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Against the oligarchy! I like Argentina a lot sure they borrowed money from people they shouldn't have but it was out of desperation and also many people are moving to Argentina their health care seems pretty good priced and one doesn't need to be extremely rich to enjoy the country. I really don't mind Marxism because people should have rights and be united and they have rights which we still don't have in the US.
Your ingorance supercedes you....
Most middle and upper class Argentines actually use private hospitals are you aware of that? The gov't funded hospitals and clinics here are poor at best, filthy, unorganized, beaurocratic and dilapidated.
Only the very bottom classes, the extremely poor and those who can't afford private health care use them. You need to read some of my previous comments about my experiences, and those of my brother in law regarding Argentinas gov't funded health care.
My wife and I we pay "through the nose" for the private hospital that we use, but the quality of health care is good.....and that's because it's not funded by or subsidized by the state, it's a private co-op. The gov't subsidized healthcare here is "crap" period....and most argentines will tell you.
Of course a snobby north american such as yourself would say you don't have to be very rich to live here. Well, let me tell you, if your an average middle class argentine it's difficult. I get barely 9 pesos to a dollar here, even though it's actually about 14 pesos to the dollar, but the gov't lies about the real economic numbers. Inflation is near 40%, life IS VERY precarious and DIFFICULT for the average argentine right now!! A bag of tomatoes is like 50 pesos, an empanada that used to be 1.25 8 years ago is now anywhere from 12 - 14 pesos per empanada in some places. NO ONE can get financing to buy a home, renting seem to be the only option here and the landlords regulary abuse and treat renters badly. The realtors steal and lie, are completely dishonest. Inflation is SERIOUSLY outpacing the net take home of the average Argentine even with the raises. Besides violence, theft, burglaries, muggings...it's soaring and getting worse. You can't even leave the country without filling a bunch of forms for the AFIP with a bunch of questions about why your leaving, how much you make etc etc....it's TOTALLY instrusive and non-democratic!
Cars are expensive, a luxury here for most and the gov't charges outlandish fees and taxes to own one. Argentina has one of the highest tax yields with lowest distribution of public services of any other western country, and it shows. They like to prosecute tax evaders and have intrusive and outlandish tax code and demands, but they don't give it back and it doesn't translate into services and improvements for the people.
The gov't is basically a democratically elected ( and even that is debatable ) criminal gang, a mafia an oligarchy of thugs...a one party system in reality. They regularly embezzle state funds and make ilegal kickbacks off of gov't contracts and send that m,oney over seas in clandestine bank accounts in the Canary Islands and Switzerland...to the tune of 100's of millions of dollars. There's evidence many in the gov't here are involved in drug trafficking and money laundering.
You don't know what it's like to live under "Marxism" you have no idea, not even close. You read about it in a book and because some commentator on some cable news network tells you it's good for you, you believe it. Your as ignorant and as much a "moonbat" as the rest of them. You want an idea of what Marxism is like, go live in Myanmar or North Korea..
Eric, how much better is Chile doing right now? I've read stuff about it being much better run than ARG
it's a VERY seismic country....I experienced 2 tremors out of 3 while I was there only one year.
When I lived in Chile it is and was quite different from Argentina.. Chile does, however, have a very large income in-equality gap, even larger in some ways than Argentina. In my opinion, Chile still aspires to the old world mediterranean/Iberian "class order" and it's very difficult to move out of the class you were born in. Also, Chileans are constantly worried about having andean features or being seen or associated with any of that, it's weird. I've heard stories of Chileans that fear being discriminated against because they might have an ameri-indian aspect to their surname, so they'll try to get part of their last names legally changed to a name that doesn't sound so ethnic. It's strange, to them, having more "aboriginal/indian type features means, you won't get the good jobs or advancements....or at least, this seems to be what they perceive. I mean there's grinding poverty everywhere in Chile, in some ways easier to find than in Argentina. Yet it also has very modern, very americanized westernized spots as well....it's an interesting eclectic mix.....I like Chile, in many ways, more so than Argentina, but Argentina is cool too.
However, despite that inequality, it's also still very difficult for females to advance in Chile and sexism and sexual harrassment is rampant in the Chilean workplace. Many women are hired based on "looks" and "beauty" and are often overlooked in favor of their male counterparts in terms of wage advancements and promotions. I mean, it's changed and is changing a little, but it's been VERY slow to catch on in Chile compared to Argentina at least. Chilean men, at least ones that I knew were VERY immature, chauvenistic and macho, yet at the same time incredibly insecure....it's just part of their culture. True mamas boys in many ways...I knew several of them well into their mid to late 40's still living with their parents and not interested in or showing any motivation to move on or marry, nothing...it's weird. Actually the women marry very young in Chile, many times to much older men....they just take that long to grow up....it's weird, I don't know how else to describe it.
In spite of all this, Chile has a very well organized and run gov't, low corruption and chileans are more orderly, more organized in many ways than the argentines. Also, in Chile I noticed their were more people driving newer cars there than in Argentina, much more so, and also in the supermarkets you see a larger variety of foreign goods, especially from the US, that you DON'T see virtually at ALL in Argentina... Argentines are more helter-skelter, loud, the life of the party, Chileans over all are a bit more reserved ( though not always ) and more orderly overall...more so than Arg and other latin american countries I've visited.
So it's different, Chile is doing fairly well economically. It also has a powerful, advanced and very WELL funded military, one of the largest and most modern in all of latin-america. Also, in spite of the military dictatorship under Pinochet, you don't see quite as much of the disdain for the military in Chile as you do in Argentina, it's there but not nearly as noticeable, they tend to be somewhat proud of their military. I'd say in some ways, Chile is still a very conservative nation in many ways, not in others, but more so than Argentina. Anyways they'd whoop Argentina in a heartbeat in a full scale military conflict and the countries don't really have the greatest relations, they do on TV but they don't behind the scenes. The argentines almost went to war with Chile a few times but the Pope stepped in. Back then the two countries were better matched militarily. Nowdays Argentina would get it's hide tanned pretty quick by the Chileans and even though Arg claims that the Chileans like to change border markers, they won't mess with Chile, they know better.
Last edited by EricOldTime; 12-10-2014 at 03:25 PM..
This segment of the population they are born and bred to be dependent, not independent...it's shameful and it's true. They'll always need, and demand that the socialist gov'ts here take care of them. And, the perronistas use them, pander to them promising more social programs, subsdidies, subsidised housing, money, health care...and all for nothing more than power and votes. It's because of this relationship that "they stay and maintain power in this country" and I fon't know if the spell can ever be broken.
I would say Argentina is a model for the New World Order global dictatorship that a tiny global elite is bringing in...this is exactly what they want the whole world to look like, although I suspect their ultimate plans are even worse than what currently exists in Argentina.
Last edited by mysticaltyger; 12-13-2014 at 06:01 AM..
Chile does, however, have a very large income in-equality gap, even larger in some ways than Argentina.
Hi there Eric! Thought I'd keep this discussion alive, as it's quite interesting!
Regarding the income gap, it doesn't say much as the lowest in Chile is still a whole lot better than what I saw in argentina. In fact I was in Chile in the 90's and remembering back I'd still say they were better off then than Argentina is today. Mean i.e, Chile anno 1990> Argentina anno 2015.
I was able to compare the two countries much better last summer. I didn't see a single person in Santiago sitting on the street asking for money. Mind you I saw a lot of the city. The worst I saw was in argentina, there I saw entire families begging on the streets. (ok, sure there is random artist or salesman on the streets in Santiago at the red lights, but not that much)
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricOldTime
In my opinion, Chile still aspires to the old world mediterranean/Iberian "class order" and it's very difficult to move out of the class you were born in. Also, Chileans are constantly worried about having andean features or being seen or associated with any of that, it's weird. I've heard stories of Chileans that fear being discriminated against because they might have an ameri-indian aspect to their surname, so they'll try to get part of their last names legally changed to a name that doesn't sound so ethnic. It's strange, to them, having more "aboriginal/indian type features means, you won't get the good jobs or advancements....or at least, this seems to be what they perceive.
Well it's not really all THAT strange... take our own native people, the samish, they too get a bit discriminated in our society here in Sweden. Not to mention the aboriginals? They too suffer from discrimination. I truly believe that this is true even in the U.S. The natives lives, just like in Chile with special perks and in reservoirs. The same goes btw for the mapuche Argentinians in the patagonian tundra.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricOldTime
I mean there's grinding poverty everywhere in Chile, in some ways easier to find than in Argentina. Yet it also has very modern, very americanized westernized spots as well....it's an interesting eclectic mix.....I like Chile, in many ways, more so than Argentina, but Argentina is cool too.
I saw NO grinding poverty at all in Chile (I had a rental car, mind you I used it extensively). There ARE families living in misery for sure in Chile but I was not able to see it. Not even when driving through the southern fringe like, oh wait... ah, cerro niava or the hills of valparaiso. In fact the shabby places looked more like bohemian left-wing hippe dens like ventimiglia italy, or kristania, copenhagen, denmark. Nobody ever asked me for change like in argentina. Heck, I had that happening more in eastern europe (warsaw, poland etc) than in Argentina. However, in Buenos Aires and Santiago there is a lot of immigration from bolivia, peru, colombia, etc settling in and creating criminal bands. This is of course something to consider.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricOldTime
However, despite that inequality, it's also still very difficult for females to advance in Chile and sexism and sexual harrassment is rampant in the Chilean workplace. Many women are hired based on "looks" and "beauty" and are often overlooked in favor of their male counterparts in terms of wage advancements and promotions. I mean, it's changed and is changing a little, but it's been VERY slow to catch on in Chile compared to Argentina at least. Chilean men, at least ones that I knew were VERY immature, chauvenistic and macho, yet at the same time incredibly insecure....it's just part of their culture. True mamas boys in many ways...I knew several of them well into their mid to late 40's still living with their parents and not interested in or showing any motivation to move on or marry, nothing...it's weird. Actually the women marry very young in Chile, many times to much older men....they just take that long to grow up....it's weird, I don't know how else to describe it.
I have little experience with chileans, you seem to know better but in our office at least, there was no such thing as sexual harrasment. There might be in other fields but I was not able to pick anything up. There were some nice looking girls in the building but some not so nice. I will assume that you are at least partally correct on the importance of looks. You are also saying that things are "changing", does that mean you still live in Chile? or go there often?
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricOldTime
In spite of all this, Chile has a very well organized and run gov't, low corruption and chileans are more orderly, more organized in many ways than the argentines. Also, in Chile I noticed their were more people driving newer cars there than in Argentina, much more so, and also in the supermarkets you see a larger variety of foreign goods, especially from the US, that you DON'T see virtually at ALL in Argentina... Argentines are more helter-skelter, loud, the life of the party, Chileans over all are a bit more reserved ( though not always ) and more orderly overall...more so than Arg and other latin american countries I've visited.
Yes, my understanding is that everything seems to work There is a sence of an organized mindset that I didn't see even in some western european countries like spain and france. People don't talk much on the streets and when they do, they don't do it loudly. They respect the traffic signs and traffic lights just like here in Sweden. I think this, more than anything else, was a big eye opener... even more so than the highly developed infrastructure. Regarding the cars, yeah, there is a BIG difference, it was strange to see 50-year old trucks on the streets of Buenos Aires. Same with cars, they still make older models and selling them as new ones.
A funny thing one chilean colleague told me was that french cars manufactured in argetina were not really sold in Chile, that the chileans prefered paying more and importing them from france. I'd say it's all the FTA's Chile has, with a higher nominal gdp per capita that enable Chileans buying a new car every few years. That is also why many chileans always wear branded clothes/accessories and sunglasses. (ray-ban, MK, etc) The stores in Chile had all names and brands that I recognize from Sweden. In argentina the situation was the opposite, everything was domestic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricOldTime
So it's different, Chile is doing fairly well economically. It also has a powerful, advanced and very WELL funded military, one of the largest and most modern in all of latin-america. Also, in spite of the military dictatorship under Pinochet, you don't see quite as much of the disdain for the military in Chile as you do in Argentina, it's there but not nearly as noticeable, they tend to be somewhat proud of their military. I'd say in some ways, Chile is still a very conservative nation in many ways, not in others, but more so than Argentina. Anyways they'd whoop Argentina in a heartbeat in a full scale military conflict and the countries don't really have the greatest relations, they do on TV but they don't behind the scenes. The argentines almost went to war with Chile a few times but the Pope stepped in. Back then the two countries were better matched militarily. Nowdays Argentina would get it's hide tanned pretty quick by the Chileans and even though Arg claims that the Chileans like to change border markers, they won't mess with Chile, they know better.
I think Chile was the 5th fastest growing country in the world, along China, Peru, etc. They were no1 in capital growth during a sustained period of 25-30 years. They don't need tourist visa for the EU, Canada, the U.S, etc. They got included into the OECD and are to transition into the developed ranks this decade. So yeah, to quote you "Chile is doing fairly well economically".
Chile's military is bigger than Peru's, Argentina's and Bolivias put together. In fact the Airforce is bigger than Brazil's as of january 2015. So yeah, it's military is the biggest in the region. (Venezuela got some russian flying tin, but imo doesn't compete with Chile's.) And yes, you talk about Argentina... they do need to upgrade their military strength, specially their A4's need to go. However they have other more important matters at hand that needs attention first.
Hi there Eric! Thought I'd keep this discussion alive, as it's quite interesting!
Regarding the income gap, it doesn't say much as the lowest in Chile is still a whole lot better than what I saw in argentina. In fact I was in Chile in the 90's and remembering back I'd still say they were better off then than Argentina is today. Mean i.e, Chile anno 1990> Argentina anno 2015.
Regarding the cars, yeah, there is a BIG difference, it was strange to see 50-year old trucks on the streets of Buenos Aires. Same with cars, they still make older models and selling them as new ones.
The most reliable data prove your statements are biased and wrong.
Last world bank data regarding comparative poverty show this (poor class, in red; vulnerable class, in yellow; middle class, in green; upper class, in blue):
It's true that Argentina has more grinding than Chile, but, in the other hand, has less middle to low class, and the biggest and most consolidated middle class in latinamerica along with Uruguay. So that "Chile anno 1990> Argentina anno 2015" thing is plain bull**** and hardly serious statement
Regarding the cars, it's, againt, another overstatement that doesn't corresponds to reality.
Cars sold in 2014:
Argentina: 625.742. (in a very bad year)
Chile: 303.430.
2013 and 2012:
Yeah, overall Chile has a better quality in his vehicle fleet, but you picture it as if Chile were the French Riviera and Argentina Buthan, when the reality couldn't be more different. The average age of the argentine vehicle is 10 years, whereas the chilean averages 8 years.
Also, I said Santiago looked better in the 90's than Buenos Aires does today. Or at least at the same level. I will stick to it, because that is how I saw it.
Lastly, there IS NO WAY the average age of the vehicles in Chile are only two years newer than the Argentinian. I saw something completely different. Also why did you post how many cars were sold in each country?
Argentina is simply a typical Latin American country. That's why it's better to compare them to Mexico, Peru, Brazil and the rest of those countries, not to Europe!
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