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In fact, neither the current/former English or French West Indies are that representative of the Caribbean at all. Two-thirds of the Caribbean population is Spanish-speaking lol.
Only three countries speaking Spanish and in fact the very image that the world has of the Caribbean is very heavily influenced by that of the very folks who you damn as self hating.......Jamaicans and Trinidadians!
Only three countries speaking Spanish and in fact the very image that the world has of the Caribbean is very heavily influenced by that of the very folks who you damn as self hating.......Jamaicans and Trinidadians!
To English speaking people, yes. However to the rest of the world, no. Literally the only Anglophone Caribbean country of any relevance to anyone is Jamaica.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny
1. the educational system of a country is important in that it determines people's pool of knowledge. If all the information that is provided to them is about the fact that France is the center of the world, then that is how they will see the world. They see the world through a French perspective.
2. If the French Caribbean has a stronger cultural identity than that of the Anglophone then why are they avid consumers of music and cultural identity from Dominica, Trinidad, and Jamaica? Obviously there is some thing about this culture from their English speaking neighbors that they admire.
3. The USA isn't using their control over systems of governance to force any one to be American. People in the Anglophone Caribbean are free to consume or not to consume this culture as they wish. In St K most of the passing cars were playing local music (SK jam band) dance hall, or soca from elsewhere in the Caribbean. Ditto the radio stations.
90% of the conversations were in local St Kitts dialect, even among the more educated population, when not speaking in a formal context. Why don't you listen to how the Prime Minister of St Kitts speaks when he adapts a conversational tone, as against a formal tone? He speaks on a continuum between an acrilect, mesolect, and basilect, which is actually how most middle class people in the Caribbean speak these days.
4. In Guadeloupe, Martinique and Guyane, they still most protest against "colonialism" and still most adapt an oppositional culture to assert their space. Thanks for bringing to life their daily struggle to survive against a French hegemony which remains determined to erase any aspects of their culture, except for the "folkloric" elements. This is like the Anglophone Caribbean in the 50s.
5. Thanks for telling me that you have never been to St K because NO ONE there speaks with an American accent, and if they did so, they would be laughed at for scorn.
1. This really applies only to History class/Social Studies and I agree, the fact that France imposes its Gallic-centric curriculum on the DOM-TOM is silly. However, this is no different to how Black American children are taught history in the US, or Black Brits are taught history in the UK. If you're Black and happen to be administered by a majority-white country, you're basically going to have to teach your children about their history yourself.
2. Because regardless of whether or not they enjoy Bouyon and Dancehall, the fact is that they still make it themselves using cultural references that are relevant to them.
Furthermore, many of the "folkloric" traditions that Guadeloupe and Martinique are struggling to preserve have already been completely wiped out in Trinidad, Grenada, etc. So my point still stands.
3. I honestly don't think you interact much with people under the age of 40.
4. Never said Guadeloupe and Martinique weren't under French Hegemony. I just said that what you were describing was utter hyperbole and I stand by that.
5. Again, I REALLY doubt that you interact often with people under the age of 40. The amount of American slang that comes out of the mouths of Kittitians my age is quite comical.
Comparing culturally distinct nations again. Trinidad is culturally/ethnically and religiously distinct from Guadeloupe and Martinique anyway. But what folkloric traditions are you speaking about?
There are other traditions in Trinidad that are maintained which are not British or Creole/French-Creole traditions.
Comparing culturally distinct nations again. Trinidad is culturally/ethnically and religiously distinct from Guadeloupe and Martinique anyway. But what folkloric traditions are you speaking about?
Come on now. Trinidad is distinct because of those ratios and other ethnic differences. East Indians are the slight majority in Trinidad (35 percent), with the majority coming from Uttar Pradesh and Bihar and a minority through Chennai. In Martinique, they are no more than 10 percent of the nation, with most being of South Indian origin. Since we are speaking about maintain traditions however, Hindus in Martinique are only 0.5% of the population while in Trinidad they are 18%. Islam is 5% of Trinidad and only 0.2% of Martinique. Martinique is 95% Christian and Trinidad only around 55% Christian (Catholic & Protestant). Trinidad had even larger populations of both Hindus and Muslims in past. When has Martinique or Guadeloupe ever reflected something similar?
Actually, Bele has never died in Trinidad, and neither has Shango (Catholic and African spiritual religions). The Best Village tradition has continued for over 50 years preserving traditions such as Bele. Trinidad also maintains the Shouter/Spiritual Baptist tradition since the early 1800s, which has been given a holiday.
One influence that you neglect to mention is the Spanish heritage of Trinidad, especially reflected in the music but also cuisine. Even the early days of calypso, one could hear some of the parranda/parang influence within the Creole sounds of calypso. That was long after the Spanish lost control. Despite being English-speaking, parang traditions remain. Close proximity to Venezuela has been significant in doing so, but Trinidad's parang is still distinct in itself. It has since spread to Grenada, St. Vincent and St. Lucia.
So while having share much greater similarity, Trinidad has long had distinctions that made it distinct even in the past and that would have inevitably led to the very significant distinction from Martinique and Guadeloupe...that being done by maintaining its traditions.
Come on now. Trinidad is distinct because of those ratios and other ethnic differences. East Indians are the slight majority in Trinidad (35 percent), with the majority coming from Uttar Pradesh and Bihar and a minority through Chennai. In Martinique, they are no more than 10 percent of the nation, with most being of South Indian origin. Since we are speaking about maintain traditions however, Hindus in Martinique are only 0.5% of the population while in Trinidad they are 18%. Islam is 5% of Trinidad and only 0.2% of Martinique. Martinique is 95% Christian and Trinidad only around 55% Christian (Catholic & Protestant). Trinidad had even larger populations of both Hindus and Muslims in past. When has Martinique or Guadeloupe ever reflected something similar?
Actually, Bele has never died in Trinidad, and neither has Shango (Catholic and African spiritual religions). The Best Village tradition has continued for over 50 years preserving traditions such as Bele. Trinidad also maintains the Shouter/Spiritual Baptist tradition since the early 1800s, which has been given a holiday.
One influence that you neglect to mention is the Spanish heritage of Trinidad, especially reflected in the music but also cuisine. Even the early days of calypso, one could hear some of the parranda/parang influence within the Creole sounds of calypso. That was long after the Spanish lost control. Despite being English-speaking, parang traditions remain. Close proximity to Venezuela has been significant in doing so, but Trinidad's parang is still distinct in itself. It has since spread to Grenada, St. Vincent and St. Lucia.
So while having share much greater similarity, Trinidad has long had distinctions that made it distinct even in the past and that would have inevitably led to the very significant distinction from Martinique and Guadeloupe...that being done by maintaining its traditions.
Utterly missed my point but whatever. At no point did I say Trinidad, Martinique and Guadeloupe were one in the same. The argument was that there are many similarities in the past, namely the creole culture, and most of those still survive in the FWI but have died out or been assimilated in Trinidad. Don't know why you're bringing up Parang and Spanish influence, it's not relevant to the discussion.
Utterly missed my point but whatever. At no point did I say Trinidad, Martinique and Guadeloupe were one in the same. The argument was that there are many similarities in the past, namely the creole culture, and most of those still survive in the FWI but have died out or been assimilated in Trinidad. Don't know why you're bringing up Parang and Spanish influence, it's not relevant to the discussion.
Yet these traditions have not really died out, other than the prevalence of the French-Creole language. Bele, which you mentioned specifically, clearly exists in Trinidad. Shango? It exists.
The point of bringing up the parang/spanish as well as the information regarding the East Indian presence and influence and the Spiritual Baptist religion is to counteract your claim that Trinidad was not that distinct. It has long been distinct enough. Traditions in Trinidad significantly include but also extend beyond the Creole culture and have not been wiped out as your posts attempt to assert. The place is full of culture and has distinct cultural identity.
Last edited by ReineDeCoeur; 07-03-2015 at 04:03 PM..
To English speaking people, yes. However to the rest of the world, no. Literally the only Anglophone Caribbean country of any relevance to anyone is Jamaica.
1. This really applies only to History class/Social Studies and I agree, the fact that France imposes its Gallic-centric curriculum on the DOM-TOM is silly. However, this is no different to how Black American children are taught history in the US, or Black Brits are taught history in the UK. If you're Black and happen to be administered by a majority-white country, you're basically going to have to teach your children about their history yourself.
2. Because regardless of whether or not they enjoy Bouyon and Dancehall, the fact is that they still make it themselves using cultural references that are relevant to them.
Furthermore, many of the "folkloric" traditions that Guadeloupe and Martinique are struggling to preserve have already been completely wiped out in Trinidad, Grenada, etc. So my point still stands.
3. I honestly don't think you interact much with people under the age of 40.
4. Never said Guadeloupe and Martinique weren't under French Hegemony. I just said that what you were describing was utter hyperbole and I stand by that.
5. Again, I REALLY doubt that you interact often with people under the age of 40. The amount of American slang that comes out of the mouths of Kittitians my age is quite comical.
And yet Jamaica alone defines the Caribbean more than any other Caribbean nation in the minds of most non Caribbean people, with Cuba being the only other Caribbean nation with high profile.
Face it people are no more interest in the DR than they are in Trinidad.
I will leave you to debate with caribdoll your assertion that Trinidad has no culture, merely because French creole has died out. That is a LAUGH.
1. The Kittitians who speak the deepest dialect are the under 40 crowd.
I don't know how one can visit St K and not interact with the under 40 crowd. Most folks who one meets are going to be under 40, because most of the population is under 40.
In fact I know of a certain 17 year old from Cayon whose ambition is to migrate to NYC. Fine, except if I cannot understand his Kittitian dialect (like most of his age group, standard English hardly escapes from his lips, except when his mother forces him) I don't know how many NYers would.
I really don't know where these yankee sounding Kittitians come from. Their music is pretty much confined to local jam band music and dance hall. You will hear more rap in Guadeloupe. Your relatives might have special problems but they are NOT typical.
2. This debate came about as we were comparing the three Guyana's. Guyana and Suriname are independent, and lying outside of the tourist circuit, so make few concessions to foreigners.
French Guyana is PART OF FRANCE, and as an EU country must conform to EU roles. Its local culture will be folkloric, much as that of Sicily is, but its governance, its educational systems and much of its media will conform to France.Much of its top leadership, both public and private sector, are metropoles from FRANCE. Being part of France, there is NOTHING that the locals can do about this!
The locals must wage an unceasing battle to keep their cultural identities alive. People living in Guyana and Suriname, two SOVEREIGN nations, do not have to do this. People living in Curacao, a semi autonomous part of the Dutch kingdom, NO NOT HAVE TO DO THIS! Neither in St Maarten, another semi autonomous part of the Dutch kingdom. The French are much more intent in forcing their "colonials" to be like them than is the case for others in the Caribbean.
3. Black Brits/Americans are minorities within their nations. Antilleans are NOT minorities within their Antillean territories. Indeed they are separated from the France by 5,000 miles. The fact that you compare them to blacks living in the USA and in the UK shows how much my point is valid. People living in Anguilla and the USVI do NOT have the same curriculum as those living on the USA or UK mainlands. In fact Anguillan kids take the SAME CXC exam as do those throughout CARICOM!
Yet these traditions have not really died out, other than the prevalence of the French-Creole language. Bele, which you mentioned specifically, clearly exists in Trinidad. Shango? It exists.
The point of bringing up the parang/spanish as well as the information regarding the East Indian presence and influence and the Spiritual Baptist religion is to counteract your claim that Trinidad was not that distinct. It has long been distinct enough. Traditions in Trinidad significantly include but also extend beyond the Creole culture and have not been wiped out as your posts attempt to assert. The place is full of culture and has distinct cultural identity.
If I wanted to learn about Caribbean culture, but can only visit one country I will pick Trinidad.
Trinidad, is Guyana, Grenada, Martinique, Barbados, Puerto Rico (Venezuela), Jamaica and Cuba.
To suggest that Trinidad lacks a distinct culture is a joke. Furthermore the degree to which Trinidadians practice the varies aspects of their diverse culture rests in decisions that they make. This makes them different from people from Martinique, who are educated in the SAME curriculum as are people from Paris, making NO concessions to their very different heritage.
Martiniquans therefore being forced to wage an endless battle against Metropolitan interests to ensure that Martinique's cultural identity isn't reduced to some cultural show where REGIONAL FRENCH folklore is being shown.
And there is also socio economic panic about locals being squeezed out of economic opportunities by people arriving from some other parts of the EU. A hotel in Guadeloupe can hire people from Europe, and refuse to hire locals and there is NOTHING that any one can do about THAT.
And yet Jamaica alone defines the Caribbean more than any other Caribbean nation in the minds of most non Caribbean people, with Cuba being the only other Caribbean nation with high profile.
Face it people are no more interest in the DR than they are in Trinidad.
I will leave you to debate with caribdoll your assertion that Trinidad has no culture, merely because French creole has died out. That is a LAUGH.
1. The Kittitians who speak the deepest dialect are the under 40 crowd.
I don't know how one can visit St K and not interact with the under 40 crowd. Most folks who one meets are going to be under 40, because most of the population is under 40.
In fact I know of a certain 17 year old from Cayon whose ambition is to migrate to NYC. Fine, except if I cannot understand his Kittitian dialect (like most of his age group, standard English hardly escapes from his lips, except when his mother forces him) I don't know how many NYers would.
I really don't know where these yankee sounding Kittitians come from. Their music is pretty much confined to local jam band music and dance hall. You will hear more rap in Guadeloupe. Your relatives might have special problems but they are NOT typical.
2. This debate came about as we were comparing the three Guyana's. Guyana and Suriname are independent, and lying outside of the tourist circuit, so make few concessions to foreigners.
French Guyana is PART OF FRANCE, and as an EU country must conform to EU roles. Its local culture will be folkloric, much as that of Sicily is, but its governance, its educational systems and much of its media will conform to France.Much of its top leadership, both public and private sector, are metropoles from FRANCE. Being part of France, there is NOTHING that the locals can do about this!
The locals must wage an unceasing battle to keep their cultural identities alive. People living in Guyana and Suriname, two SOVEREIGN nations, do not have to do this. People living in Curacao, a semi autonomous part of the Dutch kingdom, NO NOT HAVE TO DO THIS! Neither in St Maarten, another semi autonomous part of the Dutch kingdom. The French are much more intent in forcing their "colonials" to be like them than is the case for others in the Caribbean.
3. Black Brits/Americans are minorities within their nations. Antilleans are NOT minorities within their Antillean territories. Indeed they are separated from the France by 5,000 miles. The fact that you compare them to blacks living in the USA and in the UK shows how much my point is valid. People living in Anguilla and the USVI do NOT have the same curriculum as those living on the USA or UK mainlands. In fact Anguillan kids take the SAME CXC exam as do those throughout CARICOM!
Dude don't talk about my family. For someone in their 50s to be unable to have a disagreement without resorting to petty jabs at people's relatives is ridiculous. How childish.
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