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Old 12-11-2012, 04:55 PM
 
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IMO, what is going on in Michigan is going to shake the landscape of the dying power of Unions throughout this country. I never thought Michigan would become a Right to Work State due to the UAW influence around Detroit. After Indiana did it within the past year, I can see the Dominos start to fall with Michigan today.

I personally do not advocate unions despite living in NY for many years. I think it promotes "The Good Ole' Boy Network". Meaning qualified people are disqualified because no one on the inside will "refer them". Wages are grossly inflated which causes laziness. Turning a few screws and bolts for $30/hr in Detroit to me is ridiculous.Through the "laziness", firing someone is next to impossible due to the "protections" of being in a Union.

So with that said, I'd be curious to hear what effect Labor Unions would have on the Arizona Economy if we were to encourage them. States to our west have organized Unions. So does New Mexico. Do you want "Protection by paying dues", or get by on merit which is the cut and dried approach of "Right to Work" without the Red Tape afforded to bloated Union Workers.

 
Old 12-11-2012, 05:04 PM
 
Location: Sierra Vista, AZ
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Wages would go up and Unions would force illegals out of jobs.
 
Old 12-11-2012, 05:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boompa View Post
Wages would go up and Unions would force illegals out of jobs.
My folks in NY were in the Teachers Union before retiring. Despite their pensions, they were the first to say how lazy some of their staff became once they got their tenure. There were young and hungry college grads not able to get in the door because lazy 50 and 60 year olds were coasting their way to retirement since they got their tenure. My folks said many called in sick as much as 50 times a year. Close to 1/4 of the school year. Yet, nothing is done because the only way to get fired was to assault a student verbally or physically.

I do not think illegals would be "forced out". Most small construction outfits will continue to pay them off the books. That's not just an Arizona thing either.
 
Old 12-11-2012, 05:53 PM
 
Location: Metro Phoenix, AZ USA
17,915 posts, read 43,311,267 times
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Right to work and "getting by on merit" are not the same thing. Right to work just means you don't have to join, or not join, a union to get a particular job. "Employment at will" means you can fire a person for no reason or a good reason , but not for a "bad" reason-- a reason that violates law or public policy.
 
Old 12-11-2012, 06:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by observer53 View Post
Right to work and "getting by on merit" are not the same thing. Right to work just means you don't have to join, or not join, a union to get a particular job. "Employment at will" means you can fire a person for no reason or a good reason , but not for a "bad" reason-- a reason that violates law or public policy.
Sorry for not clarifying better Observer. My point is not being under pressure to pay union dues breaks down the "Good Ole' Boy Network" where only those who are referred get in and those without the connections are left out in the cold. To me it evens the playing field. It keeps workers hungry since they don't have the protections that create coasting. Some people naturally become lazy in a union which over the years has led to the issues in the Northeastern part of the country in the last 30 years.
 
Old 12-11-2012, 06:06 PM
 
Location: Southern Arizona
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Thankfully, Magnum, a conscientious, hard working employee does NOT need a union nowadays.

Unions protect and give security to the lazy, worthless employees while the business or organization declines in product and/or service quality.
 
Old 12-11-2012, 06:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bummer View Post
Thankfully, Magnum, a conscientious, hard working employee does NOT need a union nowadays.

Unions protect and give security to the lazy, worthless employees while the business or organization declines in product and/or service quality.
I saw Unions fall on their faces starting in the early 80's in NY (outside of the Teachers Union). When corporations demand $30/hr Union Labor to do work for $3/hr south of the border, they take their ball and move. I believe if wages weren't grossly inflated, we'd have fewer jobs leaving our country. No doubt about it. The UAW is the most despicable. Atleast Carpenters and Iron Workers bust their butts hundreds of feet in the air for $25/hr. Never begrudged them. It's people sweeping floors in Ford and GM that make $25/hr that has created the mess.
 
Old 12-11-2012, 07:19 PM
 
Location: Sonoran Desert
39,024 posts, read 51,075,331 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnum0417 View Post
I saw Unions fall on their faces starting in the early 80's in NY (outside of the Teachers Union). When corporations demand $30/hr Union Labor to do work for $3/hr south of the border, they take their ball and move. I believe if wages weren't grossly inflated, we'd have fewer jobs leaving our country. No doubt about it. The UAW is the most despicable. Atleast Carpenters and Iron Workers bust their butts hundreds of feet in the air for $25/hr. Never begrudged them. It's people sweeping floors in Ford and GM that make $25/hr that has created the mess.
But how do people get by on three bucks an hour? That is what the problem in AZ is. Jobs pay so lousy because of all the cheap foreign workers here that we are one of the poorest states in the country. It is not just wages. Those wages go to taxes and taxes fund things like schools. Union states have the best schools in the country whereas right to work states like AZ are so far behind the curve that companies don't want to come here even though labor is cheap.

I worked with union crews all my career as a project engineer. It was not the wages that were hard to deal with, but the work rules sometimes. On the other hand, we got very well trained people from the union and they were there on time and worked hard till quitting time. It's a mixed bag in my book, but I think the union bashing is more political philosophy than economic reality in many ways.
 
Old 12-11-2012, 08:34 PM
 
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Let's see if the union busting since about 1980 was such a great victory and for whom. Let's compare two periods where I have the data hand - 1946-76 and 1976-2006. In the first period, unions were strong and in the second period, unions all but disappeared.
1946-76: Real national income gain 90%, income gain going to lower 90% of households 83%, to upper 10% - 17%
1976-06: Real national income gain 64%, income gain going to lower 90% of households 10%, to upper 10% - 90%
Arguanbly, not all these differences are due to unions being strong or weak, but union strength is one of the key differences between both periods. Let's see what we got from that:
Weak unions lower our national income drastically - real GNI grew by a third (!) less. Is that what you want for our nation?
Weak unions ensure that almost all income gains go only to the top 10%, whoose share of the overall income gain grew from 17% to 90%. Weak unions thereby ensure that the middle class disappears / goes broke.

Therefore, if your goals are to make our nation less prosperous as a whole and particularly eliminate the middle class, union busting is a proven method. My question to the O.P. is why he wants to do this to our Great Nation?
 
Old 12-11-2012, 11:16 PM
 
2,770 posts, read 5,706,702 times
Reputation: 5079
No discussion about unions is possible without first differentiating public versus private.
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