wall is through talking.
If you think that Gentoo is diplomatic in saying "that South Americans live in there own little world" please give him a thumbs up.
If you think that kind of comment is vulgar and unnecessary, and that South Americans deserve more respect than that, give me a thumbs up.
Gentoo and I both agree that the adoption of the word American by citizens of the USA to specifically to themselves happened very early in the history of our country.
Even the Oxford dictionary agrees with that point. The Oxford dictionary says that English speakers usually put an adjective in front (Central, Southern, Latin) of American when they mean the other kind.
Personally, I don't think that calling ourselves Americans was imperialistic. I think it was adopted way to early in our history for us to have well formed imperialistic ambitions.
I listed my source as John Pickering, "A Vocabulary, or Collection of Words and Phrases Which Have Been Supposed to be Peculiar to the United States of America"
This 200 year old source points out that associating America with the USA was already commonplace by 1816.
You'll note that they specifically said USA , and not British North America.
So John Pickering was obviously a United States resident, which is why he knew so much about United States linguistics. He apparently was not aware that people in the countries of North and South America like to refer to themselves Americans also. If they did not refer to themselves as Americans so much back then (200 years ago), well...let's just say that a lot has changed since 1816. They obviously consider themselves Americans now as there are numerous boards on the internet regarding this same issue.
Here is a quote by Thomas Jefferson:
In 1813, Thomas Jefferson wrote in a letter: "The new circumstances under which we are placed call for new words, new phrases, and for the transfer of old words to new objects."--The History of English/Late Modern English (c.1800-Present)
Last edited by MissSoBelle; 06-25-2014 at 03:33 PM..
So John Pickering was obviously a United States resident, which is why he knew so much about United States linguistics. He apparently was not aware that people in the countries of North and South America like to refer to themselves Americans also. If they did not refer to themselves as Americans so much back then (200 years ago), well...let's just say that a lot has changed since 1816.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Free Dictionary
Pickering, John (?1776–1846) linguist, philologist, attorney; born in Salem, Mass. He graduated from Harvard (1796) and spent several years in Europe with the United States Diplomatic Corps. After returning to Masssachusetts, he practiced law and served in the state senate. He wrote many books and articles on language, including the first collection of American word usages (1816). He was also a leading authority on the languages of North American Indians. Pickering, John definition of Pickering, John in the Free Online Encyclopedia.
He certainly knew that America originally referred to the entire hemisphere. I think that is why he was clarifying it in his book (which was probably more aimed at Englishman who were curious about what we know call American English, as opposed to British English).
The general term American is now commonly understood (at least in all places where the English language is spoken,) to mean an inhabitant of the United States ; and is so employed, except where unusual precision of language is required. English writers in speaking of us always say, the Americans, the American government, the American ambassador, etc. The French, indeed, ... extend the appellation Americans to the inhabitants of the West Indies. Their writers, accordingly, sometimes distinguish us by the name of Anglo-Americans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissSoBelle
I've always thought that people from the United States are arrogant in labeling only themselves as Americans. Saying, "I'm from America" doesn't tell me where someone is from. North America, South America...where are you from? Argentina? Canada? It's always something that has bugged me, and I'm from the United States. When I traveled abroad, I would say that I was from the United States. People clearly knew where I was from then.
We are both arguing roughly the same side. Personally I wouldn't say it is arrogant to use the word American, because it is such a long established tradition. It's just a question of sensitivity.
It is however, arrogant to say "South Americans live in their own little world." That is a truly arrogant statement.
I do however disagree that it is "imperialistic". From the description above, it was already well established custom by 1816. There were only two independent countries in the Western Hemisphere in 1816 (USA and Haiti).
Since this book is the first one ever written about American English (as opposed to English in general) it is hard to say how old the use of some words are.
We are both arguing roughly the same side. Personally I wouldn't say it is arrogant to use the word American, because it is such a long established tradition.
He is not saying he finds South American calling themselves arrogant, just when those people tell him he shouldn't be calling himself "American"
Quote:
Originally Posted by PacoMartin
It is however, arrogant to say "South Americans live in their own little world." That is a truly arrogant statement.
Very arrogant and offensive. Either he is very annoyed with those Colombian females and his anger is speaking for him or he indeed thinks his culture is superior than others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentoo
If it were getting through, you wouldn't have had to add this Let me explain this to you yet again; I DO NOT HAVE AN ISSUE WITH WHAT THEY CALL THEMSELVES. IT'S WHAT THEY SUGGEST WE CALL OURSELVES IN OUR OWN LANGUAGE THAT I TAKE EXCEPTION TO. CLEAR NOW?
You are getting through but for someone who is complaining about arrogance you don't sound very pleasant yourself.
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Americans
